Savage failing to make groups - Page 3

Jim243 · September 9, 2011, 09:16 PM

Regardless of clothing, let's start over again and get back to basics.

Quote:

We CANNOT make groups to save our lives. We can zero perfectly fine at 25-50yrds and when we push it out to 100 yrds it gets more difficult to narrow down our groups so we settle for a general, loose zero, but when we push out to 200 yrds, our so called groups spread out almost two feet with random shots all over.

As I understand it, you both have brand new Savage Package guns in 7mm rem mag??

First question is, are they with or without Accutriggers??

Second is, did they come with targets showing the test firings??

Third, did you keep the Simmons 3-9x40 mm scope that came with the rifle??

Fourth, did you use the rings that came with the rifle or change them??

Fifth, is did you really do a good cleaning job on the rifle before shooting it, not just the barrel, but the bolt and receiver as well?? Do you have crud under your extractor? Is the firing pin chanel clean and lubed?? Did you remove the firing pin spring and put it back backwards.

From you inital remarks, I would expect to see these type of results from a rifle with the headspace far off from what it should be, or a extractor not holding the cartrage flat to the bolt face.

Next problem would be if you installed new rings and did not square them up properly to the barrels axis and had to shift the zero of the scope far to one side or the other. Or installed aluminium rings instead of steel ones and are torquing the aluminium rings from the recoil of a mag rifle. Not all rings will hold up to the same amount of recoil.

My first act would be to take the rifle to a gunsmith and have him check out the headspace and function of the bolt. The second would be to replace the rings with a DECENT set of metal rings that will hold up to the recoil.

While you can get away with this on a non-mag rifle, you are reaching a different level with a rifle that is shooting 7mm rem mags or 300 win mags.

Just something you can check out without a lot of cost.

Jim

603Country · September 9, 2011, 10:38 PM

2 similar rifles shooting 20 inch groups at 200 yards...? If the groups were the same (stringing), then maybe it's the stock making contact. But, I had a buddy with a rifle that did some serious stringing when it heated up and it wasn't the stock contact, but was a bad barrel, which isn't likely in this case. If it's just a big random group from both rifles, it's tempting to say it's the shooter, but I doubt that's the problem. And it seems unlikely that both rifles would do the same thing. And I doubt it's the ammo. If it's not severe copper fouling, which seems a strong maybe since they shoot together and shoot in the same manner, I agree with the guys that say it has something to do with the mounts and rings. First I'd clean the barrel again and again with a good copper solvent till I quit getting green patches and try shooting again, and that might take more cleaning than you think is necessary. If that didn't fix it, I'd take the scope and mounts off and carefully mount them again, or have a gunsmith do it.

I had a similar problem last year that turned out to be the scope, but to have two scopes of different makes going bad at the same time seems a low percentage possibility.

bamaranger · September 10, 2011, 02:01 AM

Simple way to find out if its you or the rifle is to have somebody else who can shoot well, shoot the rifle for group.

If the rifle groups, guess what?

You will not see a "flinch" with live ammo. Instruct a buddy to pass the rifle to you, SAFELY, sometimes loaded, other times w/ an empty chamber, and hold and press off a good trigger stroke. The object is that you will not know if the piece is loaded or not, until the trigger trips. If the cross hairs bobble, your anticipating and that can have a major effect on groups.

trg42wraglefragle · September 10, 2011, 06:52 PM

I have to kind of agree with L_Killkenny.
Its not that what you wear makes a difference but normal people will be more inclined to help someone who looks respectful opposed to someone who doesn't.
But thats not to say the OP doesn't dress respectfully.
I know there are lots of people who are like this, just look at all the people who comment in post about mall ninjas.

I personally would be more inclined to help someone who look respectful, talked politely and listened to advice I gave them.
Call me old fashioned by thats the way the world used to be, and just because times have changed doesn't mean they have changed for the better.

HKFan9 · September 10, 2011, 09:18 PM

I was always told not to judge a book by its cover. If you want to run around in stores in 5.11 gear then be my guest... but more often times than not we get people at the counter wearing their "tactical" clothing, and telling us how much of a professional they are... when it becomes clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

Like I said... when me and my co-workers go to the range its about shooting, not a fashion shot. Its usually jeans.. Tshirts... hoodies... boots, I happen to have waterproof Northface hiking shoes I use at the range because the metal plate and 8 screws in my ankle can't handle a high cut boot well.

