your most accurate/favorite c&r gun?

seansean1444 · December 4, 2010, 07:20 PM

looking to buy a c&r gun and most are in my price range but with so many choises dont know what to get. leaning twoards the mosin nagant

ks_wayward_son · December 4, 2010, 08:20 PM

Sean, what kind of gun are you looking for? Rifle, pistol? I'd say you cannot go wrong with a Mosin for your first. Of course, I also have some others. Just this year with my new C&R license I have already started a good collection...many countries (or formally thereof) represented. Enfield No. 4 Mark I (British), Md 57 Tokarev (Yugoslavia), Mosin Nagant 91/30 (Russia), M 39 Mosin Nagant (Finland), K 31 (Switzerland), and P 38 9mm (Germany), CZ 82 (Czechoslovakia). I am thinking automatically that my next milsurp should be a mauser of some kind...possibly a Yugoslavian 24/47 or VZ 24 from Czechoslovakia. If you find that you enjoy milsurp collecting, shooting...you should look into a class 03 C&R FFL. To me, it sounded daunting at first, but really theres not a whole lot to it. A few holes to jump through and you can have a 3 year collection license for 30.00. You then can have milsurp arms shipped directly to your house at dealer prices. There are some caveats to the license though. Read up about it some more here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...fl03/index.asp

seansean1444 · December 4, 2010, 08:41 PM

i wish i could get a c&r but im only 16... i really like the mosin due to the ammo is relativally cheap. i think it would make a good deer hunting gun out to 200 mabe 300 yards max and i have seen some people get some amazing accuracy out of them. are you familiar of the 91/30 with the pu style scopes? they intrest me the most. also on the back burner is the swiss k31 but mosin is #1

ksstargazer · December 5, 2010, 12:02 PM

In general, my most accurate are my Finnish mosins. My M39's are all 1.5 MOA or better. My M27's are similarly accurate.

My K31's are also very accurate.

My Enfield #4 Mk 1's are very accurate.

My M98/22 mausers are very accurate.

My worst would be my semiautomatics (SKS, AK, Cetme, SVT 40, etc). Generally they get 3-5 MOA.

I also have a few individuals (M91, #1 Mk3 Enfield, Soviet M91/30) that get horrible accuracy.

wogpotter · December 5, 2010, 12:17 PM

#4 MkII Lee-Enfield. The post war Faz rifles were some of the best of the breed, better bored chambers, tighter bores & better triggers.

5-round 100yd group, sorry about the flyer

mrgoodwrench76 · December 5, 2010, 12:26 PM

Beautiful rifle man. What did that set you back?

k31 · December 5, 2010, 12:35 PM

if you want an acurate rifle dont waist time or money on a 91/30 to start
they can be amazing shooters but its a 50/50 the k 31 is hands down the best taken care of millitary rifle they inspected and cleaned often used great steel and only used non corosive ammo the back half of the stocks can be some what ratty looking but all in all they are amazing shooters with a trigger that breaks like glass and usually about 2 or 3 lbs the straight pull is lightning fast
and solid the surplus ammo is great too

benogil · December 5, 2010, 12:56 PM

Real world results for the most accurate milsurp can be best seen from the results of the CMP matches. Although there may be others that are great shooters, the Swede mausers have been the most consistent winners for years, with K31's being second, overall.

wogpotter · December 5, 2010, 03:42 PM

Don't ask, too flippin' much.

It was a wrapped mummy when I got it, unfired except for the factory test rounds. Everything is matching & Headspace, bore & chamber are dead on mil spec.

You can find similar ones round here, but unwrapped for about $450~$500.

Hardcase · December 5, 2010, 04:59 PM

Don't forget the vz24 Mausers. I've got a couple and they're very accurate and a load of fun to shoot. I think that they're underappreciated, but that makes them reasonably priced, I guess.

mrgoodwrench76 · December 5, 2010, 05:30 PM

Worth every penny wogpotter.

wogpotter · December 5, 2010, 07:21 PM

Abso-flipping-lutely.

