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Old December 18, 2008, 09:50 AM   #26
alloy
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thinking about it i realized that if i was wearing a fixed blade knife on my weak side, that must mean some kind of SHTF, because otherwise im not going to walk around with a fixed blade knife on either side.

just as likely to walk around with a bowling ball in my back pocket. im not preparing for combat, im going to get a pizza, so i takes my chances i guess.

ya'll carry on....
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Last edited by alloy; December 18, 2008 at 10:03 AM. Reason: sudden attack of reason.
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Old December 18, 2008, 11:04 AM   #27
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Those that carry folding knives on their weakside need to carry a fixed blade.
If you are carrying a lawfully concealed firearm, then likely any knife you carry on your belt will be concealed as well. Concealed Fixed Blade Knives pose a legal problem in many States.
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Old December 18, 2008, 11:11 AM   #28
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I had a guy struggle with me (unarmed) and I took his gun away. Just grabbed it, twisted it out of his hand and had it pointing at him almost before he could say "don't shoot!". Now, whether it was he or I that was the BG is a matter of opinion.
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Old December 18, 2008, 11:46 AM   #29
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Retention Tips

Wow, I really stirred up a hornet's nest of opinion, but I guess that's good.

Gun 4 Fun is right: retention techniques are best practiced in the dojo, but here's some food for thought; a) if somebody grabs your gun, it's best not to "resist" in opposition to him. In other words, if he pulls, don't pull back. The old Judo adage is "When your attacker pulls, push; when your attacker pushes, pull." The goal is to keep your attacker off balance; b) as you pull in reaction to his "push" (or push in reaction to his "pull,") twist and turn your body, so that he is thrown away from you--hopefully, over your bent leg ("tai-otoshi"); c) your attacker will probably be obessed with your gun, i.e. all his energy will be focused on that; you, meanwhile, don't have to be overly foucused on the battle between his hands and your hands. What I mean is, while he is focused on your hands, you can use your feet: stomp his foot, kick his shin with the instep of your shoe (hurts like the blazes), drive you knee into his thigh (you haven't lived until you know what that feels like); and use your head, i.e., head butt him on the bridge of his nose, or against his ear---all the while twisting his wrists. d) You can also roar into his face ("ki-ay"); a terrifying roar fills you with fighting spirit, while making him think of better things to do with his time; a good roar also alerts those around you to the crisis (if they don't help, at least you have witnesses). BTW, a blood curdling roar can be perfected in your car as you drive, with the windows rolled up--anywhere else, other than the dojo, will make people think you're having a very bad day. I've only used martial arts once on the street--foiling a purse snatcher, and holding him on the ground in a proper submission until the cops came---and I think what scared this tough guy the most was my roar; he thought he was struggling with a maniac. And, of course, that's what I wanted him to think.

It's very important not to fight your attacker's wrist strength with your wrist strength, as he tries to wrench your gun away from you---especially if you're an old fart like me. You want to change your focus, so that you are attacking him high and low, and twisting and turning your torso, while hanging on to your gun all the while.

I'm sure Gun 4 Fun can help us here with more tips.

Hopefully none of us will ever be in this position, but it's good to think about it and to practice occasionally.

Happy Holidays

Dan
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Old December 18, 2008, 11:47 AM   #30
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I think there has been a misunderstanding.
Quote:
While your hands are busy trying to break the BG's trachea or nose, his will be doing the same thing to yours.
That’s kinda my point exactly. In most of the demonstrations I’ve seen, this is not the case. The “bad guy” will do something like lunge with a knife, arm extended, elbow locked, and then freeze once contact has been made. I would very much like to see some demonstrations where an attacker is violently slashing (at full speed) and trying to maintain his attack; even after making contact with the other party.
When practicing “in your dojo”, is it against someone actively trying to attack, or is it against a “hold this knife out and come at me like this”? Do you have to defend against a dynamic situation where someone is pressing the attack, or is it a well choreographed “stick the knife out and I’ll grab your arm, etc.”?
Quote:
If you're so confident in your ability to injure or kill someone with your hands, why carry a gun? Like I said earlier, it's better to train as best as possible, than to come on here and spout off about something you obviously know little about.
I'm not one of these "my hands are deadly weapons" guys, but if I am in a struggle I am going to try to land the most severe blow I can in order to get the attacker off of me and draw or retain my weapon. I don’t have the formal training that you obviously do, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to defend myself.
I also think there is some selective reading going on. What I also said was:
Quote:
I'm not saying there aren't good techniques, just that all the ones I've seen tend to be defending against someone who is basically a prop and does not really violently attack or attempt to disarm. I've not seen any that look like what a real life situation would look like.
On that note I have actually been thinking about looking into some local schools to see if they offer any training geared toward this.
I would like to see what they have to offer. I would also like to practice trying to retain a weapon during an attack.

