What The Heck Is This?

redlantrn · October 9, 2008, 12:45 PM

At the request of mnw42, and to reduce any clutter I have created, I will post all of my pics/questions in this thread of any guns from my collection:
Heres the first:

This rifle has a stamp on the stock with the above name and 1936 in a circular pattern. Only visible numbers are F7071, behind front sight. Bayonette sharp as a pin. missing magazine. R E Terni is also behind front sight, with a crown above it. Oh there is an odd combination of numbers on right side of barrel 36-XIV. Any estimate as far as value?
Thanks!

PetahW · October 9, 2008, 06:15 PM

It's a sporterized/chopped Italian Army Terni rifle - only been dropped once (when the owner surrendered)

.

IIRC, the caliber/cartridge should be one of the small, rimmed, European 6.5's (6.5 Caracano ?).

It's an Italian rip-off of an 1891 Mauser design.

.

Jim Watson · October 9, 2008, 06:46 PM

Gotta disagree with PetaW
.
The illustrated rifle is an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano Model 38 carbine in Italian WW II army issue configuration, complete with folding bayonet. Caliber 6.5x52 Carcano.

36-XIV is the date code, 1936, the 14th year of Mussolini's regime.

It is not "missing magazine", the magazine is integral with the trigger guard but has to be loaded from the top with six rounds at a time in en-bloc clips.
The clips fall out the bottom when empty. Clips are available here and there.

Design is basically Mannlicher (a competitor of Mauser) with some Italian tweaks. Not a great gun, but not as bad as commonly reported.

redlantrn · October 9, 2008, 07:15 PM

Thanks Jim. would you have a ballpark estimate as far as value? Oh, and not to get too O/T, but isn't this the same gun Oswald used to kill JFK?

Tom2 · October 9, 2008, 07:59 PM

I have seen them for 150-250 at gunshows depending on condition and the seller. As the clips and ammo are not easy to aquire, but not impossible, there is less interest in them as compared to some of the more common surps around right now, that you can get ammo for. I think the Germans converted some of the Italian rifles to 8MM so they could interchange ammo with them but I am not sure which models of the Italian rifles were done so. ANd I also think the 8MM conversions might not be as safe as original configuration either. Well not saying there is no interest in them. As collectables they have their place but folks looking for shooters generally try something else unless very serious. I think historically the ww2 Italian rifles have not brought alot of money. Sort of like the Japanese rifles were but interest in those has finally driven up prices. As well as a bit more new ammo available. Not exactly the same rifle that LHO used but he got it because it was real cheap at the time. Your little carbine is a somewhat different configuration I believe. Might be a bear to shoot being short like that, sort of like the short MN rifles are more intense to shoot than the long rifles.

redlantrn · October 9, 2008, 10:05 PM

Included on top of breech is the date 1923. SN# 5243. From what I have found, I believe it is a 7mm chambering.Any idea on approximate value?
Thanks

James K · October 9, 2008, 10:21 PM

It is a Spanish Model 1916 short rifle. The action is the same as the Model 1893 rifle. Oviedo was the site of one of the two Spanish government rifle factories. It is in Asturias in northern Spain. The other factory was at La Coruna in the northwest, on the Atlantic.

Unless altered, the caliber would be 7mm or 7x57, which we call the 7mm Mauser.

Jim

mnw42 · October 10, 2008, 07:36 AM

Gun one is a Carcano Calvary Carbine (Moschetto Cavalleria). The folding bayonet is the give away. The Carcano uses 6 rd. en-bloc clips that drop out of the bottom of the magazine when the last round is chambered. It is probably chambered in 6.5x52mm. It may also be 7.53mm, though that is unlikely.

The Italians made a few different carbine versions of the M1891. Yours is an earlier version with the adjustable rear sight. Later ones had a fixed rear sight like the M38 TS (Oswald used one). They also made carbines from cut down long rifles. Unfortunately, the majority of long rifles had gain twist rifling and the cut-down carbines don't have enough twist to stabilize the bullet. Your rifle is probably purposes built and will shoot just fine. Latter rifles with standard rifling and early rifles with unmolested barrels shoot pretty good.

The battle zero is 300m so keep that in mind. Hornady and Norma make ammo for it with the proper bullet size (.268"). Numrich has the clips which you will need if you want to shoot it. The 6.5mm is a very pleasant cartridge to shoot.

