video from Orlando area shootout - Page 3

C0untZer0 · April 27, 2011, 12:50 PM

It sure sounds to me like he says that:

http://www.wftv.com/video/27602208/index.html

Un-spliced/edited video w/sound

C0untZer0 · April 27, 2011, 12:57 PM

There's also a woman in the back who says:

"Mmmmmmm... Uh huh..."

It's almost she's talking to the perps saying - "Ahhh see - this is what happens when you mess around - I told ya so - you see what happens?"

C0untZer0 · April 27, 2011, 01:01 PM

Someone else on another forum noted that it wasn't high-capacity that was critical here - it was good aim.

MLeake · April 27, 2011, 01:20 PM

I'd expand that, and say the one who had better aim, and kept his head, came out on top.

PanBaccha · May 3, 2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Florida law allows self defense against retreating criminals so no problem there.

I don't believe that is true. To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. Thin line there!

Double Naught Spy · May 3, 2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

I don't believe that is true. To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. Thin line there!

A person who is moving away from you may or may not be in retreat. They may simply be going for a better vantage position. You can't know their intent until they are gone.

Here is a great example, and from Florida...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...cealed-weapons

Robbers approached CCW holders and tried to rob them. This was a neat fight in a bunch of ways. Not only did the good guys draw on a drawn gun and exchange shots and not only did the bad guy retreat only to start firing anew, but the shot average was way above normal as well. This isn't your typical 3 round gunfight.

Bad guys do sometimes stop firing, "retreat" to better vantage, then re-engage. They never stop being a threat until they are gone.

BTW, no problem with the CCW holders in this shooting either.

Justice06RR · May 3, 2011, 08:16 PM

I live in the Orlando area and its scary to hear these things on the news. +1 to the guard who was able to fire back at the BG's.

In FL we have lax and favorable gun laws like the Castle Doctrine/Stand your ground, and also the law that allows you to shoot a retreating BG. Imagine if a thief broke into your house who seems to be retreating as you confront him but was actually running to another room to barricade himself or steal something else. I have no problem shooting the fooker as he is retreating..

Glenn Bartley · May 3, 2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore.

I think that statement shows a poor understanding of when someone could be an imminent threat. Do you really think you understand the term? I ask that seriously not deridingly because understanding what is an imminent threat could someday save your life and not understanding could get you killed. Had the offender dropped the gun and said something to the effect - I give up, I am leaving and then ran for the door, well it might have been a bad shoot. This guy was apparently still armed with a hand gun. Tell me, was there anything to prevent him from turning and shooting or from shooting over his shoulder or from taking cover at the door way and shooting? If there was not anything to prevent that, or to indicate that he had other intentions such as him surrendering, then why was the threat of harm not imminent since he was still armed with a firearm? Think really hard before you answer, your life may depend on the answer you give.

Glenn Bartley · May 3, 2011, 09:16 PM

Quote:

I heard a total of 6 shots, all I believe from the guard, so that doesn't prove much either other than the last three were right at the end and he may have been emptying his gun (a revolver)?

It seems some blasts come through the window and blinds and the piece of blind lands in the parlor on the floor. The original article also seemed to make it sound as if a shot was fired then the guard shot back.

C0untZer0 · May 3, 2011, 10:00 PM

The last 3 rounds were fired from BG#3 - the getaway driver. He lays his pistol almost on top of the vehicle above the driver's side door and fires 3 shots. The flash from one of the shots is seen in the video.

Also - while the getaway driver was shooting, BG#2 was jumping around and pointing his handgun in the direction of the store.

I don't think BG#2 had a functioning firearm. As soon as the gaurd pulled his weapon, BG#2 ran from the store. Both BG#1 and BG#2 pointed their weapons at the SG and back into the store as they exited (I won't say retreated).

It brings up a point for me. Given that as a group - this group of 3 criminals continued the attack after BG#1 was shot, I'm not sure if you even get into considering any 1 particular guy as being in the process of retreating.

SG was under attack from a group. Given that he was either under fire or had one BG or another pointing their weapons at him, they never really retreated until the car started moving, and SG had long since stopped firing.

DasGuy · May 4, 2011, 12:07 AM

That new video clears up a lot. I'm surprised the guard already reholstered while they were still shooting.

Good thing they didn't decide to come back in.

ClydeFrog · May 4, 2011, 02:56 AM

Another good 2A/pro gun owner law Florida has is a wounded or deceased criminal's estate CAN NOT sue or file a civil action(wrongful death, emotional duress, etc) against a armed citizen who acted lawfully.

Now that's real criminal justice!

As for the gaming parlor event, I haven't really followed the case. All the nitpicking & armchair QBing isn't really going to change the events now.

ClydeFrog

output · May 4, 2011, 07:04 AM

I think this video should serve as a reminder as to just how fast things like this actually go down. I think the guard fared well because his first instinct was to get away from the threats. If he had stood his ground and went for his weapon…this might have ended a lot differently.