I’m not spouting off as you put it, I’m making an observation that when I’ve seen things like disarming techniques demonstrated, they don’t seem to look like a real attack.

Quote:
I've never been to a range where someone let me shoot at them while they were shooting at me. Target practice and shooting drills all lack the element of danger that a real life street attack does.
If you want to make that analogy, obviously you can’t put on bullet proof vests and practice a real shootout. You could theoretically put on gear and practice weapon retention or disarming techniques against someone actively trying to maintain an attack – with real striking and grappling. I haven’t seen this done, which is why I don't like the demonstrations I've seen – maybe “in your dojo” you do train like this.

I don’t even know how this discussion got turned into this. My main point was in an attack there may be some hesitation while your mind processes what is happening and you are deciding if it’s really time to draw and fire.
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Old December 18, 2008, 05:24 PM   #31
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I would like to apologize to any and all I may have offended. I believe I was arguing with two people and may have directed my comments to both parties instead of the person they actually were intended for. That said, this got off on the subject of weapon retention because in post number 7, I pointed out that I might hesitate to shoot for amoment due to my surroudings, and the fact that I might accidently hit an innocent bystander. Someone else posted that all that mattered to them was saving their own hide. I disagree. We have a responcibility to keep from harming anyone not involved.

I then went on to say that if we pause before shooting or are suddenly attacked we need to be able to retain our weapon.
As far as the training you referred to, I have been in on that as well. You are correct that some of it is "goofy". But, like I posted any training at all is better than no training. At least going through the motions will give a person the basic understanding of the principles involved. Obviously, you'll have to step up the intensity in real life combat situations. I have come home seriously sore ,and bruised. I have even had my right leg broken just above the ankle in two places training hard, so no, we don't always go full bore. I'm not trying to claimto be something I'm not either. I'm just an average guy, who had/has a love of the martial arts, as well as firearms and tried to combine them whenever possible.

CDRogers- You are obviously for real. Most people outside of the "arts" would not know what tai-otoshi is. or osoto-gari . Or Kiai, for that matter. Your last post was very well stated in my opinion. Kiai, for anyone interested is simply the word yell in japanese. If done correctly it serves several purposes, one of which has already been stated by CDRogers, and is an extremely useful tool in weapon retention, as well as disarm techniques.

dbl brl daryl- I applaud your determination to fight back as forcefully as possible. Most people will say that, but will hesitate when attacked violently and without warning. That's why constant training and mental preparation are so important, as well as drilling in every technique you can find, even if some of it is lame.
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Old December 18, 2008, 06:00 PM   #32
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You never let the BG close enough to touch you or your weapon if you do you shouldn't be carrying.. Carry mace or something that won't kill you when it is turned on you
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Old December 18, 2008, 06:15 PM   #33
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Quote:
You never let the BG close enough to touch you or your weapon if you do you shouldn't be carrying.. Carry mace or something that won't kill you when it is turned on you
Unfortunately that's not always possible. When someone paints you as a target, they aren't always going to walk up and let you know their intentions. Stating that you'll never allow a BG to close the distance on you is foolish at best, dangerously over confident at worst. If it were really that simple then we wouldn't need to carry weapons, since we'd be able to simply avoid the BG before the conflict starts. Just my .02
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Old December 19, 2008, 04:14 AM   #34
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Muscle memory can be a good thing.

This can be from either, or both, arms training or "empty handed" training.

