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November 3, 2011, 03:38 PM | #26 | |
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November 3, 2011, 05:19 PM | #27 |
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Aaron is totally correct. In short, the pharma shot the first perp in the head, and he hit the floor. He then chased the second from the store, trying to apprehend/kill him.
he then returned to the store, walked around a prone body, retrieved another gun, and shot this unmoving unconscious individual several times. This is all as clear as day on his own security footage camera; no BS testimony from fuzzy headed eye witnesses. Under no laws known to myself are you allowed to shoot an unconscious, unarmed person in self defense. That was a clear cut case of murder, and his mouthing off at the press in defense of his actions was just plain stupid. Why retrieve a second gun? I've heard that he emptied the first gun. Why shoot the downed perp? It's my understanding that he still considered himself and his staff to be in danger from the unarmed and unconscious perp. This was the stupidest case that I have heard of since the guy shot the japanese exhange student in his driveway with a .44 magnum. |
November 3, 2011, 05:29 PM | #28 | |
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We hear these things coming out of the mouths of the lesser endowed members of our community, roll our eyes, and try to ignore it, but we really shouldn't. we should be trying to save lives. Obviously, not everyone who talks like that is an idiot, sometimes it's just nonsense talk, like zombie strategy. it can be fun to talk nonsense. I counseled him many, many times, "if you ever feel the need to shoot someone, shoot yourself instead. You aren't going to like prison." |
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November 3, 2011, 05:37 PM | #29 |
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Everything the pharmacist did up until he pulled the second gun and shot the kid lying with a serious brain injury on his floor was legal. This case has been discussed in several other threads and really has nothing to do with trigger pull issues. He murdered a defenseless kid with no self defense issue at all once he picked up the second gun and shot the kid a second time. He was rightly convicted of murder.
The DA will have any weapon involved in a shooting tested by a firearms expert as well as the ammo that was used. Trigger jobs and hand loaded ammo are just bad legal quagmires to enter and opens up the accusation of a bad shoot when it was nothing like that. Often, it will only be your word against the other person or their witnesses if he doesn't survive. Just one less hurdle to jump over should you ever need to exercise your right to self defense. There is simply too much legal precedent in place already on these issues to even argue about from the expert opinions on this issue already. I carry a Ruger SP101 DAO first because I prefer revolvers, just call me old and secondly because it is DAO, it takes away the accidental discharge issue from a DA/SA where you might have put it in SA mode for the shoot. Even doing that raises the issue of an accidental discharge as several cases demonstrate. Anyway, that is my two cents on the issue which I choose to adhere to the DAO trigger pull for my own CCW. |
November 3, 2011, 06:16 PM | #30 |
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Another note on the OK pharm is the kid he killed wasn't armed. His friend, who was the one with the gun, booked it out of the store with the pharm in hot pursuit. Anyone want to take bets the DA pointed out the pursuit of the second perp was used to further establish the bloody mindset of the pharm?
Right or wrong, a lawyer will use the light trigger pull in any way he can to win his case. I suspect anyone who has experienced an unexpected discharge from a light trigger would understand why this could be a poor idea in a high stress situation. I definitely would feel more comfortable with a stock trigger than a target trigger (1/2 pound to 2 pound range).
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November 4, 2011, 12:55 AM | #31 |
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My purpose built target pistols all are SAO and have very light triggers. I would never want to try use them in an SD situation unless I had to.
All of my carry pistols are DA/SA, have factory triggers that are smooth, but factory pull weight. Much easier to control in a time of crisis. |
November 4, 2011, 02:15 AM | #32 |
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serf'rett, the fact of the decedant not being armed in OKC actually had no bearing on the case, as noted by the police and DA. The decedant behaved as though he was armed - which would lead a reasonable person in the same situation to believe he was, in fact, armed - but even more importantly, he was working as part of a team, and his teammate was armed.
Case law pretty much says that every (present) member of a criminal gang is equally liable for the actions of the gang, and every (present) member of such a gang has qualified himself as a justifiable target. So, his being unarmed was legally meaningless. |
November 4, 2011, 08:25 AM | #33 |
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Lawyers aside, because it is doubtless that they will use a "hair trigger" to make you look like a killer and any training you have received to make you look like a rogue assassin, I wouldn't mess with the internal components of any carry gun. A range toy or competition gun, sure, play around. But once you start messing around with an original design it is just 1 more thing to go wrong.
A nice tricked out trigger job is great, 'til the spring breaks when you really really really need it to be flawless.
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November 4, 2011, 01:16 PM | #34 |
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The argument that a light trigger "makes the gun" more deadly is nuts. Unless the trigger is light to the point where it is no longer safe (a "hair" trigger) and I know that is a gray area as to how light is to light..but I digress That same argument can be made about night or FO sights, grips, laser sights or flashlight attachments a number of things.