C0untZer0 · May 4, 2011, 07:54 AM

Quote:

I think the guard fared well because his first instinct was to get away from the threats. - output

SG had a gun to his head and he decided to brush it off with his right arm. I have no idea why BG#1 didn't shoot the SG right then, maybe a malfuctioning firarm, maybe a bad decision, maybe BG#1 didn't take the pistol off safe - I don't know.

I don't think the decision to struggle with an armed assailant when the assailant has a gun to your head is going to turn out well. In this situation, the gaurd didn't get shot, but I just don't see it as a good decision in most cases.

MLeake · May 4, 2011, 08:14 AM

C0untZer0, surrender might have been the more prudent option, but it's nice that in this case the consequences ended up primarily being suffered by the BG's. Yes, the SG may have some remorse issues and PTSD, and the patrons were probably all scared and my have some PTSD as well, but the injured, dead, and incarcerated are all from the other team.

As far as the gun to the head goes, the fact that the SG could brush away the gun shows why putting a gun literally to somebody's head is not a good idea. If the BG had maintained a just-outside-arm's reach distance, the SG would have had a harder time.

In fact, I'd be more likely to act if the guy got inside arm's reach, than if he did not. Easier to deflect the weapon, while also moving offline.

(Note: doesn't matter what the weapon is, or even if it's a fist - your hands may not achieve what you wanted them to achieve, so getting your body off the line is always a good idea.)

TailGator · May 4, 2011, 08:43 AM

Re the gun to the head: You are already a fraction of a second from death, at the whim of a person who has already shown a propensity for violence. What do you have to lose in fighting back at that point?

Re shooting someone fleeing: There is a huge difference between shooting a fleeing burglar in the back out of anger or revenge and shooting back at someone who is running towards their criminal partners while shooting over their shoulders and/or having their cohorts cover their escape with gunfire. One has to look at the totality of the situation rather than trying to making up rules imagining that one would always or never be prosecuted for shooting at someone moving away from you.

Mr. Davis · May 4, 2011, 08:45 PM

The thing that always amazes me about videos like this is that NOBODY dives for cover. They just sit there while a shootout goes on around them.

Protip: don't be that person.

ClydeFrog · May 11, 2011, 01:00 AM

The last few posts reminds me of the big Casino shoot out in the Kurt Russell action film; 3000 Miles To Graceland.
The film is kinda eh, but the big Las Vegas robbery is worth viewing. www.IMDb.com

I'd say the security guard's actions were based partly on his location. The armed thugs rushed in and it became a CQB type incident.

I'd add that the "remorse" or "PTSD" issues are not really something you can honestly assess w/o fully knowing all the details or backgrounds of the patrons/victims/etc.
As I posted here before, G/armed security officers are NOT considered sworn law enforcement officers by the Florida Div of Licensing or the FDLE(Florida Dept of Law Enforcement). They have NO sworn duty to chase bad guys or make arrests.

Nnobby45 · May 11, 2011, 01:38 AM

Quote:

I don't believe that is true. To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. Thin line there!

Oh STOP IT. The man had fired shots and tried to commit murder. He was still a threat while running with a gun in his hand, since he could, at any second, turn and fire (again)--especially when he reached a barrier like the door.

And, as has been pointed out, he could also run to seek cover from which he'd have a tactical advantage to commit murder of innocent people minding their own business.

Lastly: shouldn't be so quick to judge a security guard fighting for his life and the lives of others during or immediately after an attemp on his life with adrenaline still flowing. The guard performed very well.

OK, I've taken my chill pill.

Oh, and lastley, Proof that 'ol geezers can still shoot--that's the part I like.

ClydeFrog · May 11, 2011, 03:03 AM

Another point I'd like to make to all the keyboard commandos here too is a "lesson learned" from this critical incident is to fire a few rounds at a CQB distance or be able to safely operate your weapon at extremely close ranges.
My security instructor; www.S2Institute.com , made those points & when I can I shoot a few handgun rounds at a paper target or 2 at arm's length or 3-5'. It's not pretty but it may keep you alive.

April 27, 2011, 12:50 PM	#51
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I'm shot! Yo! It sure sounds to me like he says that: http://www.wftv.com/video/27602208/index.html Un-spliced/edited video w/sound

May 4, 2011, 02:56 AM	#62
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Florida; the Sunshine & Pro-gun state.... Another good 2A/pro gun owner law Florida has is a wounded or deceased criminal's estate CAN NOT sue or file a civil action(wrongful death, emotional duress, etc) against a armed citizen who acted lawfully. Now that's real criminal justice! As for the gaming parlor event, I haven't really followed the case. All the nitpicking & armchair QBing isn't really going to change the events now. ClydeFrog

May 4, 2011, 07:04 AM	#63
output Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2008 Posts: 294	I think this video should serve as a reminder as to just how fast things like this actually go down. I think the guard fared well because his first instinct was to get away from the threats. If he had stood his ground and went for his weapon…this might have ended a lot differently. __________________ "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill

