The Smallbore Defensive Shotgun - Page 3

SHR970 · November 11, 2012, 10:56 PM

Klaw; why so defensive? I was agreeing with your point and provided additional information concerning a 12 gauge that further emphasizes your point. How does that translate into trying to further promote that one is superior to the other?

If I wanted to get into the more is always better argument I would recommend the 18 pellet 00 Buck 3 1/2" shells. Conversely if I wanted to get into the less is always better argument I would suggest a Judge firing 2 1/2" shells of #7 1/2. Both would be examples of cognitive dissonance on my part as both can be effective but neither choice is a good all around choice.

Quote:

Ask yourself which load is most likely to do the job if delivered with the same degree of accuracy; the 12, 20, or the .410.

Statistically there will always be those outliers that are the stuff of anecdotes and articles. At household distances a hit in the boiler room with any of the three will do the job.......statistically speaking.

340 Weatherby · November 12, 2012, 01:38 AM

Speaking from experience, one 7 1/2 shotgun pellet from fifty yards away hitting me in the back of the leg, through Levi's, REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION!
This was on a quail hunt years ago down in Baja. I've also killed a coyote with one shot, with an ounce and a quarter of sixes at forty yards. all of this makes me respect any shotgun with any load. I think an ounce of #9's inside a house would stop anyone. And if it didn't the second shot at half the distance would for sure. #4 buck? I reserve that strictly for sea-going mammals that steal fish.

Pfletch83 · November 12, 2012, 06:16 AM

Well if you trust birdshot,then by all means go for it,but I'll stick with #4 buck.

SoilworK777 · November 12, 2012, 07:13 AM

???

three-fifty-seven · November 12, 2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

The fact is that law enforcement's overwhelming choice of shotguns is the 12 gauge.

I am not taking the .410's side, but law enforcement's choice to use the 12 gauge is not a decision that is based on what is the best tool to use but what is simply available to the agency.

Pfletch83 · November 12, 2012, 08:14 PM

anger some but I have been thinking about the 28 gauge defensive shotgun for awhile.

My thoughts are that the 28 gauge would be just as good a defender with the ammo to fit the job.

The only thing that would make it better is if the 28 gauge was offered in a 3-inch chamber so the pellet count can be bumped up.

scottd913 · November 12, 2012, 10:26 PM

Note to the op you seem awfully confrontational with people who make a point or may i say counter point to your opinion on this issue. Yes i do agree with klawman as he is very well respected here and quite knowledgeable.
the 12 GA. round is far superior and you can try to sell your opinion all you wish. If all i had was a .410 that is all i would use and i would wish for a 12 GA. I'm sure. I'm not a ballistic expert but what i do know is that when i was a child my grandfather handed me a .410 and said when i grow up i could use a 12 GA.
^^^^^^^^^^NOTE TO THE STAFF^^^^^^^^^^
i am surprised that the staff allowed this thread to continue as a argument.
The more i read the more i was disgusted by the argumentativeness.
This is why i don't frequent some of the other forums.

TheKlawMan · November 13, 2012, 02:17 AM

Pshaw. You got me blushing, Scott.

mavracer · November 13, 2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

I remember hearing about an officer involved shooting that happened at around 15 feet inside a parking garage,the officer was using a department issued 12 gauge with 9-pellet '00 buck.

The officer unloaded every round he had in the shotgun,before going to his handgun,the whole time shots were being fired the BG was advancing on the officer,the perp then gave up when the officer drew his handgun.

All pellets hit their mark in the perp's upper body.

After all was said and done the officer admitted that he should have went for a head shot,the perp died on the way to the hospital.

So please oh wise one tell me again how the 12 is so much better than any other gauge.

Please oh wise one you think he'd have been better off with a 410 and 1/2 the # of pellets. BTW this also answers JM's question.

Quote:

Once again I ask, how is 800 to 900 ft lbs of 5 000 buckshot pellets not going to smoke an intruder.

The only way a 410 is going to be any more effective is if you can actually shoot it faster. Something I figured out years ago in bowling pin shoots speed shooting shotguns is a big mans sport. you just can't cheat physics much.

scottd913 · November 13, 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

law enforcement's choice to use the 12 gauge is not a decision that is based on what is the best tool to use but what is simply available to the agency.

not sure where you live but i live in Dallas Texas where the Dallas police annual budget is a whopping 233 million dollars ( i just looked it up ) and there officer's provide there own shotguns according to several friends of mine who own and work in local gun shops around the area and they ALL BUY 12 GA. SHOTGUNS ...now again I'm no ballistic expert and i certainly do not have to defend myself or have a need to protect your lives on a daily basis but .............i think that if i were to purchase a weapon to protect myself i would use the advice of those who do that very thing!!!

