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March 11, 2008, 02:06 AM | #1 |
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"What REALLY Happens In A Gun Fight": Good Read
Found this to be interesting:
What Really Happens In A Gunfight? The conclusions from twenty-five years of lethal force investigation. By Dave Spaulding http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...ght/index.html |
March 11, 2008, 02:17 AM | #2 | ||
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Definitely worth the read...
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March 11, 2008, 02:22 AM | #3 |
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gvf
Thank you for posting that link. I learn something new each time I read it.
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March 11, 2008, 10:45 AM | #4 |
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Good article, worth the read. I have bookmarked it to share and re-read. Thanks gvf!
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March 11, 2008, 11:38 AM | #5 |
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That article makes me think that a plain black front sight on a .45 ACP is not a good thing.
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March 11, 2008, 12:38 PM | #6 |
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Thanks.
Good info.
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March 11, 2008, 02:26 PM | #7 |
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Very good article. Thanks for posting. It feels good to be, at least a little, justified on several opinions I have. I have always prefered basic sights on my handguns with a colored front blade as opposed to a post-and-dot or 3-dot sight. I also believe that the idea of the classic "double tap" goes out the window in those situations as well as 2 to the center mass and then shooting at the head. It seems as though, from reading that article, that, that is most likely not going to happen. Good info on the ammo as well; typical of what most people suggest.
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March 11, 2008, 09:58 PM | #8 | |
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great article thanks for posting it!
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March 12, 2008, 05:10 AM | #9 | |
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Time dilation can be perceived at the time of the action or as a memory. Spaulding brings up a good point about unprepared folks not being able to catch up with action. That isn't the same thing as real time-time dilation where things are perceived to move more slowly as they happen (versus recalling them in slow motion). Real time-time dialation is associated with various stressors, most notably adrenaline dumps than can also produce tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc.
So the whole warp speed perception can be as Spaulding noted, being caught flat footed, or it could be as a result of having the action happen before the stressors resulted in the actual physiological time dilation perception. Quote:
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March 12, 2008, 01:40 PM | #10 |
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Typically, "winning" and "surviving" go hand in hand. In the vast majority of cases I have looked at so far, the bad guy's desire for self-preservation overrides the desire to kill. In most multiple assailant incidents, the assailants flee when the victim shoots back. This is one of the primary differences in military and LE -vs- civilian confrontations. In the former, the assailant has already decided to take as many of the with him when he goes. In the latter, the assailant usually is trying to achieve a goal (money, drugs, sex) through intimidation. The moment you take them off of their script, they aren't sure what to do.
Additionally, about 85% of the time handgun wounds are survivable (for victim or assailant). So lethality is not necessarily the same as winning. |
March 12, 2008, 05:43 PM | #11 | |||
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Quote:
It's about survival first, not winning a quick-draw shooting contest. Quote:
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The officers moved. .
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March 12, 2008, 11:49 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
1. Increased distance of engagement in encounters where the officer wins--increased distance favors the better trained. 2. Increased hit rate 62% vs 18%. The better the officer shot, the better his chances of "winning". 3. Making the first solid hit. In short, he attributes it (or rather he quotes Fairburn as attributing it) to being able to hit your target solidly and being able to do it faster than the criminal and at what some consider extended range. There's not so much as a hint in the pertinent section of the article to suggest that moving has anything to do with it.
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March 13, 2008, 05:13 AM | #13 |
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Reply to JohnKsa
My question would be, "Did the researcher address the issue of whether and how the officer had moved?"
If he did address the issue, and the officers responded that they had not moved, that would support the draw and fire argument. If he didn't address the issue, then no conclusion can really be drawn from his research. Vs blades and blunt instruments, I can tell you that those friends of mine who have stood ground and blocked or simultaneously struck have been stabbed, cut, and bashed. Those who have moved have taken minor, if any, injuries. Guns aren't melee weapons, but... (My past dojos have included several LEOs and a bunch of CO's) |
March 13, 2008, 11:48 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
M The difference between blades and bullets is important. You can see the line of attack with melee weapons clearly. Unlees you are O'sensei, you can't see nor dodge bullets. This thread shouldn't degenerate into a move -v- don't move argument (nor should have the other one). It's not about that. It's about what determines who prevails and the facts are indisputable - hitting the target first. |
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March 13, 2008, 12:31 PM | #15 |
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It isn't about dodging bullets
It is about messing with the other guy's focus and balance, and it's situationally dependent. In some cases it may help, and in some it may hinder.
Just curious about whether movement or non-movement was an actively pursued topic during the debriefs. |
March 13, 2008, 04:39 PM | #16 |
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Tache Psych
A couple of points:
Slow motion effect is real, I remember waiting for the slide to go forward on my 1911. This was happening between shots. After the war I refused to buy one because I actually thought that the slide velocity was very slow. Auditory exclusion always puzzled me but I understand now that it is a reaction to stress. It does not prevent damage to hearing. Your damage is permanent. Post shooting adrenaline dump is much worse than you think. Your judgement and perception are chemically altered during and after the fight. BTW Yes I speak from experience! RVN I Corps May 67 - May 68. 196th Light Infantry Brigade. |
March 13, 2008, 07:37 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
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March 13, 2008, 09:12 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
http://www.policeone.com/writers/col...rticles/77165/ Shooting on the move; using your instincts by Michael T. Rayburn According to FBI statistics, almost 95 percent of officer-involved shootings (OISs) occur at 21 feet or less, with approximately 75 percent occurring at 10 feet or less. It is also a fact that well over half of all OISs occur at 5 feet or less. With this being said, how much actual cover can there be between you and the felon who is trying to take your life? OISs are rapid, traumatic events that happen so suddenly a large percentage of officers involved in them say they were caught off guard. When this happens you fall victim to the action vs. reaction phenomenon, playing catch up to the suspect’s actions. The way to turn this around to your advantage is to move and move quickly. This forces the bad guy to play catch up to your action, your movement. Nationally, the average hit ratio for law enforcement officers, standing static shooting at a paper target, is 90-plus percent. Yet when an officer becomes involved in an OIS our hit ratio is somewhere around 12 to 18 percent. Obviously, some of the loss in accuracy can be attributed to stress and the fact that, in most cases, the officer is firing second in reaction to a shooter. But a large percentage of the difference can be attributed to the fact that an officer's instinctive reactions, in most cases, directly oppose the way he or she has been trained. When the shooting starts you're going to want to move and move quickly. If this is the case, then why not train that way all the time? Every time you go to the range you should be practicing shooting on the move. Is it more time consuming? Yes, it is, which means it's more costly. But nowhere near as costly as it would be to replace a fallen or injured officer. Author: Mike Rayburn is a 17-year veteran of the Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) Police Department and is the author of two books: "Advanced Vehicle Stop Tactics" and "Advanced Patrol Tactics." Mike is also an adjunct instructor for the Smith & Wesson Academy in Springfield, Mass.
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March 14, 2008, 10:27 AM | #19 | |
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