Potential problem with Cheaper Than Dirt in Fort Worth

[Wynterbourne]

I've done business with Cheaper Than Dirt in Fort Worth, TX for a number of years. I've always been happy with their prices, their service, and their selection. I've spent, quite literally, thousands of dollars on camping equipment, ammunition, holsters, knives, magazines, and tools. I've brought several people to purchase rifles, shotguns, and handguns from them over the years. I've always been absolutely delighted doing business with them.

Well, this past Friday I purchased a Beretta PX4-F from them. It was a good price, $479.99 plus tax, and I recieved the usual rapid service. The package came with all of the usual accessories, including a total of 2 magazines. It did not include the backstraps.

Today, on the Beretta forum, another individual who'd purchased his PX4 from Cheaper Than Dirt stated that he felt that he'd been cheated out of a magazine. He stated that he'd been informed that the package came with 3 magazines, instead of the two that we recieved. He further stated that he had spoken with the counter help at Cheaper Than Dirt and had been advised that they had Beretta PX4 magazines available for right around $30.00. He'd gone ahead and purchased it.

I discussed it with him a bit, because I'd heard that it shipped with 2 magazines. I'd heard of a number of places, such as Bachman Pawn in Dallas, Jim's in the Port Aransas area, and at least one other place (in Minnesota) selling them with 2 magazines. I honestly couldn't believe it.

It kept nagging me though, so I called Cheaper Than Dirt to ask if they had any PX4 magazines available. I was told that they had -1- magazine, and it was right around $30.00. I asked them to put it off to the side for me, and went up there after work.

Sure enough they had 1 PX4 magazine. It was in a CTD 'Miscellaneous Product' bag. It cost a little under $30.00. I went ahead and purchased it and asked one of the guys behind the counter, "There's a rumor that ya'll have been taking these from the boxes." The response, "I don't really know about that, I just sell them."

So I get it out to my car and take a look at it. It's a Beretta factory magazine. The markings, the baseplate, the coloration are ALL identical to my factory magazines. A Beretta factory magazine that was NOT in Beretta packaging.

A little later this evening I chatted with an individual on one of my gaming sites who has claimed, in the past, to work for Beretta USA. He tells me that all PX4's shipped at this point have 3 magazines. He further tells me that I can check this by looking at the label on the box that came with the pistol. I didn't ask him about the backstraps.

Sure enough, I pull out the box, and the label says 'Px4 STORM TYPE F 9mm/17RD (3mags). Unfortunately the 3 has been overwritten, by hand, with the number 2.

I've got to admit, I'm a tad hurt by this. I've shopped with them, and sung their praises, for 5+ years now. I've never had a problem with them, but I've also never purchased a firearm from them. I have to admit, I thought it was odd that they didn't hand me the box with my weapon until AFTER I'd paid for it, and been given my receipt along with a notice that all firearms sales are final.

But I NEVER thought that they'd open the box before purchase, remove a magazine, reseal the box, and resell the magazines. I feel like I've been stolen from.

I'm going to call BUSA tomorrow to get one final source of verification on the number of magazines shipped, and to see if it should have come with the backstraps. Hopefully I'm wrong. I doubt it, but I hope so.

[JohnKSa]

Based on the evidence, it sounds like you're right.

Since they remarked the box, they didn't really do anything illegal, but it is definitely underhanded.

"Cheated out of a mag" isn't really accurate since the producte was accurately marked and represented, but that's sure how I'd feel in his shoes (or yours).

Of course, if they didn't show you the box until after you'd made the purchase, it would have been reasonable for you to expect that the box contained everything the factory put in it. Unfortunately, once you looked in it, accepted it and left the store, I'm thinking you pretty much lost your recourse unless they just decide to be nice to you and refund your $30.

[Eghad]

it was marked with 2....by marking out the 3 and replacing it with a 2

about the only way to come out on top would be any kind of agreement Berreta might have with CTD about the sales of thier pistols....

otherwise you only recourse may be to e-mail the corporate office and tell them how you feel. Remember this.....there are no free lunches.

[Wynterbourne]

Of course, if they didn't show you the box until after you'd made the purchase, it would have been reasonable for you to expect that the box contained everything the factory put in it. Unfortunately, once you looked in it, accepted it and left the store, I'm thinking you pretty much lost your recourse unless they just decide to be nice to you and refund your $30.

That's what I'm thinking too.

I mean, if I'd been given the opportunity to inspect the weapon before I had paid for it, I'd give it a big old "shame on me". I should have looked, and it was my fault that I didn't.

