New gun owner needs advice

[MilitaMatters]

I have been looking into buying a gun for quite a while but only recently turned 18 so until now, I've been unable to purchase a firearm. My situation is as follows; I'm looking for a bolt-action rifle that preferably fires the 7.62x39 or the 7.62x54r ACCURATELY. I'm aware of the Mosin Nagant and the cz527, but quite honestly.. The Mosin is inherently inaccurate and the CZ is out of my price range. Anything under $500 that marks around 2 MOA would fit my needs perfectly.

An extra quality I am looking for but don't necessarily need would be a decent after-market for the rifle.

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My final question is how much in fees or taxes would I expect to pay in California? What are the steps I need to take after deciding what rifle I want?

Thank you all for your time and assistance,
-MM

[Targa]

I really couldn't care less about MOA so I can't help you there. My 91/30 slaps the snot out of a 8" steel plate at 250 yards, sure it could do much better if I had better eyes and more room where I shoot. From what I understand, the Finish Mosin's are some of the more accurate ones and IMO the best looking.

[Spats McGee]

Welcome to TFL, MilitaMatters!

I'm not a rifle expert, not by any stretch of the imagination. With that out of the way, how set are you on those two calibers? It seems to me that if you were to open up to some other calibers, you might have more options.

What, exactly, do you want to do with this rifle? Target shoot? Hunt? All-purpose rifle? Knowing that will help our resident experts help you.

[g.willikers]

^^^
Yeah, there's a host of new inexpensive rifles from many of the manufacturers these days in a very affordable range of prices.
What's wrong with .223 for affordable ammo, too?
By the way, you're asking this in the wrong section, try the next one up for more answers.

[redlightrich]

Hello and welcome. You should be in the bolt section, but that being said, you are doing the right thing by researching. My only advice I can offer is spend a little extra time researching before you spend your hard earned money. I have made the mistake of researching a little, only to find a better suited gun after I already bought. Please learn from my mistake, and when you think you are sure, read a little more, maybe an extra week until you are certain. A good gun can be a life long investment. Make sure you don't regret your purchase by acting too soon.

Good luck and enjoy the search, it's part of the fun!!!

Rich

[Spats McGee]

Thread moved to Bolt, Lever & Pump Action.

[brasscollector]

First rifle? IMO you should get a 308. Surplus 54R is drying up and pretty soon those mosins will be mostly wall-hangers. Not too many options for a factory x39 bolt gun either, as much as I would like that not to be true. You won't be disappointed buying a 308 or even a 30-06, many to be had in/around the $500 mark. Accuracy is going to most likely be better than 2MOA with a 308 and ammunition is plentiful.

[Nathan]

Can you share more about what drives you this direction? Why 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 x 54 r? Ammo cost? Love ol Russian rounds?

Also, what is accurate to you ??" @ ??? yds?

[Panfisher]

Any modern bolt action rifle should be able to do 2 MOA with ease. Savage Axis, Ruger American, are a couple of choices, though honestly I don't know what the going price on a Ruger American is. I have a sort of hankering for a cheap, light, bolt action in 7.62 x 39 myself.

[jmr40]

A 308 is equal to 7.62X54 with many, many more options, easier to find ammo, much better accuracy potential. Why handicap yourself. I'd buy the Ruger American. Actually I did, but there are several other options in that price range.

[RC20]

I wou9ld go one of two ways.

Buy a donor Savage and get the barrel you want put on it (if you don'
t want to spend the $120 or so to do it yourself in tools for that operation)

A gun smith won't charge an arm and leg as its easy to take old barrel off and put new one on.

Call Savage and see if they will custom make you one (probably not in the 7.62 x 54, maybe the 39.

Per other advice, buy a Savage 308 from Cableaa in either their 12FV or
10T and get a great rifle that can shoot 600 yds accurately.

I am working my way up to a 7.5 x 55 Swiss. That will go on my Long Action project gun (it will have 2 barrels I can swap back and forth, 30-06 bull and the 7.5. Fun way to go and can get unusual calibers.

[dakota.potts]

Howa makes a barreled action in 7.62X39 for around $400. Best I can tell, it just needs a stock and scope rings and then whatever optic you want to put on it (figure another $200 to start with). But then you're at almost as much money as the CZ

I do wonder why you want those calibers for your first rifle. Is it the cost? As stated, .223 is along the same price range and 54R is not much cheaper than regular .308. If you're looking for interchangeability with other common modern military rifles, either .223 or .308 will do as well.

