Shootout! Iwo Jima

.351winchester · November 4, 2006, 12:13 AM

Anyone catch this tonight? I never heard of the "Stinger" before. Was that the first SAW? Basically a M1919 with a selection of Garand (suck as Buttstock) and BAR (bipod, etc.) parts. One Marine scored 20 KIA's with one, alone, early in the battle (and went on to save 8 fellow soldier's lives by carrying them to safety). What an awesome weapon. Like Clyde's "scattergun" BAR's it just shows how relatively minor modifications can create a whole new weapon, and fill a niche when nothing else is available. It was no doubt heavy as hell but unlike the BAR took a belt.
I'll try to find a pic of one of these, in case someone didn't see the show, I dunno maybe you machine gun guys this is a well known LMG/SAW, but I had never heard of it before. Were there any SAW like guns back then? I mean that is what the BAR's role was, but something belt fed? I think I recall seeing a more portable MG-42 or other German MG.
Anyway great episode and great exposure of a improvised Squad automatic weapon.

.351winchester · November 4, 2006, 12:16 AM

It was the best episode yet, so far IMO. Hopefully they'll have a Miami Shootout episode this season

Sodbuster · November 4, 2006, 12:52 AM

It was a fighter plane machine gun adapted for shoulder fire use by the Marines on Iwo. That explains the buttstock here and bipod there parts list. I guess it could be a SAW.

VUPDblue · November 4, 2006, 10:49 AM

I believe there was a pretty large article in a recent issue of American Rifleman about just that gun. I'll look and see if I can find out which one. Like lots of the great innovations in wartime, these were adaptations of, or modifications of original designs. I have heard the stinger's capability and battle-winning characteristics compared to the hedgerow-busting attachments added to Sherman Tanks in Normandy in 1944. Those were made out of 'recycled' German beach obsticles. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all...

9mm1033 · November 4, 2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

It was the best episode yet, so far IMO.

I agree. It's simply unbelievable how anyone survived that battle. I'm sure at the gateway to heaven, those marines are escorted to the front of the line.

.351winchester · November 5, 2006, 02:10 AM

I never knew anything about Iwo Jima before. Figured for the length of the battle and the heavy casualties thought it was fought mostly with primarily heavy artillery, bombers, etc. These guys fought with everything from Garands and BARs, and that Stinger not just down to .45's, KaBars and mounted bayonets, many American Air Force servicemen as they slept were butchered by tanto and Wakizashi. I mean this was hardcore CQB that rivaled trench warfare of WWI, where the victor is also covered in blood. I like what the one vet said at the end of the show, when asked how many medals he earned for serving in the battle, "5. My head, 2 arms and 2 legs". I think every soldier on that island deserved official commendation. They are all my heroes, but particularly the Stinger gunner who on his way to grab more belts, threw 8 wounded guys up on his shoulder to safety after taking out dozens of the enemy, 20 permanantly. They said he was like a maverick too, I like that all the more; The soldier who jumped on the grenade to save his CO; and the Sergeant (?) who used his 1911 to snuff a pit full (4) of rifle armed Japanese. That CO is still pissed to this day about the tanks not being there. LOL @ "they're being refueled"

The valor in this show was like...if you saw a fictional movie with similar scenes, would seem completely unrealistic. But this is documented fact, and frankly the WWII films I've seen don't come close to doing justice to these men. Pearl Harbor was fresh in their minds like 9/11 is today, thse men fought with a rare display of courage and fearlessness. Really inspiring and humbling. Nothing like "Upham" of Saving Private Ryan.

If I was anywhere in public watching the show, would have stood and applauded.

SmokinTom · November 5, 2006, 07:23 AM

You should see Flags of our Fathers that just came out. It`s about Iwo Jima and a very good movie indeed. It`s also based on a true story. Tom

GeorgeF · November 6, 2006, 12:54 PM

We never hear thos kind of heroics going on today because its not PC to glamorize killing. Guys are just as heroic in Iraq right now (not to denigrate the WW2 vets, just trying to show the gung ho spirit is still alive).

Take for example Brian Chontosh - here's an excerpt:

It was a year ago on the march into Baghdad (2003). Brian Chontosh was a
platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a humvee. When all hell broke loose.
Ambush city.
The young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him. So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire.

