Need HELP! [Semi-auto] Tommy Gun damaged and needs repair

gearchecker · July 14, 2015, 02:20 PM

I have a West Hurley manufactured 1927-A1 Tommy Gun. It was built in 1977 and has a 4 digit serial number.
Last week I was at the range and shot it. Teh bolt is now jammed up tighter than a tick.
I was able to recover the casing after the shot and the primer is blown open on 1/2 of the face. I thought it might have been a hole punched thru by my firing pin, but the primer indentation is normal. I took it to my gunsmith and after two days of trying he can't get the rifle apart to repair it. He sent it to Kahr, but I just talked to them and they're going to refuse it and send it right back to my gunsmith unrepaired. Kahr will only work on guns they manufactured.
I've been in contact with the ammo manufacturer and they need me to send the offending cartridge, and the rest of the ammo from the box to them for analysis. It sounds like CCI will probably pay for the repair if the issue was caused by their ammo.

Here's where I need the help.
Does anybody here know of a gunsmith that is qualified to work on this rifle? If yes, please send me their information so I can talk to them about this issue and see if they can help. I don't want to have it gone for 6 months or more so if the gunsmith can't deliver in a shorter timeframe than that, I'd rather not consider them.

All the help you can give me will be greatly appreciated.

Photos of the cartridge below!

Regards,
Gregory

skizzums · July 14, 2015, 02:37 PM

the bolt jammed to the rear? do you have a pic of the stuck action by chance?

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 14, 2015, 03:20 PM

Can you not separate the upper frame from the lower trigger housing? Even with the bolt stuck to the rear, after you push the takedown pin in, you should be able to push the trigger in, so the sear will drop down to clear the bolt, and I would think the lower should slide past it, until it stops at the rear. There, you have to use a screwdriver, from above, to mash the pin in again, so the two will finish separating.

You also may try holding the trigger in, and tapping the bolt handle forward with a plastic faced hammer, to see if that will break it loose.

Here is a video on the takedown of the 1927 A1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NblrrAPCiK0

gearchecker · July 14, 2015, 08:36 PM

When it jammed up I tried to get the bolt free, but after a while I gave up. I took it to my gunsmith and he can't get it torn down. He sent it to Kahr, but they're not going to work on it after all. They told me today that it was built before they took over the company, and they're not going to work on it at all. So, it'll get shipped back to me shortly.

The bolt is open about 1.5" from the chamber face. It's locked up tight.
I didn't try to tear it down, figuring I'd probably do more harm than good.
So until it get's back to me all I can do is look for a gunsmith willing to give it a try to get it taken down, figure out what's wrong with it, and get it fixed.

Like I said before it looks like CCI/ATI will pay for the repairs once they determine the failure was caused by the ammo.

Dixie Gunsmithing · July 15, 2015, 06:46 AM

Let me ask, will the bolt go backwards from where it is?

If the firing pins tip was welded to the bolt, or fouled from the ruptured primer, then the bolt could be stopped from going all the way forward, when it gets to the point where the sear will catch the firing pin. If that is the case, then depressing the trigger may not release it, since the sear hasn't reset itself for semi-auto through the disconnector. However, if you can still pull the bolt back, you may still be able disassemble it as normal.

It is possible that they may have to buy a bolt and firing pin, if the bolt face is damaged, unless it can be easily cleaned up.

My guess is, you may want to call Numrich, as I was thinking that they were involved in making those before the Moonies bought them out. Did Kahr volunteer to tell you who to send it too? If CCI will pay, they may have a shop they want you to use.

skizzums · July 15, 2015, 01:15 PM

YES^^^^

get your rifle back and continue talks with CCI. they will not take kindly to accepting damages on a gun that has been taken apart and/reworked. let them have a shop of their choosing inspect the gun and make the call. they may just have you ship directly to them to let their experts inspect the firearm. either way, i wouldn't do ANYTHING else until further communications with the guys who are supposedly going to be paying for all this. may be a long process, but they are a big company and will likely make it right in the end. give them time to do their thing

good luck, i would love to hear about how CCI handles this. it's not common to hear of new manufacture bullets causing catastrophic failure outside of a squib round. very coomon to hear it from "re"-manufacturers of ammo

p.s. don't send a gun to an ammo manufacturer w/o taking off any aftermarket stuff you want back, lots of people gripe about disappearing sights, etc.

James K · July 15, 2015, 01:29 PM

My opinion, FWIW, is that the ammo is not the problem; it looks like the gun fired out of battery and with the bolt not fully supporting the primer, it blew out with the gas slamming the bolt back hard enough that some damage was done. Since that is not an SMG, it fires from a closed bolt and has a separate firing pin.

I have no suggestions on getting the gun apart but Dixie Gunsmithing has some good ideas.

Jim

Dfariswheel · July 16, 2015, 08:50 PM

One common issue with the semi-auto Thompson is the odd ball "dog leg" firing pin.

These have been known to break, and when they do, the rifle cannot be easily disassembled.
In fact, many gunsmiths can't get it apart quickly so they give up.
Often, the broken pin causes damage to the fired case similar to the one in the picture.

As for disassembly, the one I personally operated on was just a matter of taking plenty of time and working things around until I could get the receivers apart.
Since it belonged to a relative time was not an issue......to him. It was to me but......

Probably your best option for repairs is Tommygunner:

http://www.tommygunner.com/pages/services/index.htm

James K · July 16, 2015, 08:58 PM

A broken firing pin stuck in the forward position would definitely cause the condition as shown. Now, why the gun can't be disassembled is another question.