I'm still scratching my head as to why this "discussion" is still up?

Strafer Gott · November 13, 2012, 03:13 PM

A little bit of powder, and lots of lead, kills the game dead, dead, dead.
True then, true now. Don't underestimate shotguns. Even the little ones. It's a suckers bet, you probably won't live to regret. Germans wanted to ban them in WWI. Too nasty.

tgreening · November 13, 2012, 05:56 PM

I can say this much...When I was a kid my single shot .410 put a boatload of rabbit on the table, as well as quail and pheasant. My brother did equally well with his 3-shot pumper. My dads 12 gauge wingmaster got the job done obviously but in the end dead was dead, and based on my recollections of digging pellets out of carcasses, it never seemed to take more than a few.

Dads rabbits were never any "deader" than ours.

I think any advantage he may have had with getting pellets on target due to having more in the air was probably offset by the greater difficulty in controlling the bigger, heavier, harder kicking 12 gauge.

I dont know that I see any real difference in shot placement requirements between the 2 when in an HD situation. On average I don't see the ranges involved allowing for much spread. If you hit it with the 12 odds are you'd hit it with the .410 as well.

It's kind of funny that you see the same argument in the handgun forums. "Which would you rather get shot with, a .22 or a 10mm?" The answer for me is neither! Odds are a hit with either will have me on the floor squealing like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert.

Lots or people are completely happy to use a 9mm or .380 as a HD weapon. Which would you rather get shot with, one of those or a .410 load?

Pfletch83 · November 18, 2012, 02:35 PM

Exactly what I was getting at Tgreening.

As long as the shooter is up to snuff it really doesn't matter what caliber or gauge is used.

TheKlawMan · November 18, 2012, 09:13 PM

Using you argument that as long as the shooter is "up to snuff" the gauge doesn't matter, let me ask you why so many advocate extended magazine capacities for HD abd why some also wear a side saddle? Why not just rely on the good old single shot if one is conficent they will shoot with perfect precision under exigent circumstances? It is because the best shooter can be off the mark.

Next question. What poses the greater risk of collateral damage from , assuming the same velocity; 5 pieces of OOO from a .410 or double their equvalent weight in #4 Buck out of a 12 gauge?

Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

it is well and good to train to be dead on accurate and to strive to put every piece of shot on target, but chit happens under extreme pressure. Plan for it. Ig a .410 is best for you, go for it. All I am saying is that it generally is not the best HD shotgun for the average person.

Pfletch83 · November 19, 2012, 01:11 AM

Okay.

Using your "Average" shooter comment.

What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?

Pfletch83 · November 19, 2012, 04:09 PM

Give this a try when you get the chance...

Take a paper plate and trace an old CD for a target (trace the center out as well because that will be your aiming point)

and make sure that you set it up to where the wind will catch it.

Load up some buckshot that your gun patterns well ('00' or '000') and set yourself at 10 or 15 yards. (say two rounds through a cylinder choke)

Try to get as close to the center with a breeze blowing as you can.

*Think of it as a friendly target exercise, trust me it's one hell of a challenge*

SHR970 · November 19, 2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

Neither

8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth. The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results.

amd6547 · November 19, 2012, 07:33 PM

It's really not a question of the 410 being "superior". Actually, it is more a question of the 410 being suitable for SD...and it certainly is.
For a while, I experimented with a Saiga 410. It was a fantastic gun. I felt quite well armed with it loaded with a five round mag of buck.
The only reason I sold it was the combined length of the Kalashnikov action and barrel, and the plastic stock...made for a weapon that was a little too long.
But, when I look at the new 410 loads available today, like the PDX, I wish I still had that Saiga to try them in.

idek · November 20, 2012, 03:01 AM

Quote:

What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?

I don't understand the notion that keeps popping up about missing with a 12 gauge or "a hit with x is better than a miss with y"

What logic indicates that a person is somehow more likely to miss with a 12 gauge than any other gun?