You do have other options. Finnish Mosins are known to shoot pretty well and can be had for under your price range. You could find a bubba'd Mosin with a decent bore and attach a proper scope mount (not UTG) and scope to it. If I understand California law correctly, you could also get a standard stock fixed magazine SKS which are known for pretty decent accuracy. You could probably get better accuracy by shooting something like Hornady SST out of it rather than Wolf and Tula, but that stuff (I like the Barnaul myself) does just fine from my VZ 58

[taylorce1]

If you can't afford a CZ and think the Mosin is inaccurate then you have to change your cartridge choices. If I were in your shoes I'd pick up a Ruger American Predator in .223 or the American Ranch in .300 Blackout. The .223 will be easy to learn to shoot, and won't hurt the pocket book. The .300 BLK shooting supersonic bullets will compare favorably with the 7.62X39 ballistically.

[James K]

Those are pretty limiting factors. The 7.62x54R is really an obsolete cartridge, kept alive only because the Russians and their allies made and stockpiled so many milllions of them, and so many billion rounds of ammo. It is not a bad cartridge, but then neither are dozens of other rounds in the same category, like .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65x54 Mauser, 7.5 French, etc., etc.

The 7.62x39 is more modern, but it is a low powered round made for use in what amounts to an upgraded submachinegun. Again, the huge amount of guns and ammo turned out by Russia and its (then) allied nations have kept it a first line cartridge.

Unless I had some other reason for wanting to use one of those cartridges (like sitting on a million or so rounds of ammo), I would choose a more modern cartridge for a new rifle.

Jim

[MilitaMatters]

Ok, going off of the general decent factored against the 7.62x54r, and the relative lack of options provided by the 7.62x39, what would be a good caliber?

My perfect cartridge would be a mid, to long range caliber. I want to be able to engage a target at longer distances(+500m), but also have the option to take down a threat at mid-close range (100-400m). Something with a decent price and availability.

Would 5.56x45 really be my best option here? Or would I be better off with a 7.62x51?

My purpose for buying is for hunting/long-distance marksmanship so accuracy doesn't need to be sub-MOA, just close to it. Think on a scale of 1/10, and 10 being Chris Kyle, the accuracy I'd expect is a 7-8/10

My rifle choice will be purely based on the cartridge and Its capabilities. Something that could outshoot me. And my skill is relatively high.


Thanks all for the help and patience,
-MM

[Blindstitch]

Seems like the criteria has to many variables.

On the cheap I would have to say 30-06 at about $20 a box.

For the distance I would think magnum cartridges would be the key but they aren't inexpensive.

I seem to think the only way you will get everything you want at an inexpensive price is to reload your own ammo but initial costs to set up for one rifle it would be cheaper to buy loaded ammo.

[MJFlores]

When you get into a bolt gun, there are SO many better cartridges to consider..which are easier to find and cheaper to buy. Just throwing that out there.

[Panfisher]

Long distance targets and hunting. Hunting of what. Depending on what you want to hunt, seems like a .223 would work well, if you can get a faster twist rate say 1/9 to 1/7 to handle the heavier bullets. The lack of recoil, generally good accuracy and plenty of ammo would go a long way to enhance practice time. Other options are the various Savages in any number of chamberings from .243 to .308. Keep in mind if you want to shoot longer ranges you are going to need a good scope as well.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by MilitaMatters

My perfect cartridge would be a mid, to long range caliber. I want to be able to engage a target at longer distances(+500m), but also have the option to take down a threat at mid-close range (100-400m). Something with a decent price and availability.

Would 5.56x45 really be my best option here? Or would I be better off with a 7.62x51?

Since you just turned 18, I'd go down to your local recruiting office and go enlist in the Army or Marines and select Infantry as your MOS. Let the military teach you to shoot, learn to qualify expert, excel at military tasks related to your job, and learn as much as you can about other military jobs through correspondence courses. Show initiative and competence in what your do and you'll be one of the first offered your choice of schools and training. You'll get paid to learn to shoot the distances you are wanting to learn with both cartridges listed as well as a few others.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Long distance targets and hunting. Hunting of what(?)