More info can be found here....http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

The

redlantrn · October 10, 2008, 10:48 AM

Ok, this one might be a little tricky, as there is no english writing anywhere, withthe exception of the SN#1817337. There is a marking that looks like a daisy at the base of the barrel,and some chinese? engraving. Hope the pic helps. Any input on calibre,approx age,value?
Thanks

mnw42 · October 10, 2008, 11:38 AM

It's an Arisaka of some sort.

**Mike Irwin** · October 10, 2008, 12:15 PM

You need to take some clearer photographs of that particular rifle.

Better lighting.

Concentrate on good, CLEAR photographs of the markings on the breech, the bolt handle, and the muzzle area.

It's impossible to tell right now whether it's a chopped up after war conversion, or whether you have a real gem.

redlantrn · October 10, 2008, 12:47 PM

Thanks for the tips Mike. I have taken a few more pics. Even with the flash off, its difficult to get a good shot of the breech. Hope these help.

James K · October 10, 2008, 01:14 PM

It is a Japanese Type 38 rifle, pretty well sporterized, ruining it for collectors. Too bad as the chrysanthemum (symbol of the Japanese emperor) appears to be intact, which would have made it more valuable to collectors. The presence of the "mum" crest indicates the rifle was captured in combat; rifles surrendered from depots after the war have the crest ground off. The U.S. allowed the crest to be ground so the emperor's symbol would not be disgraced; at the time, we needed his cooperation in keeping Japan under control.

The first symbol should be three horizontal lines which is 3 and then a symbol that looks like reversed parens )( which is 8, then a third symbol that means "Type" or "Model". So it reads "38 Type". If the caliber is unaltered, it is 6.5x50 or 6.5 Japanese.

The slots in the receiver were for a dust cover that slid back and forth with the bolt. They are often missing; reportedly Japanese soldiers themselves discarded them because they rattled.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · October 10, 2008, 01:42 PM

Crap.

Yep, that's exactly what it is.

Someone turned a Type 38 into a Mannlicher style carbine.

Supposedly there were some pre-Type 38 Mannlicher-type cavalry carbines made (based on the Type 30? I can't remember right now), but never taken into standard service.

redlantrn · October 10, 2008, 03:49 PM

Thanks guys. Heres #4. Receiver Says U.S. Model of 1917 Winchester. A little more straightforward. than last gun. From my research I believe it's an Enfield 30-06. Serial #437946
has it been sporterized?/value thoughts?

Thanks!

Jim Watson · October 10, 2008, 04:32 PM

Yup, US model of 1917 .30-06, very many issued in WW I.
Looks GI to me, except for the strap-on cheek pad.
I can't tell the type of finish or condition, but if it is in good shape and especially if it is blue, it has some collector value, I won't guess the dollars.

Chipperman · October 10, 2008, 05:46 PM

The 1917 appears to be unmolested as far as is visible from that pic. Take off that pad, though. Blech!

IMO, the 1917 is a very underappreciated rifle. What is the date on top of barrel behind the front sight?

The reciever is 1918, so if the barrel is 1918-1919, it's going to be more valuable.
The Winchester make is more valued than Eddystone as well, b/c fewer were made.

redlantrn · October 10, 2008, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the info Chipperman.
Date on barrel is 1918 (would have never thought to look there for the date). Cheek pad is pretty ugly.Wasn't sure if I should leave it on or not. Some of the rubber "butt protectors" on some of these guns were so dry rotted, they broke into a million pieces when I took them off.

redlantrn · October 10, 2008, 09:02 PM

While this particular gun may not have any monetary value, it has sentimental value as my grandfather (who is still alive) bought this gun at Sears in 1936 when he was 14 years old. He still talks about it as if he bought it yesterday, and it will stay in the family. It is a Ranger model 101-14 in 22 cal. Just thought I would post a pic of it.

Jim Watson · October 10, 2008, 10:09 PM

Sears didn't own a gun factory, this one was made for them by Stevens.

redlantrn · October 11, 2008, 09:06 AM

Ok, this rifles in kinda rough shape. On the top of the breech is stamped 1955, underneath which is the number 26. Under the 26 is the SN# 3063517. SN on bolt does not match the others. 7.62mm stamped on rear of receiver.
Thanks!

Chipperman · October 11, 2008, 11:51 AM

That's an M44.
Does it have a soviet crest on the top of the reciever?

redlantrn · October 11, 2008, 12:31 PM

There is no soviet crest on top of the receiver. It has 3 asian symbols above 1955

Dr. Strangelove · October 11, 2008, 03:50 PM

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with your pictures the way the are, there are a couple of things you might consider to make it easier to evaluate the firearm in question.