In this instance though, I handled the one at the display rack. They grabbed the box from the safe and placed it on a shelf behind the check out counter. I was not allowed to inspect the weapon, or the box, until my receipt had been handed to me. Stapled to that receipt was a notification that all firearms sales are final.

Like I said, I don't think there's any recourse, but I sure don't think it's right.

[Wynterbourne]

otherwise you only recourse may be to e-mail the corporate office and tell them how you feel. Remember this.....there are no free lunches.

Never been interested in a free lunch, except for when they served crab legs at the office Christmas Party.

I was just suprised that they would do that, you know? I'll just have to keep this in mind when I do my shopping. Yes I've only given them a couple of thousand dollars over the past few years. It's a drop in the bucket, really, with the amount of business they do.

But this is Texas. There are too many places in the immediate area where I can get the identical products at about the same prices, if they decide they don't want my business.

[jeff_troop]

beretta may have a problem with a dealer breaking apart their retail packages and selling the parts individually.

just hearing about this is enough for me not to use them again. they don't sell anything special anyway. i'll go elsewhere.

[Pointer]

Is that why "they" call them gun-stealers?

Unfortunately, many gun dealers operate like pawn shops and treat their customers like pawn shop clientele.

One of the most popular gun shops in our area started out as a Pawn Shop.

Buyer beware!!

[Eghad]

Why I said to call or write Beretta.. They might have a problem with this.
Or at the least write a letter to the corporate offices and let em know how you feel...

dont let it slide..........

[Eghad]

[email protected]

[OBIWAN]

It happens a lot...while I have never been real impressed with CTD it is not like you were cheated

If you thought it was a "good price" for the pistol and 2 mags, then it doesn't really matter what the mfg originally ships with it.

You act like they promised you 3 mags and you got two

Bottom line is that once the dealer aquired the weapon it was his to do with as he pleases.

He could have decided to use it as a range gun and then sell it used

Instead, he decided to package it as the pistol w/ 2 mags and a separate, loose mag.

They might have put some cool aftermarket grips on and then sold the grips as replacements.....they can package a weapon any way they want

If you could buy it with all three mags for less somewhere else you could then decide, for yourself, which deal to take.

[Double Naught Spy]

I am sort of surprised that with everyone's access to the internet, you guys buying things like the PX4 from CTD don't already know in advance that the gun is supposed to come with X number of mags. Just how well have you checked into the product before purchasing?

Wynterbourne, while you may feel like you were stolen from, you were not. As noted, CTD did not misrepresent the product in any way. You did not receive what Beretta intended to come with a PX4, but based on the price, it does not sound like you paid for it either. In searching the auctions, the cheapest I could find was $518 and it came with 3 mags. By buying your 3rd mag, you effectively paid $510, $8 cheaper.

What I don't understand is that if you were happy with the deal before you knew the gun was to come with 3 mags instead of 2, then why does this upset you?

Wilson Combat sends out a goody package after a customer mails in a survey. It includes things like a chamber tool, muffs, lube, cleaning rag, etc. They used to include them with the guns, but then found out some dealers were selling the guns without the goodies and then selling the goodies separately.

[Wynterbourne]

I learned a long time ago to seek clarification before I try to take any real action, and I'm so glad I did.

Per Brenda B. (last name withheld per request) at Beretta USA as of 11:04 a.m. CDT this morning, after a 27 minute hold...

"The original idea behind the PX4 was for law enforcement. As such, it was packed with 3 magazines. Now that we have reoriented them for civilian sales, the retailer is REQUIRED to remove one of the magazines. Some retailers may choose to give those, seperate from the package, as a gift. Some may choose to sell it outright. If they choose to give it to you with the sale of the weapon, they have to notify you that it is not a part of the standard package, and it must be provided to you in seperate packaging."

She also advised me that the extra backstraps are NOT included with the weapon itself at this time. Apparently these are simply relabeled LE models and they do not come with the backstraps. The backstraps are being packaged and should be available in 2 weeks.

[Gunrnr]

Well, looks like the mag they kept could cost them a hellofalot more than the money they resell it for. I firmly believe that what goes around, comes around. CTD has been ripping folks off for years with their ridiculous shipping "and handling" fees, but in that, customers have a choice.

When they start shorting customers out of items that are (or were intended to be) included with another item, that's just wrong -- cheap, underhanded, and wrong.

