Military Brass ?

Glennster · June 20, 2007, 06:09 AM

I've got a pretty big pile of military .223 and .308 brass. Is this good brass to use in my bolt rifles or should I use it with my AR's and M1A's?

This is all once fired brass, will it need to be trimmed after one use in the semi autos???

I hear that the military brass needs special care as far as removal and installation of primers, where is a good source to learn about that???

Thanks~!

lockedcj7 · June 20, 2007, 07:05 AM

First, the primers pockets are crimped to hold the primers in place. I use a standard de-capping/resizing die or an RCBS universal decapping die and I've broken decapping pins in both. Before you re-prime them, you'll need to remove the crimp by swaging or reaming. There was a thread here a few weeks ago about the advantages/disadvantages of each.

Also, military cases tend to have less capacity than commercial brass but that shouldn't be an issue if you're not compressing loads. Check case length against your reloading manual. If they are too long, trim. If the headstamps are mixed, trim anyway. This will ensure that you get the same crimp on each cartridge.

I've used military brass reloads in bolts and auto-loaders, it doesn't seem to make any difference with mine but I have heard people complain that their loads won't chamber in the autos. Using a small-base resizing die is usually suggested. I have my standard sizing die run down until the ram just barely cams over under pressure.

Hope this helps.

cdrt · June 20, 2007, 07:08 AM

I use one of those Lee decappers to remove the primers. Got tired of breaking decapping pins on my dies.

I reduce my loads by about 2 grains in my .308 due to the reduced case capacity of military brass. Other than that, once the crimp is removed, everything else is the same.

MADISON · June 20, 2007, 07:51 AM

Regardless of what you shoot it in you are going to have to remove the primer crimp. I would use an RCBS Primer Pocket Swedge, for large quanities. This is a ONE TIME operation...

sundog · June 20, 2007, 09:18 AM

Run that brass through your bolt gun before you start. If it chambers, good. It probably will not. Next is to determine whether a small base die is needed. FLS a few with a regular FLS die, and run them through the gun again. If they chamber, good. If not, then try the small base die. Trim to max length as they may very well shorten during the first firing in your bolt gun. check length again. After two or three firings, they can be uniformed again. You may never again need to trim, but check periodically. If your are using a neck sizing die after firing forming you should be in good shape. Dedicate a batch of brass to a particular gun. How to fix the crimped primer pocket is up to you. I just finished about 700 rounds of .223 a few months ago and used a chamfer tool. It worked just fine, but lots of finger work. This batch only needed a pass through a regular FLS die in order to chamber. Now that it is fire formed and dedicated to only one gun, it is neck sized only.

A couple years ago I had a batch of 7.62 that had been through a machine gun. It had to be small based die sized to get it to chamber in a .308 bolt gun. Also had to be trimmed. It's had several loadings thereafter by neck sizing, and its doing just fine. Primer pockets on this batch was done with a swaging tool, and it worked fine also.

For many of the guns I shoot and reload for, I'd just as soon have a good batch of mil brass as anything else. That's not to say that the name brand headstamps are inferior. They are not inferior. Much of the mil brass I have came very inexpensively, and it is of good quality.

Sevens · July 28, 2007, 01:32 PM

Bumping this one to add my question-- (interesting... I've never seen a forum that warns you about old thread bumping... I've always thought it made much more sense to bump a recent thread rather than to start a whole new thread with the same exact discussion...)

I have quite a supply of 5.56 LC once fired U.S. military brass. There's no question about whether or not this is military brass as each round was ejected from U.S. property M-16's on the Viale range at Perry. I use this stuff for handloading my T/C Contender Super 14 in .223.

I use a Lee Challenger press, Lee dies, Lee sizing lube and that ultra-fine mica stuff with the Midway brush set.

And finally, here's the question: How come I never break a decapping pin? Why are my primers never a problem to punch out? Why is it absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to re-prime these cases? I've never reamed or swaged or deburred any flash hole or primer pocket. I clean the primer pockets, but that's it.

All other typical brand and color wars aside, are the Lee rifle dies and decapping pins stronger -- or perhaps made to wider tolerances, maybe not as accurate or fine as "better" or more expensive dies? I don't gorilla-handle these cases when I'm running them through the die... I figure smooth and solid is the key, but I really have no problems with the supposed crimped in primers. I also don't see any difference in the spent primers -- they look just like every ever spent primer I've seen.

lockedcj7 · July 28, 2007, 05:01 PM

I was always under the impression that military match brass did not have primer pocket crimps and would act like you describe. If you got the brass at Camp Perry, could it be match brass?

I've only loaded a small quantity of LC 7.62 match brass and that seemed to be my experience. (I'm sure an expert will be along shortly to contradict me.)

I have since loaded some 5.56 and 30-06 LC brass and just about lost my religion over it. I was using RCBS, Lyman and Pacific dies and one didn't seem better or worse than the rest so I doubt it has anything to do with brand.

