Improving technique for reloads

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 12:24 PM

I have posted in the past on some of the problems encountered in reloading and some solutions that have helped me.

I really like .308 and one of my friends wants me to help him work up some loads.

I told him I would size and trim some new match brass and start a couple of Nosler 168 gr, hpbt bullets into the case and then let him chamber the two rounds so I could get some measurements to start working up loads with bullets in the lands and at various distances off the lands.

I also did the same with my rifle. We are both shooting Remington 700P.

Imagine my surprise when I got the two rounds out of my rifle and found the length variation was over .1 inch.

I had trimmed the brass to 2.202 ( I know, I know s/b 2.205 ).

I measured the bullet length and found them to vary between 1.2035-1.2180.

I weighed the bullets and the variation is 168-168.3 gr. for a 10 piece sample.

Just to look at some other bullets, I measured and weighed some Bergers and some Sierra Matchking.

175 gr. SMK all checked between 1.225-1.237 in. long and 10 piece sample weighed 175.0-175.4 gr.

175 gr. Berger all checked between 1.271-1.282 in. and 10 piece sample weighed 175.0 gr.

The question I am getting to is whether or not a competition seating die is really worth the expense if the variation of the components makes it impossible to control the overall length?

Just from a brief look of the Nosler bullets, it appears the sample I have came from at LEAST two machines, One centered about 1.202 or so and the other at 1.218.

If any of you have some tips, I would like to hear them.

How do you select your bullets? Do you buy a box and segregate them by length? Weight?

Bergers are supposed to be excellent bullets and I am pleased with them at this point but I really question whether or not I can use the same technique to explore seating depth with them if the overall bullet length has so much variation.

If you have a master cartridge to set your seating die and the components are at one tail of the distribution and your components that you are loading are at the other end of the distribution what is the effect to the group? Does anyone know? CAN anyone know?

Sometimes I really wonder when we have "off" days at the range if it is always the nut behind the trigger.

If you have any links that you could share, I would appreciate it.

I know we can beat this subject to death and really the question probably would not have surfaced had I not loaded two bullets into the lands and saw such a variation in the overall length.

Geetarman

Jim243 · May 7, 2010, 01:20 PM

Nothing to do with reloading. Some brass is harder than others some softer.

When you said "I took two rounds out of my gun", I am assuming you ment after they were fired. Some cases will streach and some will not (depends on the brass).

That's why you need to trim all rifle brass AFTER you decap and resize it.

I would not be concerned on the 0.10 difference after firing, but I would sort the brass by head stamp and reload batches by brass mfg.

Jim

Slamfire · May 7, 2010, 01:35 PM

Quote:

I had trimmed the brass to 2.202 ( I know, I know s/b 2.205 ).

What 308 brass are you using? I trim mine to 2.0" give or take a couple thousandths.

I seat my 168's and 175's to magazine depth. Which is a little less than 2.80"

Bullets vary in length, so make sure that the case with the longest bullet is less than 2.80"

Maybe a bench rester might see something on target due to bullet length, but sure as heck, you are not going to see anything on target with a hand held rifle.

I like competition dies with the micrometer numbering because it is easy to dial up and down for 190's, 168's, 175's. I don't believe "competition" dies, sizing or seating, makes any difference on target with a hand held rifle.

Bullet weight is one heck of a lot better than it used to be. Match bullets being held to .3 grs is very good. Lots of national records were set with the 174 FMJBT which varied as much as two grains between bullets. Better bullets allowed the best shooters to shoot smaller groups, but the real difference between shooters is shooting ability.

Out at 600 yards and further, your wind judgement, aiming error, and hold will produce greater errors than any of those bullet weight differences you described.

Shooting is a skill you have to learn through practice.

You cannot compensate for poor shooting skills by buying expensive reloading equipment.

So load more and shoot more.

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 01:46 PM

Jim243,

The brass in question is new Hornady Match brass. Never been loaded.

The question is whether or not two NEW brass, trimmed to the same length and with two Nosler 168 gr. bullets both at the same length would be jammed into the lands and yield similar overall lengths. That is where the .1 difference came into play and in my book, that is a lot.