This is that one "never sell rifle"!

If I ever had to pick a second with a slick a bolt & as accurate it'd be a K-31, a friend let me try his & I was impressed, no small thing for someone who finds most non-Enfield bolts klunky.

NYPD13 · December 5, 2010, 08:30 PM

If you have to choose between the Mosin 91/30 and the K31, the swiss rifle has the edge in the accuracy department.

Ignition Override · December 6, 2010, 02:32 AM

seansean:

Although we very seldom see any Enfield #4 or #5 at our Memphis-area shows

, unless it was sporterized, the #4/1 can be a really good choice.

They can be fairly attractive, but most are not "too purdy to take out and shoot".
You won't feel that you should protect their virginity, and for the other $300-600, you can buy a batch of excellent Prvi ammo. I've reloaded most cases over five times, using 150-grain bullets.

A marksman friend (who set iron sight records at 200 & 600 yards with the AR) tried a few shots at 50 yards. First time with an Enfield.
My #4/1 is just good condition.
His first and only shot from 100 yards went into the center of the bullseye, and he was sitting on the ground, using just his arms, legs

.

doofus47 · December 8, 2010, 11:30 AM

My Spanish M43 Mauser was very accurate. My Mosin M44 was pretty close. My Arisaka carbine was probably the best, once you got used to the bullets going a little high at 100.

My Hakim grouped fairly well, but was always low and right.

My RC K98 would keep MOP (middle of paper) accuracy.

None of them were above or below expectations for military-grade rifles. I used most of them as backup hunting rifles.

madcratebuilder · December 9, 2010, 08:45 AM

Most accurate mil-surp is my Swiss ZFK, followed by K-31's, No4 MkII's. I recently shoot some good hand loads from several of my 8mm Yugo Mausers and was amazed at how much better they shoot vs the 50's surplus I have been shooting.

gandog56 · December 11, 2010, 09:58 PM

Well, I have like a 3 way tie for accuracy. I have a Finn M39 Mosin Nagant, a Finn capture 91/30 Mosin Nagant, and a K98 Mauser that shoot pretty much the same accuracy. I have a Steyr M95 that comes close to them, but dang that thing bangs your shoulder.

DoctorXring · December 11, 2010, 10:14 PM

.

Sean --

How much (real) money do you actually want to spend on this rifle ?

dxr

.

10 Spot Terminator · December 12, 2010, 12:09 PM

WHAT ????

Not one mention of a 96 Swede here ??? If you learn how to read the armourers plate they imbed in the buttstock " before " you buy one you will know exactly what you are getting . As for the Mosins these guys are right about being careful here. Many of these were hard used battle rifles and due to corrosive ammo wrecking havoc with the bores plus being built in war time conditions where top quality got pushed aside due to the Germans pounding on the gates , not all rifles started out or ended up so well. I opted for a pre-war 91-30 and was allowed to slug the bore prior to buying it. This tends to pretty much tell you if you have a keeper or not if the rest of the rifle is nice and tight . If you find the bore to be over .311 at all let someone esle own it. You will pay more these days for a Finn 44 or a good 38 unless you catch someone napping. As I am a reloader I havent Tried the K-31 yet and would ask if boxer primed brass has been made available as when I first saw these rifles made available to the public the ammo was pretty pricey for mil-surp and nobody was loading for it commercially at that time. Owning a nice old rifle is one thing,,, being able to afford to shoot it is another.

Alden · December 12, 2010, 12:13 PM

What does "C&R" mean?

wogpotter · December 12, 2010, 02:59 PM

"Curio & Relic"
a list of specific firearms over (IIRC) 50 years old that can be collected on a C&R License.

seansean1444 · December 12, 2010, 08:27 PM

i have 500 to spend

Ignition Override · December 23, 2010, 12:56 AM

seansean1444: With one of my Enfield "Jungle Carbines", sat on the ground yesterday at the range. All shots at 50 yards into a black Redhead 12" target ('shoot N see' type). Stuck on a three-inch orange circle as a bullseye.

