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Old December 24, 2023, 12:28 AM   #1
1972RedNeck
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357 Max from 350 Legend

Have always wanted a 357 Maximum. Have thought for a long time that a 7 or 8 shot X frame 357 Max would be the cat's meow.

Anyways, what about shooting 357 Max from a 350 legend Smith & Wesson X frame? Yes, I know it can't be done, kittens will die, guns will explode, etc.

Some companies ream 357 cylinders to shoot 9mm with no ill effects. 357 Max is closer in diameter below the head to 350 legend than 9mm is to 357. 357 Max pressures are well below 350 Legend pressures.

Seems to me like it would work and work well.

Thoughts?
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Old December 24, 2023, 04:10 PM   #2
DWFan
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Given that 350 Legend ammo is easier to find than .357 Maximum, I don't see the benefit. BTW, the difference in case diameter between the two is the same as the 9mm vs. the .357 Magnum.
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Old December 24, 2023, 06:24 PM   #3
1972RedNeck
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Mainly because I don't like moon clips. If someone made rimmed 350 brass, that would be the best.

I was thinking of using 357 Max brass and loading it with the 350 dies if that would work.
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Old December 24, 2023, 10:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
BTW, the difference in case diameter between the two is the same as the 9mm vs. the .357 Magnum.
Sort of. Grab a book, (Hornady has case drawings and dimensions) and compare the given specs.

First off, look at the .357 and the .357 Max. Dimensions are the same for both other than the case length. .379" at the case mouth, .379" at the case head, .440" rim diameter.

.357 case length, 1.290"
.357 Max length, 1.605"

9mm Luger case mouth is .380"
case head is .391"
length is .754"
Rim diameter is .394"

.350 Legend (I don't have a book that list it, its too new for me ) but going from the "infallible" Wikipedia,
case mouth is .378"
Base diameter is .390"
Rim diameter is .378".
case length is 1.71"

While its called a "straight case" the .350 Legend is actually tapered, like the 9mm case, but because its over twice as long, the angle of the taper is less. Also the .350 is a rebated rim case. The rim diameter is the same as the .222 family of cases (no doubt to use the standard AR bolt face) but the body is larger at the head.

SO, aside from the fact that there is no room in a .350 cylinder to take the rims of the .357 Max, you're looking at a chamber that is overlarge (.390 vs .379) for the Max case body at the head, which might not be unsafe for a single firing, (assuming you had your X frame cylinder cut to accept the rims) but that much expansion of the case at the head certainly won't do your brass life any good.

Running .357 Max brass through a .350 Legend sizer die probably won't do much, it might size the case mouth I don't know, 1.6 vs 1.7" the die MIGHT be tight enough at 1.6" to size the .357 Max case mouth. but it shouldn't even touch the rest of the case, its cut too big for that.

Individual tolerances between the cases and the dies might result in a situation where it works, but I wouldn't count on it. 0.01" is a pretty big difference when tolerance specs are generally a half, or a third of that.

SO, shooting .357 Max from a .350 Legend would need the gun cut to take the Max rims, and leave you shooting the Max in an over sized, (diameter) over long chamber. And, that leaves out the whole .355" vs. .358" bullet diameter question.

I don't consider the idea practical or even good, and it might, possibly, not even be a safe thing to do.

Your $, your gun, your hands and eyes, you do what you think best, but I wouldn't even consider it.
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Old December 26, 2023, 12:43 PM   #5
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Are you wedded to the idea of a DA revolver? If the only reason that you prefer the .357 Maximum over the .350 Legend is the moonclips and you don't mind a SA revolver, Magnum Research makes their BFR in .350 Legend and, being a gate-loading SA revolver, moonclips would not be part of the equation.

Also, If the S&W 350 is like other moonclip revolvers, the cartridges should headspace and fire off the case mouth just fine without the clips, but fired cases would need to be plucked/poked out of the chambers one at a time due to the extractor having nothing to work against. While that would certainly make reloading a bit more of a chore, I doubt that speedy reloads is really a big part of most people's intended use for this revolver.

Finally, if you really have your heart set on a .357 Maximum DA revolver, it would probably be easier, safer, more practical and more cost effective to just find a used one (I think Dan Wesson used to make their SuperMag revolvers in .357 Max) than to try and convert a new S&W 350.
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Old December 26, 2023, 10:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Magnum Research makes their BFR in .350 Legend and, being a gate-loading SA revolver, moonclips would not be part of the equation.
No, moon clips (full moon, half moon, baby moon) cannot be used in an SA revolver, even if there were space for them, which, there isn't.