TheKlawMan · November 20, 2012, 03:35 AM

I give up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Most of you still don't get the point. As for those that tried to answer the 8" off center question, the key that was missed is which is most likely. It would have been a better question if I had asked about a hit 6" off of center, but the same result. (Yes, if the BG is a bad guy the 8" off center at that distance could be a complete miss, Pfletch, but it is more likely to get more hits than the .410 and is therefore more likely to stop the threat although those hits are not very likely to hit center mass vitals.)

Pfletch83 · November 20, 2012, 05:59 AM

The thing I was trying to get at is that at home defense ranges the shot column is less likely to open up (and this is for all gauges using buckshot through a smooth bore barrel)

and that the shooter must really be on their game to connect with the target let alone the vital areas of said target.

A point that Klawman either didn't get or doesn't want to admit to.

But the pattern will open up if said pellets are shot through a rifled barrel (but will be useless for longer than HD engagements unless the buckshot is swapped out for slugs)

Pfletch83 · November 20, 2012, 06:57 AM

Now the .410 with '00'/'000' buck from a full choke .410 barrel will spread out more than the same load through a cylinder choke barrel (my reason for buying the spare 18.5 inch barrel for the Mossberg 50104).

The results shooting '000' buck through the factory 24-inch full choke barrel caused inconsistent patterns at 5-6 yards,I would use the same aiming point but would get a pattern going high or low.

Now that isn't to say that all buckshot will do the same,for example #4 buck due to it's smaller pellet size will have a tighter pattern that is more consistent with what one would expect to see with birdshot through a full choke (and because most .410's are sent from the factory wearing a full choked tube #4 buck would be the best round to use in them for a larger than normal pest removal situation)

The reason for the inconsistent patterns with larger shot size I think is due to the already restrictive nature of the .410 shotshell.

The full choke forces the shotcup and pellets to squeeze through thus causing pre-mature opening of the shot cup,which leads to inconsistent wide patterns.

You can see this in brass fetcher's youtube vid of the Winchester 5 pellet .410 load (as he did state that the barrel was a full choke at a distance of 10 feet)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ

Here is my vid showing the federal '000' pattern through a full choke at 15-20 feet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYaxYviKTmQ

Here are the results when fired at the same distance as shown in the above vid,only using the 18.5 inch cylinder choke barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVB-c0KXPrM&feature=plcp

TheKlawMan · November 21, 2012, 03:43 AM

Pfletch, I know you are a smart guy and probably know a heck of lot more than me about hd or tactical shotguns, but you are way out of line with your suggestion that I don't get anything or don't want to admit it.

If you simply read the question, I ask which is

Quote:

more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

I wrote out a lengthy explanation of the odds of placing pellet in specific areas of the person, but decided not to post it. You probably could follow it with ease, but I would end up having to explain every little nuance to many mall ninjas (a category in which I do not include you and a few of the others ).
So I simplified greatly.

At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.

With the pattern of each centered 8" to the left of center, I believe you are likely to get 29 hits with #4 and 12 misses. With the 5 pieces of 000 in the .410, you may only get 3 or 4 hits.

Notice my question asked about to the right or left of center. If you off to one side, you are likely to place much of the pattern over the heart and may put some pellets into the left ventricle and the apex, which likelihood increases if you have more pellets. The heart doesn't lay that deep and there is little or no need to penetrate more than a few inches. The other side is a different matter. Still, with 8 times as many bits of shot, the #4 is more likely to place more lead nearer to center mass.

Regardless, the focus of the question was which is most likely and not if either was likely to stop a BG. I submit the 12 loaded with #4 is the most likely.

I also asked about risks of collateral damage. No one addressed the issue since they know it is much greater from 000 that #4 due to the fact that the 000 given the same velocity much more likely to penetrate walls and even the BG and hit innocents.

TheKlawMan · November 21, 2012, 04:01 AM

Pfletch, Your videos and post only support my postion that the .410 may be the right HD shotgun for some people, but the 12 is superior. The OP praises the use of 000 buck in the .410 and you amply demonstrated the problem with flyers.

Pfletch83 · November 21, 2012, 08:48 AM

That's why I have said that the '000' stuff is best for outside the home use and that #4 buck is better for inside the home use.

Which vid are you talking about?

The pepsi box used for a target?

or the second vid where I was using the 50455 in it's foctory config?

Also you didn't seem to be paying attention to what SHR970 had to say on the matter.