Try to remove anything from the picture that is not relevant to what you what identified. An old white bed sheet draped over your wire shelf would suffice, better yet spread it out on a table, counter, or even the floor and shoot it there (the picture, not the rifle

).

If you can use natural light instead of the flash, your pictures won't have glare. Outside is best, if that's not an option, take the picture in front of a large window or sliding glass door. Even a couple of desk lamps will do in a pinch.

Use the macro setting on your camera for close-ups such as proof marks, receiver shots, etc. You will need to be within four inches or so on most cameras. (The crest on the Ariska would be an example)

I don't mean to suggest that there is anything wrong with your pictures, just thought it might be helpful. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

redlantrn · October 11, 2008, 04:00 PM

Hey Dr S.

Thanks for your photo tips. I'm a complete FNG when it comes to guns, let alone photography, andf will definitely take your tips into consideration. I have been trying not to use the flash, due to obvious glare reasons.
To show my appreciation, my next pic will look less novice-like.
Thanks again!

October 9, 2008, 07:59 PM	#5
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	I have seen them for 150-250 at gunshows depending on condition and the seller. As the clips and ammo are not easy to aquire, but not impossible, there is less interest in them as compared to some of the more common surps around right now, that you can get ammo for. I think the Germans converted some of the Italian rifles to 8MM so they could interchange ammo with them but I am not sure which models of the Italian rifles were done so. ANd I also think the 8MM conversions might not be as safe as original configuration either. Well not saying there is no interest in them. As collectables they have their place but folks looking for shooters generally try something else unless very serious. I think historically the ww2 Italian rifles have not brought alot of money. Sort of like the Japanese rifles were but interest in those has finally driven up prices. As well as a bit more new ammo available. Not exactly the same rifle that LHO used but he got it because it was real cheap at the time. Your little carbine is a somewhat different configuration I believe. Might be a bear to shoot being short like that, sort of like the short MN rifles are more intense to shoot than the long rifles. __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

October 10, 2008, 07:36 AM	#8
mnw42 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2008 Location: Bucks Co., PA Posts: 210	gun #1 Gun one is a Carcano Calvary Carbine (Moschetto Cavalleria). The folding bayonet is the give away. The Carcano uses 6 rd. en-bloc clips that drop out of the bottom of the magazine when the last round is chambered. It is probably chambered in 6.5x52mm. It may also be 7.53mm, though that is unlikely. The Italians made a few different carbine versions of the M1891. Yours is an earlier version with the adjustable rear sight. Later ones had a fixed rear sight like the M38 TS (Oswald used one). They also made carbines from cut down long rifles. Unfortunately, the majority of long rifles had gain twist rifling and the cut-down carbines don't have enough twist to stabilize the bullet. Your rifle is probably purposes built and will shoot just fine. Latter rifles with standard rifling and early rifles with unmolested barrels shoot pretty good. The battle zero is 300m so keep that in mind. Hornady and Norma make ammo for it with the proper bullet size (.268"). Numrich has the clips which you will need if you want to shoot it. The 6.5mm is a very pleasant cartridge to shoot. More info can be found here....http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ The

October 10, 2008, 12:15 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	You need to take some clearer photographs of that particular rifle. Better lighting. Concentrate on good, CLEAR photographs of the markings on the breech, the bolt handle, and the muzzle area. It's impossible to tell right now whether it's a chopped up after war conversion, or whether you have a real gem. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 10, 2008, 01:42 PM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Crap. Yep, that's exactly what it is. Someone turned a Type 38 into a Mannlicher style carbine. Supposedly there were some pre-Type 38 Mannlicher-type cavalry carbines made (based on the Type 30? I can't remember right now), but never taken into standard service. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 11, 2008, 03:50 PM	#24
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	Just a suggestion... While there is absolutely nothing wrong with your pictures the way the are, there are a couple of things you might consider to make it easier to evaluate the firearm in question. Try to remove anything from the picture that is not relevant to what you what identified. An old white bed sheet draped over your wire shelf would suffice, better yet spread it out on a table, counter, or even the floor and shoot it there (the picture, not the rifle). If you can use natural light instead of the flash, your pictures won't have glare. Outside is best, if that's not an option, take the picture in front of a large window or sliding glass door. Even a couple of desk lamps will do in a pinch. Use the macro setting on your camera for close-ups such as proof marks, receiver shots, etc. You will need to be within four inches or so on most cameras. (The crest on the Ariska would be an example) I don't mean to suggest that there is anything wrong with your pictures, just thought it might be helpful. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

October 9, 2008, 06:15 PM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	It's a sporterized/chopped Italian Army Terni rifle - only been dropped once (when the owner surrendered) . IIRC, the caliber/cartridge should be one of the small, rimmed, European 6.5's (6.5 Caracano ?). It's an Italian rip-off of an 1891 Mauser design. .

