Opinion or fact?

[Double Naught Spy]

How is anyone getting the idea that I'm against training????

It may not be that you are against training, but given the logic of your article expert that noted comptetition is unlike real fighting, training is also unlike real fighting.

[Don P]

He impressed me by saying early on that real world gun fights had almost nothing in common with competitive shooting. (You do, of course, point and shoot in both.)

If anything competitive shooting will get people practicing drawing their gun, doing magazine changes, using cover/
A question for the folks on this forum. How many of our members practice drawing their weapon, doing re-loads, and using cover?

[kgpcr]

Ask them how many gunfights they have really been in. That will tell you alot.

[JimL]

If anything competitive shooting will get people practicing drawing their gun, doing magazine changes, using cover/

So because I said competition is not synonymous with real gun fighting now I'm against competition?

[Glenn Dee]

Well I think we all know what they say about opinions...

I believe that a person involved in competitive shooting will have a huge advantage over a person not so involved if engaged in a real world shooting.

IMO there is no magic formula, or standard tactic's that guarantee survival in a shooting. Other than practice, practice practice, and situational awareness. A competetive shooter will have the advantage of intimate familiarity of his firearm, muscle memory, and good shooting habits.

Glenn Dee.

[Erik]

Something to remember: A lot of the anti-target shooting bias has its roots in an era when target shooting (a la facing 90 degrees from the target with one hand in the pocket) was the norm in training, and good folks were getting killed despite their relative prowess at target shooting. Folks speculated as to why, and the bias emerged. These days, the pendulum having swung a few times, we understand that it isn't an all or nothing affair.

[Eagle0711]

Seems like everyone you meet anymore is an instructor, or ex-seal, or some kind of hi- speed operator.

[JollyRoger]

Back to the original post:

Weaver: when I came on as a LEO 21 years ago, Weaver was the preferred stance - isosceles came back in vogue several years after. One of the big advantages of the Weaver stance was it allowed you to better use cover such as door frames and walls inside a residence when you were serving search or arrest warrants. The isosceles position led you to expose more of your shoulder and upper body. Not as big a consideration in a CCW context, but as you said, this guy was LE.

Corners become a big deal when you give chase in a LE context. Best place for a running bad guy to lay in wait. Keyholing, or slicing the pie were routinely taught for this. "Staying away from corners" - valid enough, but could probably be stated better. Once again, not a big thing in a CCW context, as you should not be giving chase.

Shooting on the move is tough, even at moderate ranges. I've seen some guys manage it at kind of a fast walk, but haven't seen anybody hit consistently at a jog, much less an all out run - and this is on a range without the adrenaline pumping. Most shooters are better served by shooting, then running, stopping & shooting again if necessary.

Kind of a matter of perspective.

[JimL]

Weaver: when I came on as a LEO 21 years ago, Weaver was the preferred stance - isosceles came back in vogue several years after. One of the big advantages of the Weaver stance was it allowed you to better use cover

Perhaps it depends on how you define Weaver. Actually something related to isosceles (center) is readily converted right or left depending on what side the cover is on. The actual words are meaningless on the ground. Imagine someone thinking, I must keep both arms straight when I look around this corner. Not gonna happen in reality - assuming a modicum of common sense.

Most shooters are better served by shooting, then running, stopping & shooting again if necessary.

Oh my! Dance around then shoot!! Dance around then shoot!! (Just joking. "Dance around" were that writer's [careless] words.)

[ClayInTx]

If the “proper” way to do a thing keeps switching back and forth it’s a good indication that neither one is right.

[Double Naught Spy]

Once again, not a big thing in a CCW context, as you should not be giving chase.

Unless of course you need to give chase and then it is a big deal.

Most shooters are better served by shooting, then running, stopping & shooting again if necessary.

Most probably are. Then again, most don't go to the range more than a couple or four times a year an even then of those that do, many do it for reasons other than practicing any sort of defensive skills. Based on what I have seen in CHL classes which are comprised of people ahead of the general population curve because they have taken grand steps toward self defense preparation by being able to carry concealed, less than 10% of those who have a license to carry concealed practice more than a couple of times a year and a bunch only practice before they need to quality, like a lot of cops.

So when we talk about "most shooters," it should be on the table that we are talking about a group composed of the people who practice the least, who have the lowest skill set, lowest training, etc.