May 4, 2011, 08:45 PM	#67
Mr. Davis Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 127	The thing that always amazes me about videos like this is that NOBODY dives for cover. They just sit there while a shootout goes on around them. Protip: don't be that person. __________________ Ultima Ratio Civis - A Citizen's Final Argument

May 11, 2011, 01:00 AM	#68
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	3000 Miles To Graceland... The last few posts reminds me of the big Casino shoot out in the Kurt Russell action film; 3000 Miles To Graceland. The film is kinda eh, but the big Las Vegas robbery is worth viewing. www.IMDb.com I'd say the security guard's actions were based partly on his location. The armed thugs rushed in and it became a CQB type incident. I'd add that the "remorse" or "PTSD" issues are not really something you can honestly assess w/o fully knowing all the details or backgrounds of the patrons/victims/etc. As I posted here before, G/armed security officers are NOT considered sworn law enforcement officers by the Florida Div of Licensing or the FDLE(Florida Dept of Law Enforcement). They have NO sworn duty to chase bad guys or make arrests.

April 27, 2011, 12:57 PM	#52
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	There's also a woman in the back who says: "Mmmmmmm... Uh huh..." It's almost she's talking to the perps saying - "Ahhh see - this is what happens when you mess around - I told ya so - you see what happens?"

April 27, 2011, 01:01 PM	#53
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Someone else on another forum noted that it wasn't high-capacity that was critical here - it was good aim.

April 27, 2011, 01:20 PM	#54
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I'd expand that, and say the one who had better aim, and kept his head, came out on top.

May 3, 2011, 08:16 PM	#57
Justice06RR Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2010 Location: Central FL Posts: 1,360	I live in the Orlando area and its scary to hear these things on the news. +1 to the guard who was able to fire back at the BG's. In FL we have lax and favorable gun laws like the Castle Doctrine/Stand your ground, and also the law that allows you to shoot a retreating BG. Imagine if a thief broke into your house who seems to be retreating as you confront him but was actually running to another room to barricade himself or steal something else. I have no problem shooting the fooker as he is retreating..

May 3, 2011, 10:00 PM	#60
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	The last 3 rounds were fired from BG#3 - the getaway driver. He lays his pistol almost on top of the vehicle above the driver's side door and fires 3 shots. The flash from one of the shots is seen in the video. Also - while the getaway driver was shooting, BG#2 was jumping around and pointing his handgun in the direction of the store. I don't think BG#2 had a functioning firearm. As soon as the gaurd pulled his weapon, BG#2 ran from the store. Both BG#1 and BG#2 pointed their weapons at the SG and back into the store as they exited (I won't say retreated). It brings up a point for me. Given that as a group - this group of 3 criminals continued the attack after BG#1 was shot, I'm not sure if you even get into considering any 1 particular guy as being in the process of retreating. SG was under attack from a group. Given that he was either under fire or had one BG or another pointing their weapons at him, they never really retreated until the car started moving, and SG had long since stopped firing.

May 4, 2011, 12:07 AM	#61
DasGuy Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 318	That new video clears up a lot. I'm surprised the guard already reholstered while they were still shooting. Good thing they didn't decide to come back in.

May 4, 2011, 08:14 AM	#65
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	C0untZer0, surrender might have been the more prudent option, but it's nice that in this case the consequences ended up primarily being suffered by the BG's. Yes, the SG may have some remorse issues and PTSD, and the patrons were probably all scared and my have some PTSD as well, but the injured, dead, and incarcerated are all from the other team. As far as the gun to the head goes, the fact that the SG could brush away the gun shows why putting a gun literally to somebody's head is not a good idea. If the BG had maintained a just-outside-arm's reach distance, the SG would have had a harder time. In fact, I'd be more likely to act if the guy got inside arm's reach, than if he did not. Easier to deflect the weapon, while also moving offline. (Note: doesn't matter what the weapon is, or even if it's a fist - your hands may not achieve what you wanted them to achieve, so getting your body off the line is always a good idea.)

May 4, 2011, 08:43 AM	#66
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	Re the gun to the head: You are already a fraction of a second from death, at the whim of a person who has already shown a propensity for violence. What do you have to lose in fighting back at that point? Re shooting someone fleeing: There is a huge difference between shooting a fleeing burglar in the back out of anger or revenge and shooting back at someone who is running towards their criminal partners while shooting over their shoulders and/or having their cohorts cover their escape with gunfire. One has to look at the totality of the situation rather than trying to making up rules imagining that one would always or never be prosecuted for shooting at someone moving away from you.

May 11, 2011, 03:03 AM	#70
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Hot wash & wax... Another point I'd like to make to all the keyboard commandos here too is a "lesson learned" from this critical incident is to fire a few rounds at a CQB distance or be able to safely operate your weapon at extremely close ranges. My security instructor; www.S2Institute.com , made those points & when I can I shoot a few handgun rounds at a paper target or 2 at arm's length or 3-5'. It's not pretty but it may keep you alive.