The fact that I got such a difference makes me wonder about the value of a competition seating die. It is convenient for sure.

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 02:01 PM

Slamfire,

"What 308 brass are you using? I trim mine to 2.0" give or take a couple thousandths."

Hornady Match brass for this evolution.

"I seat my 168's and 175's to magazine depth. Which is a little less than 2.80"

I have been shooting some Bergers and when following their method of finding the sweet spot, some OAL will not feed through a magazine.
That does not bother me with this rifle as I shoot them one at a time

"Bullets vary in length, so make sure that the case with the longest bullet is less than 2.80"

Any idea on HOW much variation is normal for a given bullet weight?

"Maybe a bench rester might see something on target due to bullet length, but sure as heck, you are not going to see anything on target with a hand held rifle."

I am shooting off a bench. That is what started this whole thread about .308 loads. How to get rid of the variables that cause large groups. I am a firm believer there is no such thing as a random "flyer." We apply that term when we do not fully understand the underlying cause of the "flyer."

"I like competition dies with the micrometer numbering because it is easy to dial up and down for 190's, 168's, 175's. I don't believe "competition" dies, sizing or seating, makes any difference on target with a hand held rifle."

I posted some target photos of my groups with Berger bullets seated at varying depths off the lands. The differences are remarkable.

"Bullet weight is one heck of a lot better than it used to be. Match bullets being held to .3 grs is very good. Lots of national records were set with the 174 FMJBT which varied as much as two grains between bullets. Better bullets allowed the best shooters to shoot smaller groups, but the real difference between shooters is shooting ability."

My electronic scale has .1 gr. resolution and my Bergers all weighed 175 gr.

The SMK and Noslers showed up to .4 gr. variation.

"Out at 600 yards and further, your wind judgement, aiming error, and hold will produce greater errors than any of those bullet weight differences you described."

No argument from me.

"Shooting is a skill you have to learn through practice."

True, it also pays off to pay attention to the little things that can and will affect your groups.

Geetarman

Jim243 · May 7, 2010, 02:01 PM

geetarman

That is strange indeed. New brass trimmed and set to the same OAL.

The only thing I can guess at is that the thickness of the necks were different and one streached and the other did not. I know it is a pratice of benchrest shooters to measure the thickness of the walls in their case necks to insure it is the same for all of their loads. If it is not they then trim (turn) the neck thickness.

I have not needed to do that, but it would be my guess.

Jim

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 02:21 PM

Jim,

This brass still has NOT been fired. What I am saying is that two new unloaded brass trimmed to the same length and two bullets of the same length when loaded into the lands of this rifle in order to get a base micrometer setting for the seating die do not yield the same overall length. This mismatch is on the order of .1 inch and that is a lot.

There has to be variation in the ogive of the bullet to allow for such a difference in measured seating depth.

If the brass is the same length, the bullets are the same length and we are only talking about one rifle, it pretty much has to be some form error of the bullet shape.

I would be interested in any information that might shed light on this.

One of the things that I have taken for granted was that if I wanted to seat a bullet in the lands or a specific distance off the land, I would take a sized, trimmed brass with no primer or powder and start the bullet into the case.

Take THAT round and load it into the chamber and close the bolt. Take the cartridge out of the gun and measure the overall length. That number is a base number from which to adjust the die to get whatever seating depth I want.

What I am seeing here is that two brass and two bullets do NOT yield the same overall length and there has to be a reason for it.

Geetarman

**Unclenick** · May 7, 2010, 02:27 PM

Geetarman,

The 0.015 or so difference you see in match hollow point bullet length is normal. The difference is all at the tip. If you look close, some are flat, some are angled. The jackets are trimmed before the point is formed, and that's why this occurs—it's asking a lot to expect to go from an open cup to a tiny point with all sides forming to exactly the same length. However, if you measure the bullet length with a bullet comparator that touches down on the bullet ogive, rather than length to the tip, that will give you much more consistent results. Within a couple thousandths isn't unusual. Your competition seater dies don't press the bullet into the case from the very tip, but rather push it from further down along the ogive, so they avoid that tip location variance.