Jim

July 14, 2015, 02:20 PM	#1
gearchecker Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: North IDAHO, Big Bear Country Posts: 466	Need HELP! [Semi-auto] Tommy Gun damaged and needs repair I have a West Hurley manufactured 1927-A1 Tommy Gun. It was built in 1977 and has a 4 digit serial number. Last week I was at the range and shot it. Teh bolt is now jammed up tighter than a tick. I was able to recover the casing after the shot and the primer is blown open on 1/2 of the face. I thought it might have been a hole punched thru by my firing pin, but the primer indentation is normal. I took it to my gunsmith and after two days of trying he can't get the rifle apart to repair it. He sent it to Kahr, but I just talked to them and they're going to refuse it and send it right back to my gunsmith unrepaired. Kahr will only work on guns they manufactured. I've been in contact with the ammo manufacturer and they need me to send the offending cartridge, and the rest of the ammo from the box to them for analysis. It sounds like CCI will probably pay for the repair if the issue was caused by their ammo. Here's where I need the help. Does anybody here know of a gunsmith that is qualified to work on this rifle? If yes, please send me their information so I can talk to them about this issue and see if they can help. I don't want to have it gone for 6 months or more so if the gunsmith can't deliver in a shorter timeframe than that, I'd rather not consider them. All the help you can give me will be greatly appreciated. Photos of the cartridge below! Regards, Gregory __________________ When the time comes that I don't want a new gun, Call the undertaker! My firearm is an investment on my life. http://www.takdriver.com http://www.corneredcat.com

July 14, 2015, 02:37 PM	#2
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	the bolt jammed to the rear? do you have a pic of the stuck action by chance? __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

July 14, 2015, 08:36 PM	#4
gearchecker Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: North IDAHO, Big Bear Country Posts: 466	When it jammed up I tried to get the bolt free, but after a while I gave up. I took it to my gunsmith and he can't get it torn down. He sent it to Kahr, but they're not going to work on it after all. They told me today that it was built before they took over the company, and they're not going to work on it at all. So, it'll get shipped back to me shortly. The bolt is open about 1.5" from the chamber face. It's locked up tight. I didn't try to tear it down, figuring I'd probably do more harm than good. So until it get's back to me all I can do is look for a gunsmith willing to give it a try to get it taken down, figure out what's wrong with it, and get it fixed. Like I said before it looks like CCI/ATI will pay for the repairs once they determine the failure was caused by the ammo. __________________ When the time comes that I don't want a new gun, Call the undertaker! My firearm is an investment on my life. http://www.takdriver.com http://www.corneredcat.com

July 15, 2015, 01:15 PM	#6
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	YES^^^^ get your rifle back and continue talks with CCI. they will not take kindly to accepting damages on a gun that has been taken apart and/reworked. let them have a shop of their choosing inspect the gun and make the call. they may just have you ship directly to them to let their experts inspect the firearm. either way, i wouldn't do ANYTHING else until further communications with the guys who are supposedly going to be paying for all this. may be a long process, but they are a big company and will likely make it right in the end. give them time to do their thing good luck, i would love to hear about how CCI handles this. it's not common to hear of new manufacture bullets causing catastrophic failure outside of a squib round. very coomon to hear it from "re"-manufacturers of ammo p.s. don't send a gun to an ammo manufacturer w/o taking off any aftermarket stuff you want back, lots of people gripe about disappearing sights, etc. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

July 14, 2015, 03:20 PM	#3
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Can you not separate the upper frame from the lower trigger housing? Even with the bolt stuck to the rear, after you push the takedown pin in, you should be able to push the trigger in, so the sear will drop down to clear the bolt, and I would think the lower should slide past it, until it stops at the rear. There, you have to use a screwdriver, from above, to mash the pin in again, so the two will finish separating. You also may try holding the trigger in, and tapping the bolt handle forward with a plastic faced hammer, to see if that will break it loose. Here is a video on the takedown of the 1927 A1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NblrrAPCiK0

July 15, 2015, 06:46 AM	#5
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Let me ask, will the bolt go backwards from where it is? If the firing pins tip was welded to the bolt, or fouled from the ruptured primer, then the bolt could be stopped from going all the way forward, when it gets to the point where the sear will catch the firing pin. If that is the case, then depressing the trigger may not release it, since the sear hasn't reset itself for semi-auto through the disconnector. However, if you can still pull the bolt back, you may still be able disassemble it as normal. It is possible that they may have to buy a bolt and firing pin, if the bolt face is damaged, unless it can be easily cleaned up. My guess is, you may want to call Numrich, as I was thinking that they were involved in making those before the Moonies bought them out. Did Kahr volunteer to tell you who to send it too? If CCI will pay, they may have a shop they want you to use.

July 15, 2015, 01:29 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	My opinion, FWIW, is that the ammo is not the problem; it looks like the gun fired out of battery and with the bolt not fully supporting the primer, it blew out with the gas slamming the bolt back hard enough that some damage was done. Since that is not an SMG, it fires from a closed bolt and has a separate firing pin. I have no suggestions on getting the gun apart but Dixie Gunsmithing has some good ideas. Jim

July 16, 2015, 08:50 PM	#8
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	One common issue with the semi-auto Thompson is the odd ball "dog leg" firing pin. These have been known to break, and when they do, the rifle cannot be easily disassembled. In fact, many gunsmiths can't get it apart quickly so they give up. Often, the broken pin causes damage to the fired case similar to the one in the picture. As for disassembly, the one I personally operated on was just a matter of taking plenty of time and working things around until I could get the receivers apart. Since it belonged to a relative time was not an issue......to him. It was to me but...... Probably your best option for repairs is Tommygunner: http://www.tommygunner.com/pages/services/index.htm

July 16, 2015, 08:58 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A broken firing pin stuck in the forward position would definitely cause the condition as shown. Now, why the gun can't be disassembled is another question. Jim