Glennster · July 30, 2007, 06:01 AM

Sevens,
I suspect the reason you don't break decapping pins is that you never tried to decap berdan primed brass. I didn't know the difference between berdan and boxer primed brass. If you try this bone headed move like I did, you will break the pin!
Shoot straight,
Glenn

UniversalFrost · July 30, 2007, 09:09 AM

Sevens are you using the Lee Universal decapping die? This is what i use to decap all my mil surp brass and i love the way Lee has designed the decapping pin to be pushed up when too much pressure is applied instead of just breaking the pine (you adjust the amount of tension by a nut at the top of the die).

As far as the mil surp brass it has thicher walls and thus a smaller internal capactiy which can generate higher pressures compared to an identical load in commercial brass. Once you use a swager (I use the RCBS kit with small and larger primer pocekts) and trim the brass to the same lengths you are ready to load up like normal brass. The higher case pressures should really only matter when loading "hot" loads and I have never had any issues. Make sure to full length resize the brass the first time you use them (and every time if used in a semi auto).

Sevens · July 30, 2007, 11:46 AM

As far as I've seen, none of my LC brass is match brass. It's pretty much the same old LC brass that everyone else uses from varying recent years, nothing much older than the mid-80's.

For decapping, I'm simply using the standard Lee 2-die set, using the Lee case lube when resizing and the Midway ultra-fine mica stuff for the necks. I haven't yet bothered to load a case more than once since I have so much of it, I'm going to get the neck-size only die when I'm ready to start re-using some cases.

So no... no trouble depriming or repriming any of them. I dunno... no real explanation I suppose. And since these are all being fired in my Contender, I'm not overly worried about making them "too" hot. My most recent recipe has been a 55 gr Sierra Spitzer over 20.0 grains of H4198, and a 55 gr FMJ-BT over 25.0 grains of H335. That 25 grains of H335 makes a pretty ominous flameball, but I don't think it's out of line. I haven't yet tried that H4198 load. This week, I hope.

Alleykat · July 30, 2007, 02:00 PM

Lots of good info here, but some erroneous. LC .223 brass has the same case capacity as any commercial .223 brass...not so for .308, commercial vs. military.

You'll NEVER need small base dies for your bolt rifle. You MIGHT need them for a semi-auto, but I've loaded thousands of LC cases with my standard Lee dies or an RCBS X die and never had any problems with them feeding and functioning in my Bushmaster.

June 20, 2007, 06:09 AM	#1
Glennster Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 226	Military Brass ? I've got a pretty big pile of military .223 and .308 brass. Is this good brass to use in my bolt rifles or should I use it with my AR's and M1A's? This is all once fired brass, will it need to be trimmed after one use in the semi autos??? I hear that the military brass needs special care as far as removal and installation of primers, where is a good source to learn about that??? Thanks~!

June 20, 2007, 07:08 AM	#3
cdrt Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 255	I use one of those Lee decappers to remove the primers. Got tired of breaking decapping pins on my dies. I reduce my loads by about 2 grains in my .308 due to the reduced case capacity of military brass. Other than that, once the crimp is removed, everything else is the same. __________________ Navy Vet, SWIFT Boat OIC, Distinguished Pistol Shot #1399 USS JOHN S. MCCAIN (DDG-36)

June 20, 2007, 07:51 AM	#4
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	Military Brass Regardless of what you shoot it in you are going to have to remove the primer crimp. I would use an RCBS Primer Pocket Swedge, for large quanities. This is a ONE TIME operation...

June 20, 2007, 09:18 AM	#5
sundog Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Green Country, OK Posts: 782	Run that brass through your bolt gun before you start. If it chambers, good. It probably will not. Next is to determine whether a small base die is needed. FLS a few with a regular FLS die, and run them through the gun again. If they chamber, good. If not, then try the small base die. Trim to max length as they may very well shorten during the first firing in your bolt gun. check length again. After two or three firings, they can be uniformed again. You may never again need to trim, but check periodically. If your are using a neck sizing die after firing forming you should be in good shape. Dedicate a batch of brass to a particular gun. How to fix the crimped primer pocket is up to you. I just finished about 700 rounds of .223 a few months ago and used a chamfer tool. It worked just fine, but lots of finger work. This batch only needed a pass through a regular FLS die in order to chamber. Now that it is fire formed and dedicated to only one gun, it is neck sized only. A couple years ago I had a batch of 7.62 that had been through a machine gun. It had to be small based die sized to get it to chamber in a .308 bolt gun. Also had to be trimmed. It's had several loadings thereafter by neck sizing, and its doing just fine. Primer pockets on this batch was done with a swaging tool, and it worked fine also. For many of the guns I shoot and reload for, I'd just as soon have a good batch of mil brass as anything else. That's not to say that the name brand headstamps are inferior. They are not inferior. Much of the mil brass I have came very inexpensively, and it is of good quality. __________________ safety first