If it really bothers you, get a bullet meplat uniforming tool. I understand it can reduce vertical stringing by as much as 4" at 1000 yards, where the high arc in the angle exaggerates small drag differences. At the 600 yards and closer, you will be hard put to see a definite difference.

You can have variance along the ogive with bulk brand bullets, like Winchester or Remington, because they mix the production output off multiple forming die sets. For that reason, Sierra assigns lot numbers only to bullets that came off the same tooling and machine. I don't know about Nosler's match bullets?

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 02:34 PM

Unclenick,

I was hoping you would chime in here. What you state is what I was thinking.

I did not think it would amount to that much.

I think the Noslers are at best coming from two machines within the same lot.

I think one machine is centered around 1.200 and the other around 1.215.

I would have to build a histogram to know for sure. I may just be forced to do that as it really has my curiosity aroused.

Thanks for the feedback.

Geetarman

zippy13 · May 7, 2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geetarman

Imagine my surprise when I got the two rounds out of my rifle and found the length variation was over .1 inch.

I suspect there's another factor involved to get a variance exceeding 0.10-inch -- that's huge. Are you certain that there wasn't some bullet pull (withdrawal) during extraction? Were the cases primer-less (to avoid the possibility of compressing the air within them)? Perhaps if you were to try again, but do your measuring with the bullet in place, you could resolve the discrepancy. Carefully measuring a rod (down the barrel) at the muzzle should easily determine if there is really a 0.10+ difference from bullet to bullet. Another approach would be to measure the case in place via the flash hole to the bullet's base (you'd probably have to remove the extractor for this method). -- just a thought.

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 06:50 PM

Zippy,

I full length sized the new brass and there were no primers.

I then trimmed both brasses to 2.802 and chamfered inside and outside case necks.

I felt definite resistance when I started the bullet into the case and I felt resistance when I chambered the round.

I did NOT feel any pull when I took the round out and could see no shaving that would indicate the bullet had pulled forward.

It is still something of a puzzle to me as I consider .1 change really significant.

I will keep looking but do not have any really good answers yet.

Geetarman

mrawesome22 · May 7, 2010, 07:38 PM

Try this method.

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 08:38 PM

mrawesome,

I looked at your method. What is the purpose of the slot? There must be a reason I am not seeing.

joneb · May 7, 2010, 09:09 PM

I still don't get the 2.202-5" case length

.308 Win. max case length is 2.150" I know it was addressed but was it resolved ?
http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

Brian Pfleuger · May 7, 2010, 09:31 PM

Quote:

I looked at your method. What is the purpose of the slot? There must be a reason I am not seeing.

The purpose of cutting the case is to allow the bullet to slide in with relative ease. If you left the case intact, you would either not be able to close the action or the force of doing so would jam the bullet so hard into the rifling that you either could not OPEN the action or the bullet would pull back out of the case and give you an incorrect reading.

A slightly less fancy method that I used was to trim the neck of a ruined case very short. The decreased length has the same effect as slitting the neck but I didn't have a good saw for cutting and I did have a neck trimmer.

geetarman · May 7, 2010, 09:37 PM

Thanks for the reply. That makes sense. I did not notice any undue force in chambering the round or in extraction. Not saying it could not have happened.

I have been doing it this way for years. The only difference to me was using two brass and getting vastly different results.

That is something to mull over. . .

zippy13 · May 7, 2010, 10:58 PM

...or the bullet would pull back out of the case and give you an incorrect reading.

Although he was not aware of it, I still suspect that explains the OP's 0.10+ inch difference.