It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish. And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them.

Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride.

And he ran down the trench. With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers. And he killed them all. He fought with the M16 until he was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion.

When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon's flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more.

The link to the USMC site with the account: http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn20...f/200456162723

And he got the Navy Cross - THATS the kind of thing we need to be hearing, yet instead we hear countless stories of how beleaguered soldiers murder a civilian and plant evidence on him to show he was a combatant. Which really serves our efforts?

mikejonestkd · November 6, 2006, 02:05 PM

Holy cow, I didn't know that he went to churchville chili!!! talk about a small world - the same high school as my family graduated from.

That's one brave man, we could use many more like him, both here and abroad.

**44 AMP** · November 7, 2006, 09:03 PM

A fascinating field modification. Just to set the record straight here, the original guns used to make the first stingers came from trashed dive bombers on Guadalcanal. The SBD Dauntless had a single (later twin) Browning .30 cal as a rear gun. Enterprising Marines salvaged the guns from the wrecked dive bombers, because they had triggers (and they weren't doing anybody any good rusting in a smashed ariplane. The trigger was important. Guns from a fighter plane wouldn't work as well, because they were solonoid fired.

I haven't run across any combat reports of Stingers being used on Guadalcanal, but cince that is where the first ones were made up, I'm sure they saw some use. Enough that by Iwo Jima (2 years later) there were a handful in action.

The Pacific war is full of interesting adaptaions, as soldiers, sailors and Marines "made do" to compensate for the official policy of Hitler first.

one of the most brilliant improvisations was the conversion of the B-25 medium bomber to ground attack by installing up to 12 .50 machineguns, and even a 75mm cannon! Done in the field, and only later by the factories.

The Stinger conversion is a perfect example of the Marine attitude.
Call it what you will, "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome" or "If it works, it ain't stupid" either way, it shows great spirit.

SpK · November 7, 2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

It was the best episode yet, so far IMO. Hopefully they'll have a Miami Shootout episode this season

THAT would be awesome.

TNT · November 8, 2006, 07:40 AM

44 Amp we call it American inginuity

TNT · November 8, 2006, 07:50 AM

The stingers also provided another advantage in that the cylclic rate was faster(than its counterpart that was used on the ground) and that allowed more hot lead down range to break up kamakazi charges of the Japanese.

November 4, 2006, 12:13 AM	#1
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	Shootout! Iwo Jima Anyone catch this tonight? I never heard of the "Stinger" before. Was that the first SAW? Basically a M1919 with a selection of Garand (suck as Buttstock) and BAR (bipod, etc.) parts. One Marine scored 20 KIA's with one, alone, early in the battle (and went on to save 8 fellow soldier's lives by carrying them to safety). What an awesome weapon. Like Clyde's "scattergun" BAR's it just shows how relatively minor modifications can create a whole new weapon, and fill a niche when nothing else is available. It was no doubt heavy as hell but unlike the BAR took a belt. I'll try to find a pic of one of these, in case someone didn't see the show, I dunno maybe you machine gun guys this is a well known LMG/SAW, but I had never heard of it before. Were there any SAW like guns back then? I mean that is what the BAR's role was, but something belt fed? I think I recall seeing a more portable MG-42 or other German MG. Anyway great episode and great exposure of a improvised Squad automatic weapon.

November 4, 2006, 10:49 AM	#4
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	I believe there was a pretty large article in a recent issue of American Rifleman about just that gun. I'll look and see if I can find out which one. Like lots of the great innovations in wartime, these were adaptations of, or modifications of original designs. I have heard the stinger's capability and battle-winning characteristics compared to the hedgerow-busting attachments added to Sherman Tanks in Normandy in 1944. Those were made out of 'recycled' German beach obsticles. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all... __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

November 6, 2006, 02:05 PM	#9
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,716	Holy cow, I didn't know that he went to churchville chili!!! talk about a small world - the same high school as my family graduated from. That's one brave man, we could use many more like him, both here and abroad. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