October 9, 2008, 06:46 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,544	Gotta disagree with PetaW . The illustrated rifle is an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano Model 38 carbine in Italian WW II army issue configuration, complete with folding bayonet. Caliber 6.5x52 Carcano. 36-XIV is the date code, 1936, the 14th year of Mussolini's regime. It is not "missing magazine", the magazine is integral with the trigger guard but has to be loaded from the top with six rounds at a time in en-bloc clips. The clips fall out the bottom when empty. Clips are available here and there. Design is basically Mannlicher (a competitor of Mauser) with some Italian tweaks. Not a great gun, but not as bad as commonly reported.

October 9, 2008, 07:15 PM	#4
redlantrn Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 93	Thanks Jim. would you have a ballpark estimate as far as value? Oh, and not to get too O/T, but isn't this the same gun Oswald used to kill JFK? Last edited by redlantrn; October 9, 2008 at 07:57 PM.

October 9, 2008, 10:21 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is a Spanish Model 1916 short rifle. The action is the same as the Model 1893 rifle. Oviedo was the site of one of the two Spanish government rifle factories. It is in Asturias in northern Spain. The other factory was at La Coruna in the northwest, on the Atlantic. Unless altered, the caliber would be 7mm or 7x57, which we call the 7mm Mauser. Jim

October 10, 2008, 11:38 AM	#10
mnw42 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2008 Location: Bucks Co., PA Posts: 210	It's an Arisaka of some sort.

October 10, 2008, 01:14 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is a Japanese Type 38 rifle, pretty well sporterized, ruining it for collectors. Too bad as the chrysanthemum (symbol of the Japanese emperor) appears to be intact, which would have made it more valuable to collectors. The presence of the "mum" crest indicates the rifle was captured in combat; rifles surrendered from depots after the war have the crest ground off. The U.S. allowed the crest to be ground so the emperor's symbol would not be disgraced; at the time, we needed his cooperation in keeping Japan under control. The first symbol should be three horizontal lines which is 3 and then a symbol that looks like reversed parens )( which is 8, then a third symbol that means "Type" or "Model". So it reads "38 Type". If the caliber is unaltered, it is 6.5x50 or 6.5 Japanese. The slots in the receiver were for a dust cover that slid back and forth with the bolt. They are often missing; reportedly Japanese soldiers themselves discarded them because they rattled. Jim

October 10, 2008, 04:32 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,544	Yup, US model of 1917 .30-06, very many issued in WW I. Looks GI to me, except for the strap-on cheek pad. I can't tell the type of finish or condition, but if it is in good shape and especially if it is blue, it has some collector value, I won't guess the dollars.

October 10, 2008, 05:46 PM	#17
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	The 1917 appears to be unmolested as far as is visible from that pic. Take off that pad, though. Blech! IMO, the 1917 is a very underappreciated rifle. What is the date on top of barrel behind the front sight? The reciever is 1918, so if the barrel is 1918-1919, it's going to be more valuable. The Winchester make is more valued than Eddystone as well, b/c fewer were made.

October 10, 2008, 08:18 PM	#18
redlantrn Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 93	Thanks for the info Chipperman. Date on barrel is 1918 (would have never thought to look there for the date). Cheek pad is pretty ugly.Wasn't sure if I should leave it on or not. Some of the rubber "butt protectors" on some of these guns were so dry rotted, they broke into a million pieces when I took them off.

October 10, 2008, 10:09 PM	#20
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,544	Sears didn't own a gun factory, this one was made for them by Stevens.

October 11, 2008, 11:51 AM	#22
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	That's an M44. Does it have a soviet crest on the top of the reciever?

October 11, 2008, 12:31 PM	#23
redlantrn Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 93	There is no soviet crest on top of the receiver. It has 3 asian symbols above 1955

October 11, 2008, 04:00 PM	#25
redlantrn Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 93	pic quality Hey Dr S. Thanks for your photo tips. I'm a complete FNG when it comes to guns, let alone photography, andf will definitely take your tips into consideration. I have been trying not to use the flash, due to obvious glare reasons. To show my appreciation, my next pic will look less novice-like. Thanks again!