So whatever paltry profit they make on reselling your mag will be offset by the folks who read this and think twice about doing business with Cheeeper than Dirt and even more by the folks who ask advice of folks who read this who "heard something about CTD ripping their customers off". That is the rule of 7/70 in action -- except it's exaggerated manyfold in the world of internet business.

The Gunrunner

[Eghad]

okay guys I wrote Cheaper Than Dirt........here is the reply I got


From: Dewayne Irwin
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:54 PM
To: Cody Henslee
Subject: Beretta


Dear Mr. Eghad,

The package you mention that has 3 magazines in it is a "LE" (law enforcement) pkg. We bought several of these packages from a distributor, and they indeed came from Beretta with 3 magazines, however when we received them they only had two magazines. We priced them at a reduced price to offset the missing mag.
When you ask is this a common practice here, the answer would be "YES" if we find a deal on a certain gun or guns then yes we buy them as they are and pass along the savings to the customer.
The part where you make the assumption that we may have pulled the third magazine and repackage the magazine to resale is false.
I suspect you are one person from a group of people that have called complaining about the pricing or making the assumption that this is an illegal practice or somethging to that effect. If I am wrong in that thought process then I apologize. If not I am at a loss as to why you think this is a bad thing to b uy a product from a distributor for a good price and then pass the savings along. We had the firearms in question priced below what the normally are, we in fact are sold out of them.

I notice by your email address that you are in the Army. I'd like to personally thank you for all that you and all the other servicemen do for our country.

Regards,

DeWayne Irwin
President
Cheaper Than Dirt Outdoor Adventures
817-378-5108
"Shoot em good"

[JohnKSa]

So we're back to the question of why CTD had a new factory magazine that was NOT in factory packaging for a pistol that has been on the market for only days...

And we have a new question of why CTD's answer (we got it with only 2 mags) doesn't jibe with what the Beretta CSR said. Accorder to the CSR, the package should have contained 3 magazines when it arrived at the retailer (CTD in this case) and the retailer would determine how to "dispose" of the extra mag.

Still pretty fishy, IMO.

[Eghad]

Cheaper than Dirt bought said thay purchased them from a distributor in the letter not Berreta. If I am reading his letter right he is claiming that the distibutor shipped them to him with 2 magazines.... His letter states that the package was shipped from Beretta with 3 mags to the distributor.

Now this may be mere speculation on my part....but I would be willing to bet maybe the salesman from the distributor called him with a hot deal on the New Berretas...and in the course of the conversation may have asked if he would like to purchase some extra magazines at a good price too........and were shipped by the distributor in oem packaging....

Now if we have a CDT employee who said that he had removed or personally witnessed them removed....

I have no dog in this hunt........I just asked the question. with the information at hand I would at this point have insufficient information to make a judgment either way.

[JohnKSa]

Cheaper than Dirt bought said thay purchased them from a distributor in the letter not Berreta.

That's SOP for virtually all retailers. That's why the Beretta CSR's comments were about the retailer, not a distributor/wholesaler.

According to Beretta, the magazine SHOULD have been removed, and the retailer (CTD) is who SHOULD have removed the magazine. The distributor/wholesaler may be breaking open the packages and parting them out, but that seems unlikely. There's no problem with the distributor shipping boxes with all three mags according the the Beretta CSR--the problem is when the boxes get to the end user and that happens at the retailer.

If I were retailing PX4s, I'd ask Beretta to fax me their PX4 magazine policy on letterhead and then show it to all my potential PX4 customers. IMO, the way this was handled was practically designed to cause mistrust and suspicion.

I've re-read the CTD statement, and it still seems like it's weasel-worded when he talks about the boxes and the magazines. He very carefully avoids any mention of where he might have gotten the extra magazine and fails to explain why it wasn't OEM packaged. That's sort of a big part of the equation since this pistol has literally only been available for days. Sort of interesting that at about the same time we have magazines missing from boxes, we have UNPACKAGED new factory magazines being offered for sale. Also kind of interesting that we have two pistol sales, two missing magazines, and two unpackaged magazines for sale.

And why not offer the PX4 buyer the option to buy the third magazine AT THE TIME OF HIS PURCHASE rather than simply mark the pistol down and then sell the mag later. Wouldn't it be very logical to assume that a person purchasing a brand new pistol might want to buy the ONLY accessories they had in the store for that pistol? They clearly had an extra magazine on hand and just as clearly there's a spot in the box for it. The only reason I can see for not offering it at the time of sale is to prevent just the sort of questions that are now coming up. Which makes me think that things are not quite as clear cut as Mr. Irwin would have us believe.