November 12, 2012, 07:13 AM	#54
SoilworK777 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 247	sea-going mammals that steal fish ???

November 12, 2012, 08:14 PM	#56
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	I'm sure this could... anger some but I have been thinking about the 28 gauge defensive shotgun for awhile. My thoughts are that the 28 gauge would be just as good a defender with the ammo to fit the job. The only thing that would make it better is if the 28 gauge was offered in a 3-inch chamber so the pellet count can be bumped up.

November 19, 2012, 04:09 PM	#66
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	Hey Klawman.... Give this a try when you get the chance... Take a paper plate and trace an old CD for a target (trace the center out as well because that will be your aiming point) and make sure that you set it up to where the wind will catch it. Load up some buckshot that your gun patterns well ('00' or '000') and set yourself at 10 or 15 yards. (say two rounds through a cylinder choke) Try to get as close to the center with a breeze blowing as you can. Think of it as a friendly target exercise, trust me it's one hell of a challenge

November 19, 2012, 07:33 PM	#68
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	It's really not a question of the 410 being "superior". Actually, it is more a question of the 410 being suitable for SD...and it certainly is. For a while, I experimented with a Saiga 410. It was a fantastic gun. I felt quite well armed with it loaded with a five round mag of buck. The only reason I sold it was the combined length of the Kalashnikov action and barrel, and the plastic stock...made for a weapon that was a little too long. But, when I look at the new 410 loads available today, like the PDX, I wish I still had that Saiga to try them in. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

November 20, 2012, 03:35 AM	#70
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	I give up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Most of you still don't get the point. As for those that tried to answer the 8" off center question, the key that was missed is which is most likely. It would have been a better question if I had asked about a hit 6" off of center, but the same result. (Yes, if the BG is a bad guy the 8" off center at that distance could be a complete miss, Pfletch, but it is more likely to get more hits than the .410 and is therefore more likely to stop the threat although those hits are not very likely to hit center mass vitals.) Last edited by TheKlawMan; November 20, 2012 at 03:52 AM.

November 12, 2012, 01:38 AM	#52
340 Weatherby Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 139	Speaking from experience, one 7 1/2 shotgun pellet from fifty yards away hitting me in the back of the leg, through Levi's, REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION! This was on a quail hunt years ago down in Baja. I've also killed a coyote with one shot, with an ounce and a quarter of sixes at forty yards. all of this makes me respect any shotgun with any load. I think an ounce of #9's inside a house would stop anyone. And if it didn't the second shot at half the distance would for sure. #4 buck? I reserve that strictly for sea-going mammals that steal fish.

November 12, 2012, 06:16 AM	#53
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	Well if you trust birdshot,then by all means go for it,but I'll stick with #4 buck.

November 12, 2012, 10:26 PM	#57
scottd913 Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2012 Location: Texas ... north of houston, east of el paso Posts: 214	Note to the op you seem awfully confrontational with people who make a point or may i say counter point to your opinion on this issue. Yes i do agree with klawman as he is very well respected here and quite knowledgeable. the 12 GA. round is far superior and you can try to sell your opinion all you wish. If all i had was a .410 that is all i would use and i would wish for a 12 GA. I'm sure. I'm not a ballistic expert but what i do know is that when i was a child my grandfather handed me a .410 and said when i grow up i could use a 12 GA. ^^^^^^^^^^NOTE TO THE STAFF^^^^^^^^^^ i am surprised that the staff allowed this thread to continue as a argument. The more i read the more i was disgusted by the argumentativeness. This is why i don't frequent some of the other forums.

November 13, 2012, 02:17 AM	#58
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Pshaw. You got me blushing, Scott.

November 13, 2012, 03:13 PM	#61
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	A little bit of powder, and lots of lead, kills the game dead, dead, dead. True then, true now. Don't underestimate shotguns. Even the little ones. It's a suckers bet, you probably won't live to regret. Germans wanted to ban them in WWI. Too nasty.