May 7, 2010, 12:24 PM	#1
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Improving technique for reloads I have posted in the past on some of the problems encountered in reloading and some solutions that have helped me. I really like .308 and one of my friends wants me to help him work up some loads. I told him I would size and trim some new match brass and start a couple of Nosler 168 gr, hpbt bullets into the case and then let him chamber the two rounds so I could get some measurements to start working up loads with bullets in the lands and at various distances off the lands. I also did the same with my rifle. We are both shooting Remington 700P. Imagine my surprise when I got the two rounds out of my rifle and found the length variation was over .1 inch. I had trimmed the brass to 2.202 ( I know, I know s/b 2.205 ). I measured the bullet length and found them to vary between 1.2035-1.2180. I weighed the bullets and the variation is 168-168.3 gr. for a 10 piece sample. Just to look at some other bullets, I measured and weighed some Bergers and some Sierra Matchking. 175 gr. SMK all checked between 1.225-1.237 in. long and 10 piece sample weighed 175.0-175.4 gr. 175 gr. Berger all checked between 1.271-1.282 in. and 10 piece sample weighed 175.0 gr. The question I am getting to is whether or not a competition seating die is really worth the expense if the variation of the components makes it impossible to control the overall length? Just from a brief look of the Nosler bullets, it appears the sample I have came from at LEAST two machines, One centered about 1.202 or so and the other at 1.218. If any of you have some tips, I would like to hear them. How do you select your bullets? Do you buy a box and segregate them by length? Weight? Bergers are supposed to be excellent bullets and I am pleased with them at this point but I really question whether or not I can use the same technique to explore seating depth with them if the overall bullet length has so much variation. If you have a master cartridge to set your seating die and the components are at one tail of the distribution and your components that you are loading are at the other end of the distribution what is the effect to the group? Does anyone know? CAN anyone know? Sometimes I really wonder when we have "off" days at the range if it is always the nut behind the trigger. If you have any links that you could share, I would appreciate it. I know we can beat this subject to death and really the question probably would not have surfaced had I not loaded two bullets into the lands and saw such a variation in the overall length. Geetarman

May 7, 2010, 02:27 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,062	Geetarman, The 0.015 or so difference you see in match hollow point bullet length is normal. The difference is all at the tip. If you look close, some are flat, some are angled. The jackets are trimmed before the point is formed, and that's why this occurs—it's asking a lot to expect to go from an open cup to a tiny point with all sides forming to exactly the same length. However, if you measure the bullet length with a bullet comparator that touches down on the bullet ogive, rather than length to the tip, that will give you much more consistent results. Within a couple thousandths isn't unusual. Your competition seater dies don't press the bullet into the case from the very tip, but rather push it from further down along the ogive, so they avoid that tip location variance. If it really bothers you, get a bullet meplat uniforming tool. I understand it can reduce vertical stringing by as much as 4" at 1000 yards, where the high arc in the angle exaggerates small drag differences. At the 600 yards and closer, you will be hard put to see a definite difference. You can have variance along the ogive with bulk brand bullets, like Winchester or Remington, because they mix the production output off multiple forming die sets. For that reason, Sierra assigns lot numbers only to bullets that came off the same tooling and machine. I don't know about Nosler's match bullets? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; May 7, 2010 at 02:35 PM.

May 7, 2010, 01:20 PM	#2
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Nothing to do with reloading. Some brass is harder than others some softer. When you said "I took two rounds out of my gun", I am assuming you ment after they were fired. Some cases will streach and some will not (depends on the brass). That's why you need to trim all rifle brass AFTER you decap and resize it. I would not be concerned on the 0.10 difference after firing, but I would sort the brass by head stamp and reload batches by brass mfg. Jim

May 7, 2010, 01:46 PM	#4
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Jim243, The brass in question is new Hornady Match brass. Never been loaded. The question is whether or not two NEW brass, trimmed to the same length and with two Nosler 168 gr. bullets both at the same length would be jammed into the lands and yield similar overall lengths. That is where the .1 difference came into play and in my book, that is a lot. The fact that I got such a difference makes me wonder about the value of a competition seating die. It is convenient for sure.

