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December 18, 2008, 09:50 AM | #26 | |
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thinking about it i realized that if i was wearing a fixed blade knife on my weak side, that must mean some kind of SHTF, because otherwise im not going to walk around with a fixed blade knife on either side.
just as likely to walk around with a bowling ball in my back pocket. im not preparing for combat, im going to get a pizza, so i takes my chances i guess. ya'll carry on....
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Last edited by alloy; December 18, 2008 at 10:03 AM. Reason: sudden attack of reason. |
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December 18, 2008, 11:04 AM | #27 | |
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December 18, 2008, 11:11 AM | #28 |
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I had a guy struggle with me (unarmed) and I took his gun away. Just grabbed it, twisted it out of his hand and had it pointing at him almost before he could say "don't shoot!". Now, whether it was he or I that was the BG is a matter of opinion.
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December 18, 2008, 11:46 AM | #29 |
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Retention Tips
Wow, I really stirred up a hornet's nest of opinion, but I guess that's good.
Gun 4 Fun is right: retention techniques are best practiced in the dojo, but here's some food for thought; a) if somebody grabs your gun, it's best not to "resist" in opposition to him. In other words, if he pulls, don't pull back. The old Judo adage is "When your attacker pulls, push; when your attacker pushes, pull." The goal is to keep your attacker off balance; b) as you pull in reaction to his "push" (or push in reaction to his "pull,") twist and turn your body, so that he is thrown away from you--hopefully, over your bent leg ("tai-otoshi"); c) your attacker will probably be obessed with your gun, i.e. all his energy will be focused on that; you, meanwhile, don't have to be overly foucused on the battle between his hands and your hands. What I mean is, while he is focused on your hands, you can use your feet: stomp his foot, kick his shin with the instep of your shoe (hurts like the blazes), drive you knee into his thigh (you haven't lived until you know what that feels like); and use your head, i.e., head butt him on the bridge of his nose, or against his ear---all the while twisting his wrists. d) You can also roar into his face ("ki-ay"); a terrifying roar fills you with fighting spirit, while making him think of better things to do with his time; a good roar also alerts those around you to the crisis (if they don't help, at least you have witnesses). BTW, a blood curdling roar can be perfected in your car as you drive, with the windows rolled up--anywhere else, other than the dojo, will make people think you're having a very bad day. I've only used martial arts once on the street--foiling a purse snatcher, and holding him on the ground in a proper submission until the cops came---and I think what scared this tough guy the most was my roar; he thought he was struggling with a maniac. And, of course, that's what I wanted him to think. It's very important not to fight your attacker's wrist strength with your wrist strength, as he tries to wrench your gun away from you---especially if you're an old fart like me. You want to change your focus, so that you are attacking him high and low, and twisting and turning your torso, while hanging on to your gun all the while. I'm sure Gun 4 Fun can help us here with more tips. Hopefully none of us will ever be in this position, but it's good to think about it and to practice occasionally. Happy Holidays Dan |
December 18, 2008, 11:47 AM | #30 | ||||
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I think there has been a misunderstanding.
Quote:
When practicing “in your dojo”, is it against someone actively trying to attack, or is it against a “hold this knife out and come at me like this”? Do you have to defend against a dynamic situation where someone is pressing the attack, or is it a well choreographed “stick the knife out and I’ll grab your arm, etc.”? Quote:
I also think there is some selective reading going on. What I also said was: Quote:
I’m not spouting off as you put it, I’m making an observation that when I’ve seen things like disarming techniques demonstrated, they don’t seem to look like a real attack. Quote:
I don’t even know how this discussion got turned into this. My main point was in an attack there may be some hesitation while your mind processes what is happening and you are deciding if it’s really time to draw and fire. |
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December 18, 2008, 05:24 PM | #31 |
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I would like to apologize to any and all I may have offended. I believe I was arguing with two people and may have directed my comments to both parties instead of the person they actually were intended for. That said, this got off on the subject of weapon retention because in post number 7, I pointed out that I might hesitate to shoot for amoment due to my surroudings, and the fact that I might accidently hit an innocent bystander. Someone else posted that all that mattered to them was saving their own hide. I disagree. We have a responcibility to keep from harming anyone not involved.
I then went on to say that if we pause before shooting or are suddenly attacked we need to be able to retain our weapon. As far as the training you referred to, I have been in on that as well. You are correct that some of it is "goofy". But, like I posted any training at all is better than no training. At least going through the motions will give a person the basic understanding of the principles involved. Obviously, you'll have to step up the intensity in real life combat situations. I have come home seriously sore ,and bruised. I have even had my right leg broken just above the ankle in two places training hard, so no, we don't always go full bore. I'm not trying to claimto be something I'm not either. I'm just an average guy, who had/has a love of the martial arts, as well as firearms and tried to combine them whenever possible. CDRogers- You are obviously for real. Most people outside of the "arts" would not know what tai-otoshi is. or osoto-gari . Or Kiai, for that matter. Your last post was very well stated in my opinion. Kiai, for anyone interested is simply the word yell in japanese. If done correctly it serves several purposes, one of which has already been stated by CDRogers, and is an extremely useful tool in weapon retention, as well as disarm techniques. dbl brl daryl- I applaud your determination to fight back as forcefully as possible. Most people will say that, but will hesitate when attacked violently and without warning. That's why constant training and mental preparation are so important, as well as drilling in every technique you can find, even if some of it is lame. |
December 18, 2008, 06:00 PM | #32 |
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You never let the BG close enough to touch you or your weapon if you do you shouldn't be carrying.. Carry mace or something that won't kill you when it is turned on you
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December 18, 2008, 06:15 PM | #33 | |
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December 19, 2008, 04:14 AM | #34 |
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Muscle memory can be a good thing.