What is truly important with either is the mindset included with the training.

Weapons should truly be a "last resort" option for the majority of folks who carry them.

Likewise "empty handed" training should also be a "last resort" option, again for the majority of folks.

Out of 100 fights, you win the 100 that you do not engage in.

But, if need be and the line is crossed and life or limb is threatened, the goal is to end the threat right now.

And I for one continue to pray to know if and when that line is crossed; and may you are yours never have it crossed for you.
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Old December 19, 2008, 12:23 PM   #35
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Quote:
is anyone gonna throw out a weapons retention tip for the uninitiated or should i stop reading this thread now?
Not to dive into the fray about whether a CCW would shoot or hesitate, but even for the most skilled individual, reaction time is still going to be about a half a second. If you're in close, that's a lot of time for a bad guy to be on you.

Primary defense here is to use a bladed stance for a potential bad guy, the so called interview stance. This involves keeping your weak side forward, strong side back (assuming a strong-side hip carry.) If you get rushed, you can use your weak arm to block or hold off the bad guy for the time it takes to draw and fire, usually executing a speed rock draw where the gun is fired as soon as it clears the holster (one handed) - target is at contact range. It's simple, and it works even if the bad guy comes down on top of you, as you only need time and space to clear leather and fire.

The bladed stance works very well with a weaver or modified weaver stance, too.
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Old December 19, 2008, 09:58 PM   #36
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Thanks JollyRoger-That is almost exactly what I came back to this thread to post tonight!
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Old December 19, 2008, 10:41 PM   #37
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I recommend that if you confront someone with your pistol, do not stick it out in front of you in Hollywood fashion. Keep it tucked in at your side with the barrel just ahead of your torso. Keep it slightly away from your body. A revolver ejects hot gasses and a semi-auto needs room to cycle the slide. That is one reason why you keep it ahead of your torso and out a little. You can hold it at belt level, or up higher, but keep the barrel just ahead of your torso.

If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second.

To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking.

Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so.
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Old December 19, 2008, 10:51 PM   #38
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thanks guys, along those lines...this is what i have been trying to get more practiced at recently(when i can get to the range early enough for it to be empty) that seems to mirror the last few posts. starting at 4.00 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH...next=1&index=4
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Old December 20, 2008, 01:43 AM   #39
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That's an interesting video, but I would not do that exact drill with a revolver. Remember that any kind of aggression directed at your antagonists face will get him to bring his hands up to ward it off, allowing you to draw with much less chance of him grabbing your weapon or drawing hand. The same principals apply when trying to retain your gun if he does grab for it. Something else to remember, if he does get ahold of your gun or gun hand, and is trying to wrench it away from you, you have to strike fast to effective areas on the face, then get your weak hand on the gun in a two fisted hold. You may take blows to the face, but if you give up your gun you will be dead. If it does become a struggle for posession of the gun, keep your opponent off balance by twisting and turning, changing directions quickly and sharply, working on the weakest part of his grip-the open side between his fingers and thumb. While doing all this you need to keep striking with your head, feet, elbows and anything else you can move, like a sharp knee to the outside of the thigh, at a point just about exactly where your fingertips would be if you held your arm down your side with fingers extended. The moment you get free from your attacker with your gun, back up several steps, never crossing your legs behind you. If you have an auto, rack the slide fully, whether or not the gun has been fired. During a struggle, the slide may have been moved enough to tie up the firing mechanism. Also slam the magazine bottom, to be sure it is seated. Some guns have a magazine disconnect that may render the gun inoperable with the mag only a 1/4" out of position. I have one that does exactly that, and it would be very likely during a struggle that the magazine release would be hit. The list goes on.....
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Old December 20, 2008, 11:17 AM   #40
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Yes!!