If I add FO sights to my guy and shoot someone in the dark would the DA try to use it against me? I can tell you this though, a guy at the LGS told me any Glocks sold to the NYPD have a special heavy trigger after a few incidents of officers emptying whole magazines into suspects and using the 'I didnt realize how many shots I fired because of the adrenaline" line after giving initial statments about only firing 3 or 4 shots. |
November 4, 2011, 02:30 PM | #35 | |
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I have done things to my guns to make them shoot more accurately, and pose less danger to bystanders should I have to use them in self-defense. I am prepared to articulate precisely why I purposely shot at anyone I shoot at, and will let my lawyers counter the false arguments presented. One need only ask an 'expert' witness if he would prefer to hit a small difficult target with a three pound trigger or a nine pound trigger to demonstrate the principle.
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November 4, 2011, 02:50 PM | #36 | |
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Secondly, you state all you have to get is an expert to state he would rather shoot a 3 pound than 9 pound trigger pull gun. You are over looking the fact that the legal cases already establish a hair trigger in terms of SA revolver pull. From the literature I have read, the experts will not be on your side my friend, just read Mas Ayoob link I listed above and the legal cases he noted in his opinion. Third, you state that YOU have done things to your own trigger which opens you up to the precise danger that this thread is talking about. The first thing that you will contend with in your case is the manufacturer's expert witness on why they designed your gun with a heavier trigger for safety reasons. The DA will have 10 witnesses on their side testifying why modified triggers are dangerous in addition to Federal appeals courts ruling that modified or single action triggers on a DA/SA revolver is a hair trigger. They have already defined this legally and you my friend are not very likely going to reverse these long standing legal decisions. Lastly, it is likely that they will read this thread and the many posts advising you not to modify your trigger in a CCW gun and they will use all of your own public posts against you as well. If they find posts where you exhibit over the top comments on what you would do in a shooting incident, that will be entered into evidence against you as well. Remember, this is a PUBLIC forum subject to review by the DA if you should end up in that situation. So, if you want to shoot off your mouth in a public forum and go against conventional expert advice by people that testify in gun cases for a living like Mas Ayoob, I would think that if God forbid you ever get yourself in that situation, you will be digging yourself a huge hole you won't be able to get out of even before you have ever shot one bullet in a self defense situation. For myself, I will stick with a DAO revolver where the manufacturer will testify on my behalf, not against me. I will hope and pray I never once have to use my gun in self defense EVER, but if I have to save my life or that of my family, I hope and pray all of the details after the fact point to the situation being one of the gravest extreme as Mas Ayoob wrote in his famous book so many years ago. Carrying a CCW is a legitimate right, but it is also an awesome responsibility not to be taken lightly. A cavalier attitude doesn't demonstrate what they will be looking for especially from your own defense lawyers. Nevertheless, if you wish to modify your trigger and tell your lawyers to go get them boys, all I have to say is good luck. Last edited by Alaska444; November 4, 2011 at 02:56 PM. |
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November 4, 2011, 03:02 PM | #37 | |
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November 4, 2011, 03:11 PM | #38 |
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Alaska444 is wiser than the usual bean.
We have an auto in the motorhome that requires a long heavy pull. My carry is in condition 1, loaded, cocked and locked. It's going to take deliberate action to fire it. I think that's defensable. Any takers?
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November 4, 2011, 03:14 PM | #39 | |
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In any case, I have done quite a bit of reading before and after I got my CCW. I want to know what I am facing if I ever use my weapon in self defense. I am under no illusions that it is something that I want to avoid at all costs. As Mas Ayoob states, only under the gravest extreme. |
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November 4, 2011, 03:40 PM | #40 | |
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November 4, 2011, 06:13 PM | #41 |
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Obvious intentions via words or graphics
I agree with the post stating that firearms adornments such as skulls on grips do not help the defense in a shooting case. Also of no help are user names in various firearms forums, including TFL, that allude to non-hunting killing or other violent actions. Tough to defend someone whose user name, hypothetically speaking, is "Kill 'em all."
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November 4, 2011, 06:14 PM | #42 |
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The trigger issue is only going to come up IF you get charged for the shooting. At that point, everything is on the table. Don't hire Harold Fish's attorney.
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November 4, 2011, 07:01 PM | #43 |
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This topic comes up a lot.