November 7, 2006, 09:03 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	Stinger A fascinating field modification. Just to set the record straight here, the original guns used to make the first stingers came from trashed dive bombers on Guadalcanal. The SBD Dauntless had a single (later twin) Browning .30 cal as a rear gun. Enterprising Marines salvaged the guns from the wrecked dive bombers, because they had triggers (and they weren't doing anybody any good rusting in a smashed ariplane. The trigger was important. Guns from a fighter plane wouldn't work as well, because they were solonoid fired. I haven't run across any combat reports of Stingers being used on Guadalcanal, but cince that is where the first ones were made up, I'm sure they saw some use. Enough that by Iwo Jima (2 years later) there were a handful in action. The Pacific war is full of interesting adaptaions, as soldiers, sailors and Marines "made do" to compensate for the official policy of Hitler first. one of the most brilliant improvisations was the conversion of the B-25 medium bomber to ground attack by installing up to 12 .50 machineguns, and even a 75mm cannon! Done in the field, and only later by the factories. The Stinger conversion is a perfect example of the Marine attitude. Call it what you will, "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome" or "If it works, it ain't stupid" either way, it shows great spirit. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 8, 2006, 07:40 AM	#12
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	44 Amp we call it American inginuity __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

November 4, 2006, 12:16 AM	#2
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	It was the best episode yet, so far IMO. Hopefully they'll have a Miami Shootout episode this season

November 4, 2006, 12:52 AM	#3
Sodbuster Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 1999 Location: Wyo-Tana Posts: 1,298	It was a fighter plane machine gun adapted for shoulder fire use by the Marines on Iwo. That explains the buttstock here and bipod there parts list. I guess it could be a SAW.

November 5, 2006, 02:10 AM	#6
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	I never knew anything about Iwo Jima before. Figured for the length of the battle and the heavy casualties thought it was fought mostly with primarily heavy artillery, bombers, etc. These guys fought with everything from Garands and BARs, and that Stinger not just down to .45's, KaBars and mounted bayonets, many American Air Force servicemen as they slept were butchered by tanto and Wakizashi. I mean this was hardcore CQB that rivaled trench warfare of WWI, where the victor is also covered in blood. I like what the one vet said at the end of the show, when asked how many medals he earned for serving in the battle, "5. My head, 2 arms and 2 legs". I think every soldier on that island deserved official commendation. They are all my heroes, but particularly the Stinger gunner who on his way to grab more belts, threw 8 wounded guys up on his shoulder to safety after taking out dozens of the enemy, 20 permanantly. They said he was like a maverick too, I like that all the more; The soldier who jumped on the grenade to save his CO; and the Sergeant (?) who used his 1911 to snuff a pit full (4) of rifle armed Japanese. That CO is still pissed to this day about the tanks not being there. LOL @ "they're being refueled" The valor in this show was like...if you saw a fictional movie with similar scenes, would seem completely unrealistic. But this is documented fact, and frankly the WWII films I've seen don't come close to doing justice to these men. Pearl Harbor was fresh in their minds like 9/11 is today, thse men fought with a rare display of courage and fearlessness. Really inspiring and humbling. Nothing like "Upham" of Saving Private Ryan. If I was anywhere in public watching the show, would have stood and applauded.

November 5, 2006, 07:23 AM	#7
SmokinTom Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 479	You should see Flags of our Fathers that just came out. It`s about Iwo Jima and a very good movie indeed. It`s also based on a true story. Tom

November 6, 2006, 12:54 PM	#8
GeorgeF Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2004 Posts: 572	We never hear thos kind of heroics going on today because its not PC to glamorize killing. Guys are just as heroic in Iraq right now (not to denigrate the WW2 vets, just trying to show the gung ho spirit is still alive). Take for example Brian Chontosh - here's an excerpt: It was a year ago on the march into Baghdad (2003). Brian Chontosh was a platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a humvee. When all hell broke loose. Ambush city. The young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him. So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire. It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish. And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them. Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride. And he ran down the trench. With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers. And he killed them all. He fought with the M16 until he was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion. When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon's flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more. The link to the USMC site with the account: http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn20...f/200456162723 And he got the Navy Cross - THATS the kind of thing we need to be hearing, yet instead we hear countless stories of how beleaguered soldiers murder a civilian and plant evidence on him to show he was a combatant. Which really serves our efforts?

November 8, 2006, 07:50 AM	#13
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	The stingers also provided another advantage in that the cylclic rate was faster(than its counterpart that was used on the ground) and that allowed more hot lead down range to break up kamakazi charges of the Japanese. __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."