Great advice, Gun 4 Fun.
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Old December 20, 2008, 11:42 AM   #41
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I can't help but notice no one is adding:
If you are struggling over a firearm and the muzzle is pointed in the right direction (i.e. towards the aggressor) pulling the trigger repeatedly probably won't be a bad idea.
At least for me, not having much training in the way of hand to hand combat, I would plan on a quick hard blow to the face chin or throat with my weak hand then firing from a retention position as fast as I can.
Failing this, if I am in a struggle for a handgun, I'm taking any opportunity to put bullets into my adversary, even if his hands are on my gun.
Yes I know semiautos won't fire out of battery and so on, but theres a chance, especially with me pulling backward on it, it will fire. I would think 165 grains of lead and copper passing through a guys belly would have a good chance of loosening his grip.
If it doesn't fire, I guess you just have to fight for that gun like your life depends on it because at that point it does.
Also, as gun4fun said, when you do get him off of you: step back, Tap, Rack, Bang.
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Old December 20, 2008, 01:47 PM   #42
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Yes, definately try to shoot is sorry butt. I just assumed we were all in agreement on that. Just remember that when struggling for the gun, there's a delay between the brain and hand, and when the decision is made to pull the trigger, during the approximate 1 second reaction time (for an average person) the gun can and probably will be moved from where it was pointing when you made the decision. You SURE don't want that to be in your direction!

dbl bbl daryl- it sounds like you already have a good idea of what to do, so I'd say your chances are better than most peoples. I can't tell you how many people seem to think that simply being armed or a gun fan will give them the upper edge. If by some terrible circumstance, you ever have to go through a situation like this, don't have the mind set to strike once or twice and then shoot. Strike rapidly and repeatedly until you have clear and decisive control of the gun. Then shoot until you no longer feel any threat. One other thing to remember for anyone reading this, SHOUT FOR HELP the whole time you are struggling. Bystanders and witnesses will all be able to truthfully tell responding LEO's that, hey, this guy who did the shooting was screaming bloody murder and was in a fight for his life. If the BG lives, you don't want him to be able to turn the whole thing around on you and say that you were actually the aggressor, and that he was actually struggling for his life. Scream for help, and for someone to call the cops, even if you can see that your getting the upper hand in the fight.
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Old December 20, 2008, 04:03 PM   #43
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Quote:
Unfortunately that's not always possible. When someone paints you as a target, they aren't always going to walk up and let you know their intentions. Stating that you'll never allow a BG to close the distance on you is foolish at best, dangerously over confident at worst. If it were really that simple then we wouldn't need to carry weapons, since we'd be able to simply avoid the BG before the conflict starts. Just my .02
I agree with this point... We are in "public" afterall. We are living our lives and going about normal activities. We are not jumping into a profile stance everytime somene gets inside your "reactionary gap". Bottom line is that if you carry a weapon, there are certain responsible skills that you need to possess e.g How to safetly handle a firearm, how to fire it in a reasonably proficient manner, how to maintain control over its posession and a reasonable knowledge the laws that govern firearms and use of force.
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Old December 20, 2008, 07:55 PM   #44
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If I have a gun and I let a bad guy get close enough to me that I have negated my ability to use the gun,then I have committed a very serious error in my awareness of what is going on around me.

My gun comes out at anytime,it's likely to be fired right away.

I won't be pulling it to scare a bad guy.

You cannot let someone that might hurt you,get that close to you.

If I am aware of the person,I will establish my personal perimeter and he will obey that perimeter or get shot.
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Old December 21, 2008, 02:42 AM   #45
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"...the BG trying to take the gun away from US..." You made a tactical error by letting him get that close. Oh and Bruce Lee was supposedly shot in the back. His son was killed with a blank on a movie set. Martial arts didn't help either.
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Old December 21, 2008, 05:27 AM   #46
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Quote:
If you are struggling over a firearm and the muzzle is pointed in the right direction (i.e. towards the aggressor) pulling the trigger repeatedly probably won't be a bad idea.
If we're struggling over my .357 snub, and the muzzle is not pointed at me or a bystander, pulling the trigger is quite likely to end the struggle, or at least reduce his usable hands by one. Having gotten my flashlight hand a bit far forward during night practice, I can't imagine hanging on to the gun if one's fingers were actually wrapped over the gap in contact with the frame.