May 7, 2010, 02:01 PM	#5
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Slamfire, "What 308 brass are you using? I trim mine to 2.0" give or take a couple thousandths." Hornady Match brass for this evolution. "I seat my 168's and 175's to magazine depth. Which is a little less than 2.80" I have been shooting some Bergers and when following their method of finding the sweet spot, some OAL will not feed through a magazine. That does not bother me with this rifle as I shoot them one at a time "Bullets vary in length, so make sure that the case with the longest bullet is less than 2.80" Any idea on HOW much variation is normal for a given bullet weight? "Maybe a bench rester might see something on target due to bullet length, but sure as heck, you are not going to see anything on target with a hand held rifle." I am shooting off a bench. That is what started this whole thread about .308 loads. How to get rid of the variables that cause large groups. I am a firm believer there is no such thing as a random "flyer." We apply that term when we do not fully understand the underlying cause of the "flyer." "I like competition dies with the micrometer numbering because it is easy to dial up and down for 190's, 168's, 175's. I don't believe "competition" dies, sizing or seating, makes any difference on target with a hand held rifle." I posted some target photos of my groups with Berger bullets seated at varying depths off the lands. The differences are remarkable. "Bullet weight is one heck of a lot better than it used to be. Match bullets being held to .3 grs is very good. Lots of national records were set with the 174 FMJBT which varied as much as two grains between bullets. Better bullets allowed the best shooters to shoot smaller groups, but the real difference between shooters is shooting ability." My electronic scale has .1 gr. resolution and my Bergers all weighed 175 gr. The SMK and Noslers showed up to .4 gr. variation. "Out at 600 yards and further, your wind judgement, aiming error, and hold will produce greater errors than any of those bullet weight differences you described." No argument from me. "Shooting is a skill you have to learn through practice." True, it also pays off to pay attention to the little things that can and will affect your groups. Geetarman

May 7, 2010, 02:21 PM	#7
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Jim, This brass still has NOT been fired. What I am saying is that two new unloaded brass trimmed to the same length and two bullets of the same length when loaded into the lands of this rifle in order to get a base micrometer setting for the seating die do not yield the same overall length. This mismatch is on the order of .1 inch and that is a lot. There has to be variation in the ogive of the bullet to allow for such a difference in measured seating depth. If the brass is the same length, the bullets are the same length and we are only talking about one rifle, it pretty much has to be some form error of the bullet shape. I would be interested in any information that might shed light on this. One of the things that I have taken for granted was that if I wanted to seat a bullet in the lands or a specific distance off the land, I would take a sized, trimmed brass with no primer or powder and start the bullet into the case. Take THAT round and load it into the chamber and close the bolt. Take the cartridge out of the gun and measure the overall length. That number is a base number from which to adjust the die to get whatever seating depth I want. What I am seeing here is that two brass and two bullets do NOT yield the same overall length and there has to be a reason for it. Geetarman

May 7, 2010, 02:34 PM	#9
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Unclenick, I was hoping you would chime in here. What you state is what I was thinking. I did not think it would amount to that much. I think the Noslers are at best coming from two machines within the same lot. I think one machine is centered around 1.200 and the other around 1.215. I would have to build a histogram to know for sure. I may just be forced to do that as it really has my curiosity aroused. Thanks for the feedback. Geetarman

May 7, 2010, 06:50 PM	#11
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Zippy, I full length sized the new brass and there were no primers. I then trimmed both brasses to 2.802 and chamfered inside and outside case necks. I felt definite resistance when I started the bullet into the case and I felt resistance when I chambered the round. I did NOT feel any pull when I took the round out and could see no shaving that would indicate the bullet had pulled forward. It is still something of a puzzle to me as I consider .1 change really significant. I will keep looking but do not have any really good answers yet. Geetarman

May 7, 2010, 07:38 PM	#12
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Try this method.

May 7, 2010, 08:38 PM	#13
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	mrawesome, I looked at your method. What is the purpose of the slot? There must be a reason I am not seeing.

May 7, 2010, 09:09 PM	#14
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I still don't get the 2.202-5" case length .308 Win. max case length is 2.150" I know it was addressed but was it resolved ? http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

May 7, 2010, 09:37 PM	#16
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	Thanks for the reply. That makes sense. I did not notice any undue force in chambering the round or in extraction. Not saying it could not have happened. I have been doing it this way for years. The only difference to me was using two brass and getting vastly different results. That is something to mull over. . .

May 7, 2010, 10:58 PM	#17
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	...or the bullet would pull back out of the case and give you an incorrect reading. Although he was not aware of it, I still suspect that explains the OP's 0.10+ inch difference.