winchester 1892 carbine?

srit1111 · June 8, 2014, 07:01 PM

I recently purchased a Winchester 1892 in 44-40 caliber.It has a 20" barrel and no saddle ring. The forearm has an end cap and no barrel rings. In my research I found that the Blue Book of Gun Values does not list this model with these features. Do I have a rare example of Model 92 or a gun of married parts?It sure looks original.

gyvel · June 8, 2014, 07:40 PM

When you say "no barrel rings," do you mean the whole mag tube is unsupported?

Jim Watson · June 8, 2014, 07:44 PM

If it has a foreend cap and no barrel bands, just a half ring between foreend and muzzle, you have a "short rifle," not a carbine. Ought to have a crescent or shotgun buttplate instead of carbine style, too.

Of course pictures would help a lot.

James K · June 8, 2014, 07:51 PM

The smaller caliber carbines didn't have the "figure 8" barrel bands, having the rifle style dovetail magazine band instead, but a .44-40 should have the former.

My first suspicion is that your gun is a rifle with the barrel cut down past the magazine band. What kind of buttplate does it have?

Jim

srit1111 · June 9, 2014, 06:21 AM

Here are some pics of my 1892. Does anyone know if the barrel looks like it has been cut to 20" or is this a short rifle.

Jim Watson · June 9, 2014, 08:27 AM

I think it is a parts gun.
It has rifle foreend length and tip and buttplate, but carbine front barrel band and a funny looking front sight.
Also reblued over all.

**44 AMP** · June 9, 2014, 10:12 AM

It is very likely a reworked gun.

But,

back in the day, Winchester would, literally, sell you a gun with any combination of features you wanted and paid for. You could, if you wanted, order a gun with a carbine magazine, a rifle barrel and a shotgun butt. Or any other combination you wanted.

You can find combinations (I have seen some, myself) that are not in the catalogs or the usual reference materials, and are still factory original, and not a reworked gun. Factory letters from Winchester are not always possible (and many/most owners never bothered to try and get one), because a lot of the records no longer exist.

The bluing on your gun looks really nice, which strongly suggests it was redone (and done well). It is very likely your gun has had work done on it, to wind up with the features it has. Guns with non-standard combinations usually are, but may not be.

Look at the barrel (and any other) markings. I'm no expert, but I do know that the markings were different in different eras of production. These can give you an approximate date range for when the barrel was made, at least.

Example: Early .30-30 Win barrels were marked .30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire). Later guns, are marked .30-30 Win. Experts know (or can find) when the changes were made, and it is different for different models, and calibers.

Also patent dates on the barrel (or anywhere) further ID the time period when the gun was made. Or at least, give you a range of time during which it could be made.

James K · June 9, 2014, 11:50 AM

Based on the appearance of the buttplate and the barrel, I am very much inclined to say that the gun has been highly polished and reblued.

Also, you said it has no barrel bands, but it has the carbine style band. I still suspect it was a rifle and the stock and magazine tube were cut down and the carbine band fitted.

Only a Winchester letter would show how it left the factory.

Jim

srit1111 · June 9, 2014, 05:29 PM

I am filling out an order form for a factory letter tonight. Let you know what I find out. As far as the finish I,'ve seen a lot of reblued guns and it doesn't look at all reblued when you have it in your hands.

James K · June 9, 2014, 08:42 PM

It sure doesn't look original in the pictures.

Jim

gyvel · June 9, 2014, 11:13 PM

I have to go with Jim on this one. That gun looks like a definite reblue; Too shiny.

DennisCA · June 10, 2014, 11:59 AM

IMHO - Def looks like it had some work done on it, being that said it looks good. So my question is: When are you going to shoot it?

srit1111 · June 10, 2014, 05:20 PM

Going to the farm to shoot this weekend if it doesn't rain. Take a another look at my picture of the barrel and magazine they are turning purple. Its hard to see in the picture.I didnt know reblue turns purple like real old original finish. Im no expert but I think it might not have been reblued.

MJN77 · June 10, 2014, 05:53 PM

Not an expert here either, but that butt plate looks like the ones on the 1894 Winchester commemoratives in the 1960s and 70s. Sure doesn't look like an original one.

gyvel · June 10, 2014, 05:59 PM

"Turning purple" is a classic result of a reblue. Steel that has a high nickel content will turn purple when reblued using bluing salts at normal bluing temps. In order to get a true blue, the gun must be flash blued at a higher temp which ruins the salts and makes them useless.

Jim Watson · June 10, 2014, 06:03 PM

Or of bluing at too high temperature.

Hawg · June 10, 2014, 06:33 PM

It is a cut down rifle with a carbine band added. It was probably reblued at the same time the work was done.