July 28, 2007, 01:32 PM	#6
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Bumping this one to add my question-- (interesting... I've never seen a forum that warns you about old thread bumping... I've always thought it made much more sense to bump a recent thread rather than to start a whole new thread with the same exact discussion...) I have quite a supply of 5.56 LC once fired U.S. military brass. There's no question about whether or not this is military brass as each round was ejected from U.S. property M-16's on the Viale range at Perry. I use this stuff for handloading my T/C Contender Super 14 in .223. I use a Lee Challenger press, Lee dies, Lee sizing lube and that ultra-fine mica stuff with the Midway brush set. And finally, here's the question: How come I never break a decapping pin? Why are my primers never a problem to punch out? Why is it absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to re-prime these cases? I've never reamed or swaged or deburred any flash hole or primer pocket. I clean the primer pockets, but that's it. All other typical brand and color wars aside, are the Lee rifle dies and decapping pins stronger -- or perhaps made to wider tolerances, maybe not as accurate or fine as "better" or more expensive dies? I don't gorilla-handle these cases when I'm running them through the die... I figure smooth and solid is the key, but I really have no problems with the supposed crimped in primers. I also don't see any difference in the spent primers -- they look just like every ever spent primer I've seen. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 20, 2007, 07:05 AM	#2
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	First, the primers pockets are crimped to hold the primers in place. I use a standard de-capping/resizing die or an RCBS universal decapping die and I've broken decapping pins in both. Before you re-prime them, you'll need to remove the crimp by swaging or reaming. There was a thread here a few weeks ago about the advantages/disadvantages of each. Also, military cases tend to have less capacity than commercial brass but that shouldn't be an issue if you're not compressing loads. Check case length against your reloading manual. If they are too long, trim. If the headstamps are mixed, trim anyway. This will ensure that you get the same crimp on each cartridge. I've used military brass reloads in bolts and auto-loaders, it doesn't seem to make any difference with mine but I have heard people complain that their loads won't chamber in the autos. Using a small-base resizing die is usually suggested. I have my standard sizing die run down until the ram just barely cams over under pressure. Hope this helps.

July 28, 2007, 05:01 PM	#7
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I was always under the impression that military match brass did not have primer pocket crimps and would act like you describe. If you got the brass at Camp Perry, could it be match brass? I've only loaded a small quantity of LC 7.62 match brass and that seemed to be my experience. (I'm sure an expert will be along shortly to contradict me.) I have since loaded some 5.56 and 30-06 LC brass and just about lost my religion over it. I was using RCBS, Lyman and Pacific dies and one didn't seem better or worse than the rest so I doubt it has anything to do with brand. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

July 30, 2007, 06:01 AM	#8
Glennster Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 226	Sevens, I suspect the reason you don't break decapping pins is that you never tried to decap berdan primed brass. I didn't know the difference between berdan and boxer primed brass. If you try this bone headed move like I did, you will break the pin! Shoot straight, Glenn

July 30, 2007, 09:09 AM	#9
UniversalFrost Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,300	Sevens are you using the Lee Universal decapping die? This is what i use to decap all my mil surp brass and i love the way Lee has designed the decapping pin to be pushed up when too much pressure is applied instead of just breaking the pine (you adjust the amount of tension by a nut at the top of the die). As far as the mil surp brass it has thicher walls and thus a smaller internal capactiy which can generate higher pressures compared to an identical load in commercial brass. Once you use a swager (I use the RCBS kit with small and larger primer pocekts) and trim the brass to the same lengths you are ready to load up like normal brass. The higher case pressures should really only matter when loading "hot" loads and I have never had any issues. Make sure to full length resize the brass the first time you use them (and every time if used in a semi auto). __________________ Lifetime member VFW and NRA "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead) -Red Green

July 30, 2007, 11:46 AM	#10
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	As far as I've seen, none of my LC brass is match brass. It's pretty much the same old LC brass that everyone else uses from varying recent years, nothing much older than the mid-80's. For decapping, I'm simply using the standard Lee 2-die set, using the Lee case lube when resizing and the Midway ultra-fine mica stuff for the necks. I haven't yet bothered to load a case more than once since I have so much of it, I'm going to get the neck-size only die when I'm ready to start re-using some cases. So no... no trouble depriming or repriming any of them. I dunno... no real explanation I suppose. And since these are all being fired in my Contender, I'm not overly worried about making them "too" hot. My most recent recipe has been a 55 gr Sierra Spitzer over 20.0 grains of H4198, and a 55 gr FMJ-BT over 25.0 grains of H335. That 25 grains of H335 makes a pretty ominous flameball, but I don't think it's out of line. I haven't yet tried that H4198 load. This week, I hope. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 30, 2007, 02:00 PM	#11
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Lots of good info here, but some erroneous. LC .223 brass has the same case capacity as any commercial .223 brass...not so for .308, commercial vs. military. You'll NEVER need small base dies for your bolt rifle. You MIGHT need them for a semi-auto, but I've loaded thousands of LC cases with my standard Lee dies or an RCBS X die and never had any problems with them feeding and functioning in my Bushmaster.