The problem shooting .357Maximum from a .350 Legend SA revolver is still the same, even though no clips could be used.

First, the cylinder would have to be machined to provide the space for the .357 Max case rims, and then you are still shooting the .357 Max rounds in an over sized chamber.

Though not cheap, the best solution would be what Ruger does with their convertible SA revolvers, use a separate cylinder for the different rounds.
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Old December 26, 2023, 11:51 PM   #7
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Is it the OP's apparent desire to buy a $1,600 S&W X-Frame 350 Legend rated at 55,000psi,
and then use it for a cartridge having less powder capacity and limited to only 40,000psi?

Do I also understand that the OP is already a handloader, and could just download the 350L
if that's the objective?
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Old December 27, 2023, 12:11 AM   #8
1972RedNeck
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Quote:
Do I also understand that the OP is already a handloader, and could just download the 350L
if that's the objective?
Yes I would roll my own. Don't have any interest in a cartridge that requires moon clips. Rimmed 350 Legend brass would be the perfect answer.

Quote:
First, the cylinder would have to be machined to provide the space for the .357 Max case rims, and then you are still shooting the .357 Max rounds in an over sized chamber.
I have been told that the 350 X frame cylinder will close and rotate when full of 357 Mags - they just never pulled the trigger to see what would happen...
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Old December 27, 2023, 08:10 AM   #9
mehavey
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Quote:
Don't have any interest in a cartridge that requires moon clips
Like the Ruger 30 Carbine revolver, the S&W 350L headspaces on the case mouth.
It loads like any other revolver and does not require moon clips.

Note: The "moonclip" feature the OP seems to be speaking of is an integral speedloader option .. .
...not actual moonclip necessity.

(HOWEVER #1)
>
> Despite the rimless nature of the cartridge, 350 Legend rounds can be
> chambered and fired in the Model 350 without the need for moon clips,
> thanks to counter-bored chambers that abut the case mouths to facilitate
> proper headspacing. However, Smith does include a pair of full moon clips
> that allow all seven chambers to be loaded or unloaded simultaneously.
> While not mandatory, the moon clips are so useful that they might as well
> be. Shooters who forgo their use can expect to carry a wooden dowel with
> them to the range, as without the clips, the gun’s star extractor has no rim
> to contact, and a tool will be needed to push each empty case out individually.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...nered-x-frame/

(HOWEVER #2)
Even if a rimmed (38 special, 357 Mag, 357 Max would fit/function, the extractor wouldn't engage them the rims --
-- and the moonclip wouldn't be useable to solve that problem.

Last edited by mehavey; December 27, 2023 at 08:42 AM.
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Old December 27, 2023, 02:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
I have been told that the 350 X frame cylinder will close and rotate when full of 357 Mags -
This MIGHT be true. Or it might be true only with the specific revolver they tried it in, and possibly not all the guns of the production run. Tolerances vary, and the spec is always a range of measurement.

Half Moon (3rnd) clips were developed for the 1917 .45acp revolvers. The idea was not that they were to be speedloaders, but speed unloaders, so that all 6 empties could be extracted and ejected at the same time, the same way rimmed rounds did.

The very first batch of Colt 1917s actually did need the clips in order to fire. The S&W did not. Colt had bored the cylinders straight through, without the headspace ledge that S&W had. That first batch was reworked with replacement cylinders that would headspace individual rounds without the clip. In the early 1920s Peters cartridge company created the .45 Auto Rim, specifically to be used in the 1917 revolvers without needing to use clips.

Later on, "full moon" (6rnd) clips were made, and I even have some "Baby moon) (2rnd) clips, which are pretty uncommon.

The reason for the clips was not to be a speed loader, but they do work as one.

IF the .350 Legend X frame has the clearance for the .357 Max rim, fine, I would check to see if it is made with enough clearance, or if it is a matter of serendipity that a specific gun has the tolerance. Most revolvers made to shoot rimless rounds need some modification in order for the revolver round rims to fit.

IF the X frame will take the rimmed cases, you're good to go on that part, BUT will the extractor engage them??? And, if it does will it be able to extract the fired brass from the .350 chamber which is .01" too large at the case head for .357 brass??

I don't know. Also, consider that if you do it, you're out of warranty coverage, by doing it. SO, any and everything that goes wrong is on you and repairs if needed (or possible) will come out of your pocket.