This can be from either, or both, arms training or "empty handed" training. What is truly important with either is the mindset included with the training. Weapons should truly be a "last resort" option for the majority of folks who carry them. Likewise "empty handed" training should also be a "last resort" option, again for the majority of folks. Out of 100 fights, you win the 100 that you do not engage in. But, if need be and the line is crossed and life or limb is threatened, the goal is to end the threat right now. And I for one continue to pray to know if and when that line is crossed; and may you are yours never have it crossed for you.
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December 19, 2008, 12:23 PM | #35 | |
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Primary defense here is to use a bladed stance for a potential bad guy, the so called interview stance. This involves keeping your weak side forward, strong side back (assuming a strong-side hip carry.) If you get rushed, you can use your weak arm to block or hold off the bad guy for the time it takes to draw and fire, usually executing a speed rock draw where the gun is fired as soon as it clears the holster (one handed) - target is at contact range. It's simple, and it works even if the bad guy comes down on top of you, as you only need time and space to clear leather and fire. The bladed stance works very well with a weaver or modified weaver stance, too. |
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December 19, 2008, 09:58 PM | #36 |
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Thanks JollyRoger-That is almost exactly what I came back to this thread to post tonight!
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December 19, 2008, 10:41 PM | #37 |
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I recommend that if you confront someone with your pistol, do not stick it out in front of you in Hollywood fashion. Keep it tucked in at your side with the barrel just ahead of your torso. Keep it slightly away from your body. A revolver ejects hot gasses and a semi-auto needs room to cycle the slide. That is one reason why you keep it ahead of your torso and out a little. You can hold it at belt level, or up higher, but keep the barrel just ahead of your torso.
If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second. To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking. Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so.
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December 19, 2008, 10:51 PM | #38 | |
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thanks guys, along those lines...this is what i have been trying to get more practiced at recently(when i can get to the range early enough for it to be empty) that seems to mirror the last few posts. starting at 4.00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH...next=1&index=4
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December 20, 2008, 01:43 AM | #39 |
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That's an interesting video, but I would not do that exact drill with a revolver. Remember that any kind of aggression directed at your antagonists face will get him to bring his hands up to ward it off, allowing you to draw with much less chance of him grabbing your weapon or drawing hand. The same principals apply when trying to retain your gun if he does grab for it. Something else to remember, if he does get ahold of your gun or gun hand, and is trying to wrench it away from you, you have to strike fast to effective areas on the face, then get your weak hand on the gun in a two fisted hold. You may take blows to the face, but if you give up your gun you will be dead. If it does become a struggle for posession of the gun, keep your opponent off balance by twisting and turning, changing directions quickly and sharply, working on the weakest part of his grip-the open side between his fingers and thumb. While doing all this you need to keep striking with your head, feet, elbows and anything else you can move, like a sharp knee to the outside of the thigh, at a point just about exactly where your fingertips would be if you held your arm down your side with fingers extended. The moment you get free from your attacker with your gun, back up several steps, never crossing your legs behind you. If you have an auto, rack the slide fully, whether or not the gun has been fired. During a struggle, the slide may have been moved enough to tie up the firing mechanism. Also slam the magazine bottom, to be sure it is seated. Some guns have a magazine disconnect that may render the gun inoperable with the mag only a 1/4" out of position. I have one that does exactly that, and it would be very likely during a struggle that the magazine release would be hit. The list goes on.....
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December 20, 2008, 11:17 AM | #40 |
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Yes!!
Great advice, Gun 4 Fun. |
December 20, 2008, 11:42 AM | #41 |
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I can't help but notice no one is adding:
If you are struggling over a firearm and the muzzle is pointed in the right direction (i.e. towards the aggressor) pulling the trigger repeatedly probably won't be a bad idea. At least for me, not having much training in the way of hand to hand combat, I would plan on a quick hard blow to the face chin or throat with my weak hand then firing from a retention position as fast as I can. Failing this, if I am in a struggle for a handgun, I'm taking any opportunity to put bullets into my adversary, even if his hands are on my gun. Yes I know semiautos won't fire out of battery and so on, but theres a chance, especially with me pulling backward on it, it will fire. I would think 165 grains of lead and copper passing through a guys belly would have a good chance of loosening his grip. If it doesn't fire, I guess you just have to fight for that gun like your life depends on it because at that point it does. Also, as gun4fun said, when you do get him off of you: step back, Tap, Rack, Bang. |
December 20, 2008, 01:47 PM | #42 |
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Yes, definately try to shoot is sorry butt. I just assumed we were all in agreement on that. Just remember that when struggling for the gun, there's a delay between the brain and hand, and when the decision is made to pull the trigger, during the approximate 1 second reaction time (for an average person) the gun can and probably will be moved from where it was pointing when you made the decision. You SURE don't want that to be in your direction!