My take on it is this: If you really want to modify (as in lighten, vs smooth) your trigger pull, then - a) be prepared to explain how it helps you hit the target, and not miss the target and hit an innocent bystander; b) be prepared to show that your modification does not fall beyond the pale of what most serious shooters would do to a carry weapon; c) be prepared to show your own training and qualifications (course certificates, military training, etc) to show that you made an informed decision based on merits, not based on trying to emulate some internet tough guy; d) be prepared to hire an expert defense witness, who can testify as to the condition of and modifications to your weapon, if necessary. If you can't intelligently explain why you did it, in such a way that it will make sense to a jury; or, if the judge won't let you testify about it, because your own expertise prior to the event cannot be established; then that defense expert could be crucial. Edit: To clarify, I don't recommend going less than 4lbs for single action; I don't have any carry guns set up with less than 4lb triggers; the advice listed above was for those cases where people insist on doing so. Last edited by MLeake; November 5, 2011 at 11:54 AM. |
November 5, 2011, 08:20 AM | #44 | |||
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November 5, 2011, 11:51 AM | #45 |
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I'm just going to repeat what I've said. It's not about what we think. This issue is entirely about what the people who will charge, try, and convict you will think, if your actions draw legal attention to yourself.
One of the simplest things you can do to protect yourself is to use an unaltered firearm, and "normal" SD ammo. The second is to not make a target of yourself and your character. You can get every desirable combat modification in a stock pistol, just buy an off the shelf combat weapon. (off the shelf means NO MODIFICATIONS done by you.) Stock, standard, ordinary SD ammo is not going to draw attention, but "black talons" will hurt you. Why would anyone (not LE) carry something like that in the legal environment today? ("ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this sick, twisted psycho had FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF BLACK TALON AMMUNITION IN HIS PISTOL!" when he carried his pistol into that liquor store at midnight he had no intent of leaving any survivors!") It's simple. If you ignore these facts, and trust in your fellow man to see past it all, you will be the one in jail and bankrupt with legal fees, while the guy who carried a stock S&W .38 police revolver may be at home with his wife after similar incidents. |
November 5, 2011, 11:56 AM | #46 |
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briandg, as far as ammo goes, find out what your local, county, and state LE use; it will virtually always be some sort of modern hollow-point. Use that or something similar, and the ammo argument is easily won by a competent lawyer.
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November 5, 2011, 12:15 PM | #47 |
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That is exactly right.
Our LE uses anything available. They most recently to my knowledge used hydra shock. They've used silvertip, nyclad, and other mass market SD rounds. Personally, I have standard 115 grain silver tips in 9 mm, and golden saber 125 +p in my .38s and .357s. Nothing out of the ordinary. I keep my .357 carbine loaded with .38 special in ordinary handloads; underloading the high powered magnum should offset the handload worry, I believe. The logic between both of the factory loads is that the FBI once used the silvertip, and also used the 125 grain +p. Golden saber are a very conservative round, as opposed to a specialty SD round. |
November 5, 2011, 05:46 PM | #48 |
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For the record, I'm court-certifiable as an expert witness in the use of force, so I'm not exactly without any experience-and it wasn't experience gained on the internet.
A light trigger is ONLY an issue if the prosecution contends the shooting wasn't intentional-which they well may-and it will be up to you and your attorney(s) to prove the shoot was completely intentional. (And yes, attorney's are expensive, but it would be silly to think a 9 pound trigger would mean one WOULD'NT need a lawyer...) Once you prove the shooting was intentional, trigger pull weight is a non-issue. If someone is confident that they will shoot well enough with a 5, 6, or 14 pound trigger to solve any defensive situation, they should carry that type of trigger. I have 30+ years of experience with 'light' SA triggers used in LEO and competition environments, and can articulate very explicitly how every modification done to my firearm makes me less likely to hit an innocent and more likely to have to shoot LESS to end a threat. For everyone who considers that every defensive shooting situation will be across the hood of their car, I suggest this. I prefer to shoot a gun that will allow me to shoot to my potential, as surviving the encounter is the first step in winning the fight-dead men never make it to court. And "Mas Ayoob"...enough said. Larry
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November 5, 2011, 06:07 PM | #49 |
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I agree with this completely as it may pertain to a criminal defense. But in civil court, the plaintiffs attorneys will make hay with a modified trigger, especially if it is lighter than what a typical LE agency would approve.
But I share the opinion that the best way to avoid liability is not to make any horrible mistakes in the first place, and for me, that means a carry trigger in the 4-5 lb. neighborhood. I find I can place shots with more precision with such a trigger. That makes it safer for innocent bystanders in my opinion. Sub 3.5 lb. triggers for a defensive pistol may be regarded as irresponsible in court, especially civil court. |
November 5, 2011, 06:13 PM | #50 | |
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Edited to add: Also, for more information on the issue of reloads for SD, I put together a collection of threads on that a while back. If you're interested in seeing those arguments, just run a search for threads I've created.
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