And an additional point, one I've mostly avoided is that the .350 is advertised as using a .355" diameter bullet (a special one designed for the cartridge) and the .357 Max is made to use the standard .357-.358" diameter bullets.

Not automatically a problem, but it could well be an issue.

.357 Maximum brass isn't exactly cheap or common, and I think that firing it in a chamber spec'd 0.010" larger than the case head will allow the brass in front of the solid head to expand to that diameter, and that repeated reloading of those cases will overwork the brass and lead to early failure, from cracking, or possibly complete case head separation.

Can't say when (how many cycles) it will happen, only that it seems likely, to me.

Another point to consider, one that just occurred to me, is the possibility of .357 case heads being set back hard against the revolver recoil shield due to not gripping the .350 chamber enough at the right time. This might result in jamming the gun.

Honestly, I don't know that any of these things will happen, but I do know they might happen.

Where the OP wants to walk is "off the map" and into the part that is labeled "there be dragons here!" He might be able to navigate around them, or he might step on one's tail and wake it up.

I'll stay where the dragons don't roam, thank you.
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Old December 27, 2023, 03:41 PM   #11
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One other thing to consider.

Chambers designed for unrimmed cases usually have a "step" near the front of the chamber to allow cartridges to chamber on the case mouth

Revolvers generally have a tapered area at the front of the chamber because they are set up to headspace on the rim and don't need the step. That tapered area allows cartridges of any length (less than the max) to be chambered and fired.

The chamber on the S&W 350L has the "step"--that is why it can be shot without moonclips in its native chambering. That means you will get bullet material shaving on the step if you shoot shorter rounds through it.

That can be just an irritation--you may have to really clean the chambers carefully to remove the shaved bullet material to get the 350L cartridge to chamber. Or it might actually cause an unsafe situation if enough material builds up and a 350L round is forced into the chamber, jamming the case mouth into the shaved material and potentially increasing the discharge pressure.

This is one reason why it's usually acceptable to shoot a shorter round in a revolver chamber (e.g. .38Spl in a .357Mag or .357Max) but manufacturers never recommend shooting a shorter round in an autopistol chamber.

Ironically, if you want to shoot .357Mag/Max in a 350L revolver, you should probably have the chamber profile changed to be more "revolver-like" at the front so you don't get the shaving problem. The downside is that after the mod you would be forced to use moonclips when shooting the 350L because it would no longer headspace on the case mouth given the new chamber profile.

If it's done right, it shouldn't significantly affect accuracy.
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Old December 27, 2023, 04:46 PM   #12
mehavey
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Quote:
IF the X frame will take the rimmed cases, you're good to go on that part, BUT will the extractor engage them???
"No."

Quote:
...you will get bullet material shaving on the [headspace] step if you shoot shorter rounds through it.
That's the killer.

OP:
Just download the 350L brass to whatever boutique performance you desire, and let the 350L be a 350L...
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Old December 27, 2023, 10:46 PM   #13
1972RedNeck
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I didn't realize they made the cylinder to headspace off the mouth so you don't have to use moon clips if you don't want to.

If this is actually the case, forget that I ever asked about shooting 357 through it. 350 Legend will do just fine.

I think I just found my next gun to save up for.
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Old December 28, 2023, 12:14 AM   #14
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All the clips get you is being able to extract and eject all the cases at the same time with the usual stroke of the ejector rod.

Without the clips the round is able to chamber and fire as normal. Getting the empties out is one at a time, pick them out with your fingers (if there is enough to grab) or the more common, poke them out with a rod.

Its hardly a combat gun, a rapid reload wouldn't be my priority.
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Old December 28, 2023, 06:23 AM   #15
jetinteriorguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1972RedNeck View Post
I didn't realize they made the cylinder to headspace off the mouth so you don't have to use moon clips if you don't want to.

If this is actually the case, forget that I ever asked about shooting 357 through it. 350 Legend will do just fine.

I think I just found my next gun to save up for.
Sounds like a wise decision.
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Old January 20, 2024, 06:22 PM   #16
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Moon clips would allow the hand loader to put a decent roll crimp on the case to prevent bullet creep. Maybe this isn’t a problem on such a heavy gun?
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Old January 20, 2024, 07:31 PM   #17
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There is a Dan Wesson 357 Max on GB right now. If you’ve “always wanted one” there you go.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1030869908
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