Gap flash can be pretty useful. I've considered a ported .44Mag snub as an even more retainable weapon.
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Old December 21, 2008, 06:24 AM   #47
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Training Extreme Close Quarters

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbl brl daryl
I also think these drills and demonstrations are ridiculous - unless you are attacked by Frankenstein or someone else with really slow reflexes and limited range of motion in their extremities. I don't know how to work on weapon retention, as I feel should involve full force blows to the face or throat to be effective and I don't know anyone who will let me break their nose or crush their trachea to practice this.
With the right protective gear and training methodology this is done regularly. I've been using High Gear impact reduction suits in Extreme Close Quarters Counter ambush training with SWAT, LE, Mil and civilian students since 2001. Shivworks also does good work in this area with high speed contact drills and sim guns. I think they use FIST protective gear. I took the close quarters knife course that they offered earlier in the year in the Denver area and was impressed with the opportunity to go at high speed and with real contact. I'l admit that this is rare and should be done with experienced instructors, but the training is available.

I can assure you that it is full speed and force. There are only a few role-players that I allow to be the adversary in these drills and we don't let students go against students. Applying an appropriate amount of force, pushing the student to his limits and in-role coaching has always been a big part of ECQT training. This program became especially popular with military clients during the lifetime of VTC and we've recently been asked to start it up again for another military unit at their site. It will result in some bumps and bruises, but should not result in injury if done responsibly. That said, we've had a few small connective tissue and laceration injuries over the years and plenty of sore muscles, but we've also had hundreds of students go through this training.

The 2-3 day ECQT course that we teach includes S.P.E.A.R. Fundamentals, excerpts from the G.R.A.C.I.E. grappling program and some close quarters striking with the contact/retention shooting principles (which are also available on DVD).

I'm sure that Shivworks and I.C.E. aren't the only ones doing this type of
training.

Quote:
is anyone gonna throw out a weapons retention tip for the uninitiated or should i stop reading this thread now?
The easiest "tips" that I can throw out are these:

1. We teach to move-in whenever space, awareness and athleticism allow to prevent/disrupt a close quarters attack rather than trying to create space or go to your own weapons. Generally we use "two arms reach" as the guideline.
2. The biggest "mistakes" we see in close quarters gun handling are sloppy presentations from the holster that sweep the gun away from the body before the muzzle is oriented towards the threat, giving the BG the opportunity to interfere with/grab the gun before they can be significantly affected by it and ready positions that don't keep the gun close to the body after a shooting in a confined/crowded area, causing the sam problem. Fixing both of these starts with good practices when going through "normal" defensive shooting training, with methods that are consistent with good retention practices.

-RJP
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Old December 21, 2008, 09:49 AM   #48
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"QUOTE Teuthis
I recommend that if you confront someone with your pistol, do not stick it out in front of you in Hollywood fashion. Keep it tucked in at your side with the barrel just ahead of your torso. Keep it slightly away from your body. A revolver ejects hot gasses and a semi-auto needs room to cycle the slide. That is one reason why you keep it ahead of your torso and out a little. You can hold it at belt level, or up higher, but keep the barrel just ahead of your torso.

If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second.

To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking.

Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so."

Thats exactly what I had to do a BG charged me & I fended him off with my Streamlight once and as I was backpedalling, he came up with a knife . I drew, shortstopping my weapon by my side as I fended him one more time weak hand with my light and fired into his chest taking him down with one round. When I fired my revolvers trigger guard was against my side with my strong side bladed away from him and the revolver rotated 90 degrees.
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Old December 21, 2008, 10:03 AM   #49
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Quote:
"...the BG trying to take the gun away from US..." You made a tactical error by letting him get that close. Oh and Bruce Lee was supposedly shot in the back. His son was killed with a blank on a movie set. Martial arts didn't help either.
As others have said earlier, you don't need traditional martial arts training. Having the capability to deal with an attacker at close range could hardly be considered a bad thing.

Last edited by Neverwinter; December 21, 2008 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Rewording of argument
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Old December 21, 2008, 06:49 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverwinter
As others have said earlier, you don't need traditional martial arts training. Having the capability to deal with an attacker at close range could hardly be considered a bad thing.
Amen! That was my point. Take advantage of anything that will give you the edge in life.
Merry Christmas to everyone!!!
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