Proposed ATF Trust "Responsible Person" Form on .gov website - Page 2

Skans · September 22, 2014, 08:18 AM

O

Quote:

r it could be that someone, who legally owns an NFA item, just loses their temper or cool and uses the NFA item in a crime.

Even if someone was predisposed to violence, I still don't see them using a machine gun or legal silencer for this. These things are too valuable not to keep locked up in a safe. Also, silencers don't fit inside glove boxes so they aren't real practical for road ragers either.

torbjork · September 22, 2014, 11:14 AM

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...if silencers continue to become more and more common, it's more and more likely that some moron will eventually use one in a crime.

fwiw, in Norway, to the best of my knowledge there have been no convictions for crimes which involved silencers, despite these items being very popular and completely unregulated for many years now. There is some suspicion, especially among oldtimers, that poachers use them - but generally that's not too feasible either, as almost any round that is capable of bringing down a deer without a lot of fuss will create a very audible sonic crack even with the best silencers available.

Machineguntony · September 22, 2014, 11:45 PM

If you don't think bad things can happen, read this article. It appears 29 guns and 16 suppressors, some probably NFA machine guns, stolen from a dealer's trailer, along with 20,000 rounds of ammo. Just happened this Saturday.

Hopefully, they find those guns soon.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/c...shop/16038675/

This list of stolen items, below (see link below):

3 M16 type fully automatic rifles

2 full auto AK47s

A Beretta Auto Sear machine gun

A Century Arms machine gun

5 HK MP5 type sub-machine guns

A Century Arms Tantal machine gun

A full auto Thompson 1928A1 sub-machine gun

A full auto UZI sub-machine gun

An Ohio Ordinance 249 SAW belt fed full auto machine gun

Pistols include:

2 Ruger semi autos

A Beretta 92FS semi auto

2 Sig Sauer semi autos

2 Kimber semi auto handguns

An HK 45T semi auto pistol

There were two short barrelled rifles — one a Mosin 91/30 and the other a Vector Arms PTR-91P, two Remington 870 shotguns and one Savage Arms 720 shotgun.

Police say there were also 16 suppressors in the trailer along with approximately 20,000 rounds of mixed ammunition, a pallet jack, and $2,500 worth of miscellaneous magazines.

http://wishtv.com/2014/09/22/trailer...indy-business/

torbjork · September 23, 2014, 03:22 AM

Sure, guns and gear get stolen all the time. That much is certain. However, does that make the original owners responsible for crimes committed with the stolen items? Also, presumably things have been getting stolen ever since NFA took effect - how often have machine guns, SBRs, or silencers been used in crimes during all that time?

Most criminals still need to conceal their weapons. That means handguns for the most part, and attaching a can to one just makes it harder to conceal.

I'll reiterate my statement - despite large numbers of silencers for both long and short arms being sold freely here for years, nothing bad has happened.

When something becomes common, it becomes normal and accepted. If nobody had cars and someone today came upon the idea of putting a barely trained individual behind the controls of a 1,5 ton metal vehicle carrying a large tank of flammable liquid, traveling at 50mph inches from other such vehicles as well as unprotected pedestrians, people would recoil in horror and the concept would be banned in an instant. However, since cars have become common, they are accepted despite a heavy toll on society every year.

It helps of course that cars are genuinely useful, just like silencers.

Skans · September 23, 2014, 07:44 AM

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stolen from a dealer's trailer

Still, no one lawfully possessing a registered machine gun or silencer using it for a crime. How is stealing a silencer less criminal than simply making one?

Machineguntony · September 23, 2014, 05:24 PM

The culpability issue, from a criminal and civil legal standpoint, is separate from the social and political issues.

tepin · October 6, 2014, 11:43 PM

My guess is those that did a Trust and got their stamp you'll be all set. They cashed your check, signed the form and issued a stamp. Deal is done.

For those with pending forms... They might kick them back. Will be interesting to see.

September 22, 2014, 11:45 PM	#28
Machineguntony Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2013 Posts: 1,277	If you don't think bad things can happen, read this article. It appears 29 guns and 16 suppressors, some probably NFA machine guns, stolen from a dealer's trailer, along with 20,000 rounds of ammo. Just happened this Saturday. Hopefully, they find those guns soon. http://www.indystar.com/story/news/c...shop/16038675/ This list of stolen items, below (see link below): 3 M16 type fully automatic rifles 2 full auto AK47s A Beretta Auto Sear machine gun A Century Arms machine gun 5 HK MP5 type sub-machine guns A Century Arms Tantal machine gun A full auto Thompson 1928A1 sub-machine gun A full auto UZI sub-machine gun An Ohio Ordinance 249 SAW belt fed full auto machine gun Pistols include: 2 Ruger semi autos A Beretta 92FS semi auto 2 Sig Sauer semi autos 2 Kimber semi auto handguns An HK 45T semi auto pistol There were two short barrelled rifles — one a Mosin 91/30 and the other a Vector Arms PTR-91P, two Remington 870 shotguns and one Savage Arms 720 shotgun. Police say there were also 16 suppressors in the trailer along with approximately 20,000 rounds of mixed ammunition, a pallet jack, and $2,500 worth of miscellaneous magazines. http://wishtv.com/2014/09/22/trailer...indy-business/ __________________ Sent from Motorola DynaTac 8000x Last edited by Machineguntony; September 22, 2014 at 11:50 PM.

September 23, 2014, 05:24 PM	#31
Machineguntony Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2013 Posts: 1,277	The culpability issue, from a criminal and civil legal standpoint, is separate from the social and political issues. __________________ Sent from Motorola DynaTac 8000x

October 6, 2014, 11:43 PM	#32
tepin Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2006 Location: FL Posts: 129	My guess is those that did a Trust and got their stamp you'll be all set. They cashed your check, signed the form and issued a stamp. Deal is done. For those with pending forms... They might kick them back. Will be interesting to see. __________________ "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in Brown v. United States, 256 U.S. 335, 343 (16 May 1921).

September 23, 2014, 03:22 AM	#29
torbjork Member Join Date: May 7, 2013 Posts: 25	Sure, guns and gear get stolen all the time. That much is certain. However, does that make the original owners responsible for crimes committed with the stolen items? Also, presumably things have been getting stolen ever since NFA took effect - how often have machine guns, SBRs, or silencers been used in crimes during all that time? Most criminals still need to conceal their weapons. That means handguns for the most part, and attaching a can to one just makes it harder to conceal. I'll reiterate my statement - despite large numbers of silencers for both long and short arms being sold freely here for years, nothing bad has happened. When something becomes common, it becomes normal and accepted. If nobody had cars and someone today came upon the idea of putting a barely trained individual behind the controls of a 1,5 ton metal vehicle carrying a large tank of flammable liquid, traveling at 50mph inches from other such vehicles as well as unprotected pedestrians, people would recoil in horror and the concept would be banned in an instant. However, since cars have become common, they are accepted despite a heavy toll on society every year. It helps of course that cars are genuinely useful, just like silencers.