Something is hard to figure out. Made an ok loose group from 50 yards on the bench yesterday.
But just sitting on the ground by the bench, and with no training for this position, got a three-hole string about 2 & 1/2" long, and another string of three shots just 1" long

. Just checked the target, and both strings were touching or very near the bullseye.

Both Enfield #5s are much lighter, handier (and for steady aiming) than a typical full-length milsurp. The smallest of the two aperture holes has a nice ladder adjustment. When I finally go hunt large feral pigs in south TX this spring, the Enfield #5 will probably be the rifle.
My first came from "Joesalter.com", up in New Hampshire. Have you seen his selections

? It cost about $425 before ship & FFL fees in April '09.

sergestorm · December 23, 2010, 09:51 PM

seansean1444

Check out the Swede M96 and M38 rifles. They can be surpurbly accurate and you can judge their bore condition by the round condition tag on the butt stock. While there is a lot of 7.62X54 ammo around for the Mosin, it won't last forever and the Ruskie guns can range from pretty good to terrible. The Swede would be a reloading project but if you are serious about shooting you will get there anyway. The 6.5X55 round is also a great performer on anything from woodchucks to moose.

A really nice Lee Enfield No.4 Mk2 would be my second choice, but don't fall for a cheap worn out war-time model. With Lee Enfields, condition is less certain unless you get one of the newer models like the Mk2 made after 1950.

December 5, 2010, 12:26 PM	#6
mrgoodwrench76 Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 487	Beautiful rifle man. What did that set you back? __________________ God Bless America!!

December 5, 2010, 12:35 PM	#7
k31 Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2010 Location: utah for the time being Posts: 213	if you want an acurate rifle dont waist time or money on a 91/30 to start they can be amazing shooters but its a 50/50 the k 31 is hands down the best taken care of millitary rifle they inspected and cleaned often used great steel and only used non corosive ammo the back half of the stocks can be some what ratty looking but all in all they are amazing shooters with a trigger that breaks like glass and usually about 2 or 3 lbs the straight pull is lightning fast and solid the surplus ammo is great too __________________ "the best shooting firearm is the firearm you shoot best" Tony Marr

December 5, 2010, 04:59 PM	#10
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	Don't forget the vz24 Mausers. I've got a couple and they're very accurate and a load of fun to shoot. I think that they're underappreciated, but that makes them reasonably priced, I guess. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

December 5, 2010, 05:30 PM	#11
mrgoodwrench76 Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 487	Worth every penny wogpotter. __________________ God Bless America!!

December 5, 2010, 08:30 PM	#13
NYPD13 Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2008 Posts: 370	If you have to choose between the Mosin 91/30 and the K31, the swiss rifle has the edge in the accuracy department. __________________ "THE CONSTITUTION ONLY GIVES PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS, YOU HAVE TO CATCH IT YOURSELF." ~BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

December 4, 2010, 07:20 PM	#1
seansean1444 Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2010 Location: ithaca, new york (home of the ithaca shotguns!) Posts: 395	your most accurate/favorite c&r gun? looking to buy a c&r gun and most are in my price range but with so many choises dont know what to get. leaning twoards the mosin nagant

December 4, 2010, 08:20 PM	#2
ks_wayward_son Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2007 Posts: 332	Sean, what kind of gun are you looking for? Rifle, pistol? I'd say you cannot go wrong with a Mosin for your first. Of course, I also have some others. Just this year with my new C&R license I have already started a good collection...many countries (or formally thereof) represented. Enfield No. 4 Mark I (British), Md 57 Tokarev (Yugoslavia), Mosin Nagant 91/30 (Russia), M 39 Mosin Nagant (Finland), K 31 (Switzerland), and P 38 9mm (Germany), CZ 82 (Czechoslovakia). I am thinking automatically that my next milsurp should be a mauser of some kind...possibly a Yugoslavian 24/47 or VZ 24 from Czechoslovakia. If you find that you enjoy milsurp collecting, shooting...you should look into a class 03 C&R FFL. To me, it sounded daunting at first, but really theres not a whole lot to it. A few holes to jump through and you can have a 3 year collection license for 30.00. You then can have milsurp arms shipped directly to your house at dealer prices. There are some caveats to the license though. Read up about it some more here: http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...fl03/index.asp

