The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 19, 2012, 09:50 PM   #1
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
Lying, Stolen Valor and Illegal Weapons Transfers - From the NRA

Here is a curious case of good intentions gone awry.

http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/i...138528704.html

Several questions come to mind.

Foremost: can the NRA be held accountable for transferring a weapon(s) to a felon?

Is this a good case for stolen valor act? The argument against Stolen Valor is that the liar gets no benefit (other than a perverted mental high I guess), and therefore it should be free speech. Here through his lies he was given an elk hunt, this is a valuable thing.

Thoughts?
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old February 19, 2012, 10:02 PM   #2
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Truitt may very well be prosecuted for being in possession of a firearm as a felon, but I don't think a DA would find Stolen Valor charges worth pursuing. As far as the NRA, it would need to be proven that they knew Truitt was a felon.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old February 19, 2012, 10:14 PM   #3
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
I think I remember reading awhile back that the Stolen Valor Act had been ruled unconstitutional.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old February 19, 2012, 10:15 PM   #4
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Have we even been in Afghanistan long enough for someone to do 7 tours?

Now that I remember the Navy has a shorter length of time for what comprises a tour, still though, 7 tours - man... time flys.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old February 19, 2012, 10:26 PM   #5
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
Quote:
I think I remember reading awhile back that the Stolen Valor Act had been ruled unconstitutional.
I am sure you did, many people would like that to be true. However it is going to the SCOTUS for the dude out in California who claimed that he rescued the Ambassador to Iran during the Iran Hostage crisis. Should come up in a few months.

Quote:
Have we even been in Afghanistan long enough for someone to do 7 tours?
Yeah. However anyone should have figured that guy was a tard just from talking to him for five minutes, hell looking at him.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old February 19, 2012, 10:27 PM   #6
TurkeyOak
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2011
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 53
A case is going to the Supreme Court. Some will say that lying is protected speech ( lucky for me!)
But advertisers get sued and fined for false advertising. They cant say beer cures cancer. You also cant bootleg as that violates intellectual property and copyrights. I cant make grips and sell them as Hogues, for example.
The case going to the Supreme Court is about a guy claiming to be a marine with the Medal of Honor. Doesn't that infringe on the Marine Corps brand?
If I claim to be a lawyer, dentist, or senator I'd be jailed. Why not for the MOH?
If they dont uphold it I'll print business cards claiming to be a law clerk at the Supreme Court who graduated 9th from Harvard.
TurkeyOak is offline  
Old February 19, 2012, 10:28 PM   #7
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,712
Would it actually need to be proven that they knew or proven that they didn't vet Truitt first to see that he wasn't a felon?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 02:36 AM   #8
vranasaurus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,184
DNS,

Yes, federal law prohibits the knowing transfer to a prohibited person. The prisecutor must prove knowledge.
vranasaurus is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 08:17 AM   #9
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
I say it was careless though. I guess if the law allows them to be careless that is too bad. A law defining how careful one should be is fraught with issues.

In a way they are lucky. The guy clearly has a screw or two loose by all counts. It could have been a lot worse if he had taken it into his head to start shooting people.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 08:28 AM   #10
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
The way I'm reading the story is that the NRA supplied the rifles to the organization that organized the hunt, and that organization then supplied the rifle to Truitt.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 08:54 AM   #11
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
I did not get that from the story but it is possible. If that is the case then they are really opening themselves up to a media circus by trusting third parties like that.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 10:39 AM   #12
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
"Foremost: can the NRA be held accountable for transferring a weapon(s) to a felon?"

I believe the law says, "knows or has reason to know". It does not say that anyone has to make an effort of any sort to discover/research/ask around about a buyer, etc. I have always asked, but nothing keeps a buyer from lying and I have no way of checking their answer.

If the feds wanted us to run background checks as private parties they'd let us use the background check system.
johnbt is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 11:55 AM   #13
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
Quote:
I think I remember reading awhile back that the Stolen Valor Act had been ruled unconstitutional.
I am sure you did, many people would like that to be true. However it is going to the SCOTUS for the dude out in California who claimed that he rescued the Ambassador to Iran during the Iran Hostage crisis. Should come up in a few months.
As a Vietnam veteran, I fully support the Stolen Valor law. That doesn't mean the courts agree with me.

If you know it is going to the SCOTUS, which way does it stand as of now? Did a circis court rule it UNconstitutional and the gummint appealed, or did the circus court uphold it and the doofus appealed?

[EDIT]Never mind -- I found it. Circuit Court split:
http://www.military.com/news/article...valor-act.html

Quote:
The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the federal law. In California, the 9th Circuit struck it down.

This split means residents of a 10th Circuit state like Kansas and Colorado face Stolen Valor Act prosecution while residents of a 9th Circuit state like Washington, Idaho and California do not. The Supreme Court picks cases to resolve such circuit splits.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 12:04 PM   #14
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,525
If someone lies their way into a prize worth money, they can and should be prosecuted for fraud.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 12:31 PM   #15
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,712
Given Truitt's story, I would be very curious to see how it was that he qualified for the hunt. If it was based on the claims reported here, red flags and warning lights should have been going off. After all, how many folks would have been special forces, served 7 tours, shot 11 times, and have been taken prisoner and tortured? Either you have the top .000001% of soldiers standing in your presence about whom you had never heard anything previously, or you have a fraud. Extraordingary claims should require extraordinary proof.