[Eghad]

like I said there is no smoking gun either way........

either the distributor did it or CTD did it....

the only way we know is to look at the invoices and I dont think that is going to happen.

you said it was unlikely that the distributor did it... not impossible. Could have been a salesman at the distributor that did it????

so who knows......

If Johnny Carson were alive we could send a the question to Karnak in a mayonnaise jar and would have a similiar probability of determining the guilty party.

[chrisandclauida2]

this is piss poor running os a busness and screwing the customers. all storm le only models come with 3 mags from the factory.they [beretta]have recently started sending out the non le models and allowed the selling of le models. the price you paid is avarage for the le models. the non le models are said to be running about 50 dollars more.one web site even listed the suggested retail at 650 dollars.i paid 459.00 for my le only model 2 days ago. it came with the 3 mags but not the back straps. it is supposed to come with the backstraps also.i am presently checking into this. i doubt very seriously any distributor took anything out of anything. it is importiant for distributors to maintain good standing with the manufacturer.tell cheaper than dirt that other people are buying the same gun at the same price with the 3 mags and at low volumes. of one or two.hell these guns are in extreemly short supple. so much most distributers have them back orders. there are trickels now and then but that is it. this is why the le only models are available.read berettas web site it has all this info.

[Mike Irwin]

How's it screwing the customers, really?

MSRP on the Storm is well over $600 from Beretta, yet the price from CTD is well under that.

It doesn't appear that it was advertised as having 3 magazines on the CTD website.

As long as I know EXACTLY what I'm buying, I'll make the choice yes or no based on that, not on what the manufacturer originally includes.

[chrisandclauida2]

so it would be ok to buy a new car that came from the manufacturer with a turbo and advertised with such but the dealer took it off and charged less but only crossed off turbo on the sticker. it shows poor integrity to change things so they dont reach the end user like the maker intended. regardless of what they charge y ou. this guy paid the same price for a model f le model that everyone else is.it isnt because ctd is passing on savings it is because beretta is intentionally charging less on the le models to give police a break. civillian models will be 60 or more dollars more.the suggested retail price is a mute point. the fact it all dealers pay the same price give or take no more than 10 or so dollars per peice. beretta charges the same price to everyone. ctd took a mag that should have been there and still charged him their full price[cost plus around 10%] .from what i understand i got mine by way of my local dealer from the same distributer as ctd.my dealer onlt bought 1 and marked up the traditional 10 % so it dosent matter if the dealer bought or 100 this guy got screwed. the point is for every one to know ctd did this cause it traditionally guns come with 2 mags and they thought they xcould get a little extra cash. buyer beware

[Mike Irwin]

Chris,

If you GET what was advertised from point of sale, not what the manufacturer originally offere, then there's no problem as far as I'm concerned.

There's an old saying that goes back to Roman times.

Caveat Emptor.

It's as true now as it was then.

Don't like what you see? Don't buy it.

[chrisandclauida2]

i agree if you get what was offerd then your not legally getting cheated. but there is something to be said for their lack if integritry.the manufacturer ment for all le models to get to the end user a certon way. the fact is ctd cheated this customer out of it.they didnt legally do anything wrong but as far as i am concerned they showed their true nature.jmho

[Mike Irwin]

Cheaper than Dirt did NOT cheat anyone out of anything.

They advertised it truthfully.

They marked the box accordingly.

They offered it at more than a fair price.

Given your statement that "CTD did nothing legally wrong..." then you know, and realize, for a fact that they cheated no one out of anything.

What the manufacturer "intended" is immaterial. CTD purchased the firearm from a wholesaler, who purchased it from the manufacturer.

After all, the manufacturer also "intended" the gun to be sold at an MSRP of over $600. Are you saying that since Beretta "intended" the gun to be sold for $600+, and CTD sold it for $470something, that the seller was also cheated out of that, as well?

Given the net savings enjoyed by the customer, he can purchase what, an additional 4 magazines?

[fastlane]

CTD did right by me last year. I purchsed 10 boxes of 00 buckshot for $3.79 per box. The add on there website said each box contained 25 rounds. The boxes I received contained 10 rounds per box. I received 100 rounds instead of 250 rounds. After several phone calls CTD shipped me 15 more boxes 10 rounds per box. They did not even charge me shipping on the 15 boxes of ammo. I still buy from them and never had another problem.