December 4, 2010, 08:41 PM	#3
seansean1444 Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2010 Location: ithaca, new york (home of the ithaca shotguns!) Posts: 395	i wish i could get a c&r but im only 16... i really like the mosin due to the ammo is relativally cheap. i think it would make a good deer hunting gun out to 200 mabe 300 yards max and i have seen some people get some amazing accuracy out of them. are you familiar of the 91/30 with the pu style scopes? they intrest me the most. also on the back burner is the swiss k31 but mosin is #1

December 5, 2010, 12:02 PM	#4
ksstargazer Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: Flint Hills of Kansas Posts: 316	In general, my most accurate are my Finnish mosins. My M39's are all 1.5 MOA or better. My M27's are similarly accurate. My K31's are also very accurate. My Enfield #4 Mk 1's are very accurate. My M98/22 mausers are very accurate. My worst would be my semiautomatics (SKS, AK, Cetme, SVT 40, etc). Generally they get 3-5 MOA. I also have a few individuals (M91, #1 Mk3 Enfield, Soviet M91/30) that get horrible accuracy.

December 5, 2010, 12:17 PM	#5
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	#4 MkII Lee-Enfield. The post war Faz rifles were some of the best of the breed, better bored chambers, tighter bores & better triggers. 5-round 100yd group, sorry about the flyer

December 5, 2010, 12:56 PM	#8
benogil Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Posts: 131	Real world results for the most accurate milsurp can be best seen from the results of the CMP matches. Although there may be others that are great shooters, the Swede mausers have been the most consistent winners for years, with K31's being second, overall.

December 5, 2010, 03:42 PM	#9
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Don't ask, too flippin' much. It was a wrapped mummy when I got it, unfired except for the factory test rounds. Everything is matching & Headspace, bore & chamber are dead on mil spec. You can find similar ones round here, but unwrapped for about $450~$500.

December 5, 2010, 07:21 PM	#12
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Abso-flipping-lutely. This is that one "never sell rifle"! If I ever had to pick a second with a slick a bolt & as accurate it'd be a K-31, a friend let me try his & I was impressed, no small thing for someone who finds most non-Enfield bolts klunky.

December 6, 2010, 02:32 AM	#14
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	seansean: Although we very seldom see any Enfield #4 or #5 at our Memphis-area shows, unless it was sporterized, the #4/1 can be a really good choice. They can be fairly attractive, but most are not "too purdy to take out and shoot". You won't feel that you should protect their virginity, and for the other $300-600, you can buy a batch of excellent Prvi ammo. I've reloaded most cases over five times, using 150-grain bullets. A marksman friend (who set iron sight records at 200 & 600 yards with the AR) tried a few shots at 50 yards. First time with an Enfield. My #4/1 is just good condition. His first and only shot from 100 yards went into the center of the bullseye, and he was sitting on the ground, using just his arms, legs. Last edited by Ignition Override; December 6, 2010 at 02:39 AM.

December 8, 2010, 11:30 AM	#15
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	My Spanish M43 Mauser was very accurate. My Mosin M44 was pretty close. My Arisaka carbine was probably the best, once you got used to the bullets going a little high at 100. My Hakim grouped fairly well, but was always low and right. My RC K98 would keep MOP (middle of paper) accuracy. None of them were above or below expectations for military-grade rifles. I used most of them as backup hunting rifles.

December 9, 2010, 08:45 AM	#16
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Most accurate mil-surp is my Swiss ZFK, followed by K-31's, No4 MkII's. I recently shoot some good hand loads from several of my 8mm Yugo Mausers and was amazed at how much better they shoot vs the 50's surplus I have been shooting.