It just shouldn't be an issue of what people are wearing. Period... actions speak louder than words... and dress in my world.

Like I and others have stated we didn't rule out it might be operator error... but to me it sounds like a mounting issue... but needless to say people shouldn't talk down to novice shooters on the forum. People are hear to learn... we're all at different levels.

BIG P · September 10, 2011, 11:45 PM

IMHO I think you should slow down some more,If the barrel is hotter than the coffee you drink slow down.Use a table & sand bag use the same cheek weld everytime.Shoot 2 or 3 times check the target let it cool 5 mins or so it dont take a 7mag or the 30-06 much to get hot.
If it groups at 25- 50 it shouldnt change that much,Whats the chances of 2 savages throwing the same 20'' groups.I'm not throwlng rocks here im just saying. might try getting GOOD groups @ 100 before you get carried away@ 200yards.everybodys skills are different.good luck hope you get it worked out.

September 10, 2011, 02:01 AM	#53
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	easy Simple way to find out if its you or the rifle is to have somebody else who can shoot well, shoot the rifle for group. If the rifle groups, guess what? You will not see a "flinch" with live ammo. Instruct a buddy to pass the rifle to you, SAFELY, sometimes loaded, other times w/ an empty chamber, and hold and press off a good trigger stroke. The object is that you will not know if the piece is loaded or not, until the trigger trips. If the cross hairs bobble, your anticipating and that can have a major effect on groups.

September 9, 2011, 10:38 PM	#52
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	2 similar rifles shooting 20 inch groups at 200 yards...? If the groups were the same (stringing), then maybe it's the stock making contact. But, I had a buddy with a rifle that did some serious stringing when it heated up and it wasn't the stock contact, but was a bad barrel, which isn't likely in this case. If it's just a big random group from both rifles, it's tempting to say it's the shooter, but I doubt that's the problem. And it seems unlikely that both rifles would do the same thing. And I doubt it's the ammo. If it's not severe copper fouling, which seems a strong maybe since they shoot together and shoot in the same manner, I agree with the guys that say it has something to do with the mounts and rings. First I'd clean the barrel again and again with a good copper solvent till I quit getting green patches and try shooting again, and that might take more cleaning than you think is necessary. If that didn't fix it, I'd take the scope and mounts off and carefully mount them again, or have a gunsmith do it. I had a similar problem last year that turned out to be the scope, but to have two scopes of different makes going bad at the same time seems a low percentage possibility.

September 10, 2011, 06:52 PM	#54
trg42wraglefragle Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2008 Location: new zealand Posts: 856	I have to kind of agree with L_Killkenny. Its not that what you wear makes a difference but normal people will be more inclined to help someone who looks respectful opposed to someone who doesn't. But thats not to say the OP doesn't dress respectfully. I know there are lots of people who are like this, just look at all the people who comment in post about mall ninjas. I personally would be more inclined to help someone who look respectful, talked politely and listened to advice I gave them. Call me old fashioned by thats the way the world used to be, and just because times have changed doesn't mean they have changed for the better.

September 10, 2011, 09:18 PM	#55
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	I was always told not to judge a book by its cover. If you want to run around in stores in 5.11 gear then be my guest... but more often times than not we get people at the counter wearing their "tactical" clothing, and telling us how much of a professional they are... when it becomes clear they have no idea what they are talking about. Like I said... when me and my co-workers go to the range its about shooting, not a fashion shot. Its usually jeans.. Tshirts... hoodies... boots, I happen to have waterproof Northface hiking shoes I use at the range because the metal plate and 8 screws in my ankle can't handle a high cut boot well. It just shouldn't be an issue of what people are wearing. Period... actions speak louder than words... and dress in my world. Like I and others have stated we didn't rule out it might be operator error... but to me it sounds like a mounting issue... but needless to say people shouldn't talk down to novice shooters on the forum. People are hear to learn... we're all at different levels.

September 10, 2011, 11:45 PM	#56
BIG P Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2010 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,679	IMHO I think you should slow down some more,If the barrel is hotter than the coffee you drink slow down.Use a table & sand bag use the same cheek weld everytime.Shoot 2 or 3 times check the target let it cool 5 mins or so it dont take a 7mag or the 30-06 much to get hot. If it groups at 25- 50 it shouldnt change that much,Whats the chances of 2 savages throwing the same 20'' groups.I'm not throwlng rocks here im just saying. might try getting GOOD groups @ 100 before you get carried away@ 200yards.everybodys skills are different.good luck hope you get it worked out.