dbl bbl daryl- it sounds like you already have a good idea of what to do, so I'd say your chances are better than most peoples. I can't tell you how many people seem to think that simply being armed or a gun fan will give them the upper edge. If by some terrible circumstance, you ever have to go through a situation like this, don't have the mind set to strike once or twice and then shoot. Strike rapidly and repeatedly until you have clear and decisive control of the gun. Then shoot until you no longer feel any threat. One other thing to remember for anyone reading this, SHOUT FOR HELP the whole time you are struggling. Bystanders and witnesses will all be able to truthfully tell responding LEO's that, hey, this guy who did the shooting was screaming bloody murder and was in a fight for his life. If the BG lives, you don't want him to be able to turn the whole thing around on you and say that you were actually the aggressor, and that he was actually struggling for his life. Scream for help, and for someone to call the cops, even if you can see that your getting the upper hand in the fight. |
December 20, 2008, 04:03 PM | #43 | |
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December 20, 2008, 07:55 PM | #44 |
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If I have a gun and I let a bad guy get close enough to me that I have negated my ability to use the gun,then I have committed a very serious error in my awareness of what is going on around me.
My gun comes out at anytime,it's likely to be fired right away. I won't be pulling it to scare a bad guy. You cannot let someone that might hurt you,get that close to you. If I am aware of the person,I will establish my personal perimeter and he will obey that perimeter or get shot. |
December 21, 2008, 02:42 AM | #45 |
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"...the BG trying to take the gun away from US..." You made a tactical error by letting him get that close. Oh and Bruce Lee was supposedly shot in the back. His son was killed with a blank on a movie set. Martial arts didn't help either.
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December 21, 2008, 05:27 AM | #46 | |
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Quote:
Gap flash can be pretty useful. I've considered a ported .44Mag snub as an even more retainable weapon. |
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December 21, 2008, 06:24 AM | #47 | ||
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Training Extreme Close Quarters
Quote:
I can assure you that it is full speed and force. There are only a few role-players that I allow to be the adversary in these drills and we don't let students go against students. Applying an appropriate amount of force, pushing the student to his limits and in-role coaching has always been a big part of ECQT training. This program became especially popular with military clients during the lifetime of VTC and we've recently been asked to start it up again for another military unit at their site. It will result in some bumps and bruises, but should not result in injury if done responsibly. That said, we've had a few small connective tissue and laceration injuries over the years and plenty of sore muscles, but we've also had hundreds of students go through this training. The 2-3 day ECQT course that we teach includes S.P.E.A.R. Fundamentals, excerpts from the G.R.A.C.I.E. grappling program and some close quarters striking with the contact/retention shooting principles (which are also available on DVD). I'm sure that Shivworks and I.C.E. aren't the only ones doing this type of training. Quote:
1. We teach to move-in whenever space, awareness and athleticism allow to prevent/disrupt a close quarters attack rather than trying to create space or go to your own weapons. Generally we use "two arms reach" as the guideline. 2. The biggest "mistakes" we see in close quarters gun handling are sloppy presentations from the holster that sweep the gun away from the body before the muzzle is oriented towards the threat, giving the BG the opportunity to interfere with/grab the gun before they can be significantly affected by it and ready positions that don't keep the gun close to the body after a shooting in a confined/crowded area, causing the sam problem. Fixing both of these starts with good practices when going through "normal" defensive shooting training, with methods that are consistent with good retention practices. -RJP |
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December 21, 2008, 09:49 AM | #48 |
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"QUOTE Teuthis
I recommend that if you confront someone with your pistol, do not stick it out in front of you in Hollywood fashion. Keep it tucked in at your side with the barrel just ahead of your torso. Keep it slightly away from your body. A revolver ejects hot gasses and a semi-auto needs room to cycle the slide. That is one reason why you keep it ahead of your torso and out a little. You can hold it at belt level, or up higher, but keep the barrel just ahead of your torso. If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second. To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking. Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so." Thats exactly what I had to do a BG charged me & I fended him off with my Streamlight once and as I was backpedalling, he came up with a knife . I drew, shortstopping my weapon by my side as I fended him one more time weak hand with my light and fired into his chest taking him down with one round. When I fired my revolvers trigger guard was against my side with my strong side bladed away from him and the revolver rotated 90 degrees. __________________
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December 21, 2008, 10:03 AM | #49 | |
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Last edited by Neverwinter; December 21, 2008 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Rewording of argument |
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December 21, 2008, 06:49 PM | #50 | |
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Merry Christmas to everyone!!! |
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