November 13, 2012, 05:56 PM	#62
tgreening Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2011 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 251	I can say this much...When I was a kid my single shot .410 put a boatload of rabbit on the table, as well as quail and pheasant. My brother did equally well with his 3-shot pumper. My dads 12 gauge wingmaster got the job done obviously but in the end dead was dead, and based on my recollections of digging pellets out of carcasses, it never seemed to take more than a few. Dads rabbits were never any "deader" than ours. I think any advantage he may have had with getting pellets on target due to having more in the air was probably offset by the greater difficulty in controlling the bigger, heavier, harder kicking 12 gauge. I dont know that I see any real difference in shot placement requirements between the 2 when in an HD situation. On average I don't see the ranges involved allowing for much spread. If you hit it with the 12 odds are you'd hit it with the .410 as well. It's kind of funny that you see the same argument in the handgun forums. "Which would you rather get shot with, a .22 or a 10mm?" The answer for me is neither! Odds are a hit with either will have me on the floor squealing like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert. Lots or people are completely happy to use a 9mm or .380 as a HD weapon. Which would you rather get shot with, one of those or a .410 load?

November 18, 2012, 02:35 PM	#63
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	Exactly what I was getting at Tgreening. As long as the shooter is up to snuff it really doesn't matter what caliber or gauge is used.

November 18, 2012, 09:13 PM	#64
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Using you argument that as long as the shooter is "up to snuff" the gauge doesn't matter, let me ask you why so many advocate extended magazine capacities for HD abd why some also wear a side saddle? Why not just rely on the good old single shot if one is conficent they will shoot with perfect precision under exigent circumstances? It is because the best shooter can be off the mark. Next question. What poses the greater risk of collateral damage from , assuming the same velocity; 5 pieces of OOO from a .410 or double their equvalent weight in #4 Buck out of a 12 gauge? Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards? it is well and good to train to be dead on accurate and to strive to put every piece of shot on target, but chit happens under extreme pressure. Plan for it. Ig a .410 is best for you, go for it. All I am saying is that it generally is not the best HD shotgun for the average person.

November 19, 2012, 01:11 AM	#65
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	Okay. Using your "Average" shooter comment. What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?

November 20, 2012, 05:59 AM	#71
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	@Idek The thing I was trying to get at is that at home defense ranges the shot column is less likely to open up (and this is for all gauges using buckshot through a smooth bore barrel) and that the shooter must really be on their game to connect with the target let alone the vital areas of said target. A point that Klawman either didn't get or doesn't want to admit to. But the pattern will open up if said pellets are shot through a rifled barrel (but will be useless for longer than HD engagements unless the buckshot is swapped out for slugs)

November 20, 2012, 06:57 AM	#72
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	Now the .410 with '00'/'000' buck from a full choke .410 barrel will spread out more than the same load through a cylinder choke barrel (my reason for buying the spare 18.5 inch barrel for the Mossberg 50104). The results shooting '000' buck through the factory 24-inch full choke barrel caused inconsistent patterns at 5-6 yards,I would use the same aiming point but would get a pattern going high or low. Now that isn't to say that all buckshot will do the same,for example #4 buck due to it's smaller pellet size will have a tighter pattern that is more consistent with what one would expect to see with birdshot through a full choke (and because most .410's are sent from the factory wearing a full choked tube #4 buck would be the best round to use in them for a larger than normal pest removal situation) The reason for the inconsistent patterns with larger shot size I think is due to the already restrictive nature of the .410 shotshell. The full choke forces the shotcup and pellets to squeeze through thus causing pre-mature opening of the shot cup,which leads to inconsistent wide patterns. You can see this in brass fetcher's youtube vid of the Winchester 5 pellet .410 load (as he did state that the barrel was a full choke at a distance of 10 feet) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ Here is my vid showing the federal '000' pattern through a full choke at 15-20 feet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYaxYviKTmQ Here are the results when fired at the same distance as shown in the above vid,only using the 18.5 inch cylinder choke barrel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVB-c0KXPrM&feature=plcp Last edited by Pfletch83; November 20, 2012 at 07:05 AM.

November 21, 2012, 04:01 AM	#74
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Pfletch, Your videos and post only support my postion that the .410 may be the right HD shotgun for some people, but the 12 is superior. The OP praises the use of 000 buck in the .410 and you amply demonstrated the problem with flyers.

November 21, 2012, 08:48 AM	#75
Pfletch83 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2012 Posts: 147	@Klawman That's why I have said that the '000' stuff is best for outside the home use and that #4 buck is better for inside the home use. Which vid are you talking about? The pepsi box used for a target? or the second vid where I was using the 50455 in it's foctory config? Also you didn't seem to be paying attention to what SHR970 had to say on the matter.