December 11, 2010, 09:58 PM	#17
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 979	Well, I have like a 3 way tie for accuracy. I have a Finn M39 Mosin Nagant, a Finn capture 91/30 Mosin Nagant, and a K98 Mauser that shoot pretty much the same accuracy. I have a Steyr M95 that comes close to them, but dang that thing bangs your shoulder. __________________ Some people think I'm paranoid because I have guns. If I have guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?

December 11, 2010, 10:14 PM	#18
DoctorXring Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2002 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 392	. Sean -- How much (real) money do you actually want to spend on this rifle ? dxr .

December 12, 2010, 12:09 PM	#19
10 Spot Terminator Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 348	WHAT ???? Not one mention of a 96 Swede here ??? If you learn how to read the armourers plate they imbed in the buttstock " before " you buy one you will know exactly what you are getting . As for the Mosins these guys are right about being careful here. Many of these were hard used battle rifles and due to corrosive ammo wrecking havoc with the bores plus being built in war time conditions where top quality got pushed aside due to the Germans pounding on the gates , not all rifles started out or ended up so well. I opted for a pre-war 91-30 and was allowed to slug the bore prior to buying it. This tends to pretty much tell you if you have a keeper or not if the rest of the rifle is nice and tight . If you find the bore to be over .311 at all let someone esle own it. You will pay more these days for a Finn 44 or a good 38 unless you catch someone napping. As I am a reloader I havent Tried the K-31 yet and would ask if boxer primed brass has been made available as when I first saw these rifles made available to the public the ammo was pretty pricey for mil-surp and nobody was loading for it commercially at that time. Owning a nice old rifle is one thing,,, being able to afford to shoot it is another.

December 12, 2010, 12:13 PM	#20
Alden Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 265	What does "C&R" mean?

December 12, 2010, 02:59 PM	#21
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	"Curio & Relic" a list of specific firearms over (IIRC) 50 years old that can be collected on a C&R License.

December 12, 2010, 08:27 PM	#22
seansean1444 Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2010 Location: ithaca, new york (home of the ithaca shotguns!) Posts: 395	i have 500 to spend

December 23, 2010, 12:56 AM	#23
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	seansean1444: With one of my Enfield "Jungle Carbines", sat on the ground yesterday at the range. All shots at 50 yards into a black Redhead 12" target ('shoot N see' type). Stuck on a three-inch orange circle as a bullseye. Something is hard to figure out. Made an ok loose group from 50 yards on the bench yesterday. But just sitting on the ground by the bench, and with no training for this position, got a three-hole string about 2 & 1/2" long, and another string of three shots just 1" long. Just checked the target, and both strings were touching or very near the bullseye. Both Enfield #5s are much lighter, handier (and for steady aiming) than a typical full-length milsurp. The smallest of the two aperture holes has a nice ladder adjustment. When I finally go hunt large feral pigs in south TX this spring, the Enfield #5 will probably be the rifle. My first came from "Joesalter.com", up in New Hampshire. Have you seen his selections? It cost about $425 before ship & FFL fees in April '09. Last edited by Ignition Override; December 23, 2010 at 01:27 AM.

December 23, 2010, 09:51 PM	#24
sergestorm Junior Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Location: S. W. Florida Posts: 6	seansean1444 Check out the Swede M96 and M38 rifles. They can be surpurbly accurate and you can judge their bore condition by the round condition tag on the butt stock. While there is a lot of 7.62X54 ammo around for the Mosin, it won't last forever and the Ruskie guns can range from pretty good to terrible. The Swede would be a reloading project but if you are serious about shooting you will get there anyway. The 6.5X55 round is also a great performer on anything from woodchucks to moose. A really nice Lee Enfield No.4 Mk2 would be my second choice, but don't fall for a cheap worn out war-time model. With Lee Enfields, condition is less certain unless you get one of the newer models like the Mk2 made after 1950.