He might have gotten away with his scheme had he only claimed to be a typical grunt, maybe wounded in a mortar attack, disabled after a short tour, and sent home. That would not call much attention to him, but no, he had to claim to be a SEAL.

Quote:
Have we even been in Afghanistan long enough for someone to do 7 tours?
We have been there long enough for 7 tours and there are probably folks who have done 7 tours. We started action there back in October of 2001 with Operation Enduring Freedom. The first US loss of life on the ground was Sgt. 1st Class Nathan Chapman who was 31 when he was shot to death Jan. 4, 2002. Not all tours are a year long, if that is what you are thinking. Some are shorter, some go longer.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 01:01 PM   #16
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
^ At first I wasn't catching on that he was in the Navy. In the Army, tours for Iraq /Afghanistan are 15 months. In the Navy they can be as short as 6 months IIRC.

The main guy who caught on to it was a Marine and probably the Marines are more familiar with the length of a Naval tour of duty. But if someone would have told me they served 7 tours of duty in Afghanistan my first thought would have been "Holy crap, thats over 8½ years!"

But as I delved into a little further, Army tours were 12 months before 2007.

But anyway, besides the Stolen Valor issue there is the issue of obtaining somethng by fraud. Truitt can probably be hit up for the cost of the hunting trip. On the other hand... this guy is such a mess, he's probably going to end up killing himself. He needs money to get counseling and probably needs anti-depressant meds. Pounding a mentally ill misfit who got chaptered out of the service on a medical doesn't seem worth it...
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 01:12 PM   #17
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
Quote:
He might have gotten away with his scheme had he only claimed to be a typical grunt, maybe wounded in a mortar attack, disabled after a short tour, and sent home. That would not call much attention to him, but no, he had to claim to be a SEAL.
I don't know what it is about Navy SEALS that causes so many of the fakers to want to be one. I like to swim but; joining the Navy? No thanks.

How did he make so far without any proof makes one wonder. POW network offers ways of checking people out with their idiotic claims of medals earned for heroism. They should have done that here. The fact that he had to borrow a rifle to hunt elk with tells you right there he most likely was NOT a SEAL.

Quote:
If you know it is going to the SCOTUS, which way does it stand as of now?
It is weird. On the one hand I support free speech implicitly. On the other hand I see trash like this taking advantage of the patriotism and good nature in people and wonder where to draw the line. This is fraud for gain, not just trying to pump an ego up with a false sense of accomplishment from the deluded good feelings of tricked well wishers.

I understand that there are people in the world that need this in their life to make it through the day. I guess people lie about all kinds of things on job resumes and college applications. To take from people who risk and sacrifice quite a lot for darned little strikes me as particularly vile.

I would submit that everyone really needs to check out anyone who claims any type of military service and is seeking some kind of benefit due to that service. I hope the NRA learned a lesson here.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 01:16 PM   #18
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
The NRA only donated the rifles to the Hunt for Heroes project. The NRA had no way of knowing how that organization would fail to screen their participants.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 01:32 PM   #19
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
Quote:
The NRA had no way of knowing how that organization would fail to screen their participants.


Broken mouth, could not ask?

Look I am not throwing it all on them. The other organization is culpable; but I think the leaders have a duty to the members to exercise good judgment. So I can't really hold them blameless either.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 02:16 PM   #20
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
I like to swim but; joining the Navy?
Thats how I always felt about it. To try out for SEALs you have to join the Navy and if you don't make it, you're still in the Navy.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 06:18 PM   #21
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
And, having just read and posted in this thread, I grabbed a local newspaper so I'd have a crossword puzzle to do while eating lunch today and there as an AP (Associated Press, not Armor Piercing) story about this very issue and the circuit court split.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 06:58 PM   #22
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
"Look I am not throwing it all on them."

Throwing what on them? You haven't made a case for anything. The NRA acted responsibly and according to the law. I think you're attempting to make something out of absolutely zero.

A few years ago I donated money to a gun club in PA for 2 target rifles. You sound as if you expected me to drive up there and make sure the adults were properly supervising the high school students on the team who were using the rifles. That's nuts.

John
johnbt is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 08:21 PM   #23
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
The NRA did exercise good judgement.

I don't think it's incumbent on a charitable giver to delve into every aspect of a beneficiary organization. There would be no end to it...

And just my personal opinion, but, if the NRA had said "we'll donate some rifles for the hunt, but we want to audit all your processes, look at your by-laws, see what checks and balances you have, and we want to have our auditor go over your books." I'd say, "thanks but you can keep your rifles."

Before this incident there was nothing to indicate that the Hunt for Heroes project had any issues. I'm sure they will amend their selection process, who knows - maybe people are going to have to show a DD214 from now on... but just looking at the organization, they seem like some people who are trying to do something worthwhile. I can't see where the NRA should have second-guessed them.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 10:48 PM   #24
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,367
Here's the passage that makes me think that NRA simply supplied the rifle and the organization running the hunt actually gave it to this clown:

"Truitt was given a rifle during the hunting trip. A sheriff's office spokesman said they have learned the rifle has been returned to the National Rifle Association. A group affiliated with the NRA helps with the Hunt for Heroes project."

Note that it says DURING the hunting trip. Also note the last sentence. That makes it sound as if one of the Friends of the NRA groups or perhaps the state rifle association is the actual group that supplied the rifle, not the NRA.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old February 20, 2012, 10:59 PM   #25
WyMark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 647
Quote:
They cant say beer cures cancer.


Wait....what?


****, I'm doomed.
WyMark is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07031 seconds with 8 queries