Yeah that is the million dollar question. Regardless I would not use 5.56 at over 200 yards for hunting anything large.

...only recently turned 18...

Hold up there... ok if you just turned 18 and are apparently not very familiar with firearms. You would do yourself a huge favor by getting a bolt action .22 rifle and spending some time at the range with it. If you get a big bore rifle as a first gun with no additional training and help you re setting yourself up for not such a great result.

Next you should do a little more research on what you are hunting and the best caliber for it.

[CarJunkieLS1]

For factory loaded ammo and "distance shooting" as well as hunting the the 6.5 Creedmoor is an excellent choice. The bullet flies like a 300 WM but recoils less than the .308. A 140 Amax for paper and a 140gr soft point for deer.

For a reloader the .260 Remington would be my choice.

[MilitaMatters]

Deer and elk. But with the potential to take a human down at the longer ranges. Staying as FAR away from anything SHTF related as possible, mind you. In response to the question of my experience, I am trained very well in firearm operation and use. I am currently in the process of enlisting into the military (pre-MEPS, post-ASVAB) and plan enlisting in as a Cav scout or MP.

I don't care how hard a round hits as long as it can meet the range/accuracy/availability criteria.

And as you all know, a .22 rimfire is almost as rare on shelves these days as .50BMG. However, .22Lr provides the opportunity to practice marksmanship, but nothing past the basics.

-MM

[SRH78]

Elk is a game changer. If you want accuracy past 500 meters, relatively inexpensive, and able to take down elk, I would look for a good 30-06. Personally, I would look for a Savage 110 or Remington 700 but there are plenty of other good choices. You could also go with a 308 or 270.

[40CalGuy]

the rifle that meets your criteria is a Ruger American in .30-06. it comes with an optic for under $500.

that said, i cannot recommend this as a first rifle. the ammo (at roughly $1/shot) is likely to be an issue from a cost perspective. if $500 is too much to spend on a rifle, I can't imagine your budget can handle too much practice at $1/rnd either.

the Ruger American in .300blk is a good suggestion. it's slightly cheaper, compares well to a 7.62x39 but ballistically even the supers can't compete with a .30-06. and the non-hunting supersonics are $.50/rnd and up. hunting rounds are going to be at or over the price of the .30-06.

if you're true use purpose is hunting elk and you're truly expecting a kill at the ranges given then you're very clearly into calibers above .308.

that's pay-to-play territory (gun, optics, ammo for practice, ammo for hunting). If you're under 100yds then i'd recommend something that maybe you haven't considered:

a remington 870 express magnum 26" or longer 3.5" chambered smooth bore. run rifled (sometimes called foster) slugs in it.

it'll cover you for elk, deer, coyote, javelina, dove, quail, geese (with steel shot), etc. and you can get them for $350 and under.

there's a ton of shoot 12guage shotguns that fit this bill. if you can bring the range down to under 100yds, my suggestion is that your first large caliber gun be a 12guage (or if you prefer or need a smaller and lighter shotgun, a 20guage).

[40CalGuy]

i'd also like to add that over 300m the practical application of most people's shooting skills as it pertains to the ethical take of game is quite frankly, over-exaggeration and utter bull[color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. unless you're hitting a half-MOA dot for your given range factoring in wind, elevation, barometric pressure, the coriolis effect, your ballistic coefficient, relative humidity and heat mirage with no dope chart and no spotter i say you're full of it and more likely to end up wounding an animal. at your stated 500m, if you were able to achieve groups consistent with the above then you'd have a 2.5" group. to achieve that kind of boring regularity you need four things: an exceptional weapon, an excellent cartridge, good glass, and a ton of trigger time.

if you have the skills to pay the bills then you wouldn't expect unrealistic results from calibers that cannot obtain them. 7.62x54R and 7.62x39 are great rounds, but accuracy out of nearly any platform that shoots them is going to be 1.5MOA at best, and that's at 100yds and in a good platform. 7.62x39 is not a good choice over 300m, and you'd be lucky to hit a 5" target with an exceptional platform with that round. after 300m the drop is significant as is velocity loss.

notable exceptions for MOA expectancy would be a Rifle Dynamics DMR build or an SVD. Both are very, very far out of your budget.

long story short: i think your expectations, your caliber choices, and your budget are entirely out of line with one another.