For "most shooters," there will never be a gun fight or a situation where they have to use a gun in self defense even though many may have gotten into guns after something bad had happened to them. For the few people in the larger group of "most shooters" who do end up needing a gun for self defense, most will only need the most rudimentary operating and skill level base to be a successful gun user as they are shooting at interview distances and can hit the target regardless of sight pictures, trigger control, shooting stance, etc. and even then, to be considered successful in their endeavors, they need only have survived the encounter without having hurt any non-bad guys and the bad guy be at least driven away (shot or not). There are a surprising number of self defense shootings where the shooter is successful and either hasn't fired a firearm before or is a non-shooter.

So yes, it is

Kind of a matter of perspective.

[JimL]

If the “proper” way to do a thing keeps switching back and forth it’s a good indication that neither one is right.

Nothing is always right. The real world is a continuous stream of adaptations.

[Shin71]

You might want to just look into what people are trying to tell you, find out what the circumstances are they are telling you to use that technique in and then pick it apart, have someone you believe has skill in the area you are looking at and have them give the pros/cons and what they would do in that same situation (ask several people). Ask a lot of questions of the instructor and others with similar skills.

Unless it is totally outrageous and unsafe file the information away as a possible option.

That is what I would do. If you start hitting the instructor up with a lot of questions and he says "Because I said so" or gets flustered then he/she might not be the person you want giving you instruction. If he or she can give you a good explanation or provide personal experience where that tactic worked and others didn't then that is a good thing. A great thing is when they see a flaw in their instruction and thank you for pointing it out and adjusts accordingly...

[old bear]

However, if you have the fundamental in grained in you subconscious, its gonna kick in whether you know it or not. You always revert to your training, if you don't have the training, or don't practice, then you miss. If you've developed good habits of marksmanship fundamentals then your habits, and training, and practice are gonna kick it. Habits come from practice.

"You will fight the way you have trained." When it happens for real the fight will be over before you know it started, only later will you remember what you did right or wrong.

[JimL]

You might want to just look into what people are trying to tell you

I think you'll find that an awful lot of people here have looked into an awful lot of things and have an awful lot of experience. There are hunters and/or military and/or LEO's. I, for one, have been all three in past decades. Mind telling us who you were aiming your comment at?

[Rifleman 173]

Actually, when you are in danger and are having to shoot for your life, you will pop off rounds in a variety of different ways without thinking about form or how you were trained. In some cases you will automatically shoot with one hand at close range like you see done in some cowboy movies. In other situations, if you have time, you will use cover to your advantage. You will use two hands and do the aimed fire thing. Still in other situations, you may drop to one knee or drop straight down to the ground and then sight in on your target. The point is that when you are in danger you will automatically or instinctively react to what you perceive is the threat in front of you.

[Eagle0711]

It seems that I always think the same as Kraigway. We will react when under stress the way that we have trained. That's when the sympathetic nervious system or autonomic takes over and we perform thru the subsconscious. That is why you should learn the technique that works BEST for you. I would like to hear from Glen E. Meyer on this. I believe that he has the credentials.
Some run from one big name instructor to another looking for the Magic technique to win a gunfight. Sorta like a dog chasing it's tail. Best ,Lyle

If you can't shoot faster than the other guy; shoot straighter. Chic Gaylord

[Rifleman 173]

We will react when under stress the way that we have trained.

I know that people think this and many actually believe it but the truth is that when you are startled your instincts don't always follow your training. You will find yourself in a cross situation where you are automatically reacting to stimuli that you feel is a threat to you and the way you were trained doesn't fit this situation as best and as quickly as you can determine. So, you have to immediately improvise, adapt and overcome.

At the range you are taught to use posts and columns for cover and support. In a dark alley at night there may not be any columns or posts for support or cover. The best thing you've got is that stinky garbage dumpster over there. And if you move to the dumpster your footing around it becomes tenative so now you have worry about falling down too. All of your training sure didn't address this kind of shooting scenario so you adapt from there.

In the woods you and I exhange shots at each other. I get down behind a berm and I see you drop down behind a 12 inch diameter soft pine tree. From where I'm at I can hear you giggling because you think you're safe. I adapt and overcome because I use my .308 rifle to turn your soft pine cover into kindling as my bullets zip through it and into you. I adapted and overcame in a way where your training worked to my advantage.

What you need to do is extend everything you learn in training. You have got to couple training with high speed thinking or emergency situation thinking. Training will only take you so far and that may not be far enough to survive in many situations. You need to immediately go beyond what you were trained to do.

Years ago California Highway Patrol officers were taught to unload their revolvers and put their fired casings in their pockets. That all changed after the shootout where a number of them were killed trying to stop some armed robbers. It was determined that the officers wasted valuable time by stashing their fired ammo cases in their pockets when they should have just dumped them on the ground. So train hard and learn to think on your feet.

[JimL]

So train hard and learn to think on your feet.

And sacrifice 20 virgins every day.