June 8, 2014, 07:01 PM	#1
srit1111 Junior Member Join Date: June 8, 2014 Posts: 4	winchester 1892 carbine? I recently purchased a Winchester 1892 in 44-40 caliber.It has a 20" barrel and no saddle ring. The forearm has an end cap and no barrel rings. In my research I found that the Blue Book of Gun Values does not list this model with these features. Do I have a rare example of Model 92 or a gun of married parts?It sure looks original.

June 9, 2014, 10:12 AM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	It is very likely a reworked gun. But, back in the day, Winchester would, literally, sell you a gun with any combination of features you wanted and paid for. You could, if you wanted, order a gun with a carbine magazine, a rifle barrel and a shotgun butt. Or any other combination you wanted. You can find combinations (I have seen some, myself) that are not in the catalogs or the usual reference materials, and are still factory original, and not a reworked gun. Factory letters from Winchester are not always possible (and many/most owners never bothered to try and get one), because a lot of the records no longer exist. The bluing on your gun looks really nice, which strongly suggests it was redone (and done well). It is very likely your gun has had work done on it, to wind up with the features it has. Guns with non-standard combinations usually are, but may not be. Look at the barrel (and any other) markings. I'm no expert, but I do know that the markings were different in different eras of production. These can give you an approximate date range for when the barrel was made, at least. Example: Early .30-30 Win barrels were marked .30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire). Later guns, are marked .30-30 Win. Experts know (or can find) when the changes were made, and it is different for different models, and calibers. Also patent dates on the barrel (or anywhere) further ID the time period when the gun was made. Or at least, give you a range of time during which it could be made. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 8, 2014, 07:40 PM	#2
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	When you say "no barrel rings," do you mean the whole mag tube is unsupported?

June 8, 2014, 07:44 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	If it has a foreend cap and no barrel bands, just a half ring between foreend and muzzle, you have a "short rifle," not a carbine. Ought to have a crescent or shotgun buttplate instead of carbine style, too. Of course pictures would help a lot.

June 8, 2014, 07:51 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The smaller caliber carbines didn't have the "figure 8" barrel bands, having the rifle style dovetail magazine band instead, but a .44-40 should have the former. My first suspicion is that your gun is a rifle with the barrel cut down past the magazine band. What kind of buttplate does it have? Jim

June 9, 2014, 08:27 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I think it is a parts gun. It has rifle foreend length and tip and buttplate, but carbine front barrel band and a funny looking front sight. Also reblued over all.

June 9, 2014, 11:50 AM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Based on the appearance of the buttplate and the barrel, I am very much inclined to say that the gun has been highly polished and reblued. Also, you said it has no barrel bands, but it has the carbine style band. I still suspect it was a rifle and the stock and magazine tube were cut down and the carbine band fitted. Only a Winchester letter would show how it left the factory. Jim

June 9, 2014, 05:29 PM	#9
srit1111 Junior Member Join Date: June 8, 2014 Posts: 4	I am filling out an order form for a factory letter tonight. Let you know what I find out. As far as the finish I,'ve seen a lot of reblued guns and it doesn't look at all reblued when you have it in your hands.

June 9, 2014, 08:42 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It sure doesn't look original in the pictures. Jim

June 9, 2014, 11:13 PM	#11
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I have to go with Jim on this one. That gun looks like a definite reblue; Too shiny.

June 10, 2014, 11:59 AM	#12
DennisCA Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2012 Location: Union City CA (a.k.a. Poople's Republik of CA) Posts: 451	IMHO - Def looks like it had some work done on it, being that said it looks good. So my question is: When are you going to shoot it?

June 10, 2014, 05:20 PM	#13
srit1111 Junior Member Join Date: June 8, 2014 Posts: 4	Going to the farm to shoot this weekend if it doesn't rain. Take a another look at my picture of the barrel and magazine they are turning purple. Its hard to see in the picture.I didnt know reblue turns purple like real old original finish. Im no expert but I think it might not have been reblued.

June 10, 2014, 05:53 PM	#14
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Not an expert here either, but that butt plate looks like the ones on the 1894 Winchester commemoratives in the 1960s and 70s. Sure doesn't look like an original one.

June 10, 2014, 05:59 PM	#15
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	"Turning purple" is a classic result of a reblue. Steel that has a high nickel content will turn purple when reblued using bluing salts at normal bluing temps. In order to get a true blue, the gun must be flash blued at a higher temp which ruins the salts and makes them useless.

June 10, 2014, 06:03 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	Or of bluing at too high temperature.

June 10, 2014, 06:33 PM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	It is a cut down rifle with a carbine band added. It was probably reblued at the same time the work was done.