Where do you draw the line?

[BlackFeather]

Regardless of their training, they see violence more often than most of us. This means they are less likely to hesitate, they are able to handle the stress better, and they are likely going to do what worked last time. I know that they do target shooting, and even practice room clearing. My cousins have all told me about their shootings in parties, and in other peoples houses after disputes. The likelyhood that they will use any of it against a civilian is small, considering they train for other gangs, and police.

I've never trained anyone in knife use that I knew would use it for anything illegal. I HAVE taught them defense against weapons, and even disarming them. Everyone has a right to learn how to defend themselves.

[Glenn Dee]

In my experience...

Most bad guys want nothing to do with a firearm.

Those who do tend to be professionals. Bad guys read gun magazines. Bad guys practice shooting regularly. Bad guys use their own version of tactics. Bad guys know and understand the value of various firearms. Bad guys practice and perfect their tactics.

I wouldnt underestimate a bad guy who's trying to hold me up with a lorcin as being unprofessional based on the quality of the gun. He may very well be using a cheap gun, for the throw away quality if he's chased by the police. Then save his Glock for saturday night when he might need a gun to defend himself against another bad guy.

Never underestimate the ability, or tenacity of a criminal.

Spuk!

[WildBill45]

Seriously, how many read all of this post, and gathered the meaning of it?

I read it all, and understand it thank you! I think it is good stuff. There are also some military folks who were gang-bangers before going in, and even some cops who did the same ... LAPD is notorious for that! Nothing like a war vet gang-banger with war experience ... not a pretty sight! Luckily they are the rare ones, not the majority.

You, the good guys reading this, you bad guys can kiss a goat, need to keep your skill sets above reproach, and at very high levels. Cops do this more, as they get free ammo in most cases to train ... it is civilians who have to put out the extra effort to train, as times are hard and money scarce!

For example, a guy in Minnesota shot a bad guy who robbed a woman, and pistol whipped her. The media tried to take him down, and supported the poo felon, but the DA did not prosecute him and gave him a commendation.

Here is a link to a local Minnesota talk show host telling more details about the media attacks on this gun owner for defending himself:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18188...edium=18188171

The bad guy apparently pulled a gun and approached the good guy who only asked the dirtbag to give the lady's purse back. It didn't work out well for the bad guy!

It would have been smarter to not do that, but sometimes one must take a stand in this country, and I guess on this day, this is what the good guy did.

There are many, many, scenarios that go on everyday that never get reported. People use their CCW to discourage folks, and they just disengage and go about their business ... no cops called. Sometimes there is no other option but to defend yourself, although rare, it does happen, and all that training pays for itself. Lets hope we never have to get involved off duty or by civilian action ... but if you do, you need to be good, and be right or the media will attack you, not the bad guys!!!

[Ruark]

This thread has some good reasons why, after you get your CHL, it's important to get further training in using a handgun for self defense. So many people get a CHL and a holster and start walking around armed, with maybe 5 minutes of practice in actually drawing their weapon (in the bedroom, most likely).

A good gun defense class teaches actual gunfighting techniques. Stances. How to draw and fire QUICKLY, especially when your gun is inside your waistband, under a zipped winter coat. How to clear a jam instantly. How to turn and fire 90 degrees to the left or right, or 180 degrees to the rear. How to fire with your other hand. How to shoot while running, and again to the front, left and right, and how to reload while you're doing it. You get the picture. Getting a CHL is really just the beginning, like passing the written test in Driver's Ed before actually driving the car.

[BlueTrain]

It's said that driver's ed is a waste because we have already formed our habits from sitting beside our parents in the car for the previous years of our life. You don't get that much behind the wheel experience in driver's ed, either. There may be something similiar at work with handguns, too, seeing as how they are featured in so many movies and TV shows that we watch.

While conditions vary widely (and wildly), some experience in the field (as opposed to in the bedroom, even if that's where it's most likely to be used) will quickly show that many of the issues that are brought up in various threads here become non-issues and other factors begin to loom very large. I found this to be true even when you have been shooting a lot at an indoor range.

But when I say "in the field," I mean that literally, or at least, "in the woods." I don't carry a gun around the house and anyway, because one's home is such a dangerous place, I stay away as much as possible.

At any rate, I will agree that drawing is a critical thing anywhere, no matter how the handgun is carried. I don't think pure speed is as important as smoothness and I admit, that's a tricky point to get across. But I'm not really speaking of "street tactics" at all; I really mean in the woods. So running is probably out, at least anywhere I've ever been and even more so at my age. The biggest difference in the conditions I'm describing is the range. At an indoor range, 75 feet is a long distance. Outside, it's a stone's throw away and in fact, at my house, that's the measured distance from my basement door to the path going into the woods, where the deer and the foxes are.

In comparison, I don't think other factors are all that important.

[Wyosmith]

In the study of history you will find that EVERY time a society breaks down and becomes violent, the worst violators of the people’s rights are ALWAYS the “cops”.
Now that may make some ex-cops mad and some current cops madder, but it's historically true, and if we look at the abuse of power and the worst atrocities in US history, ALL of them have been the work, or had the involvement of the government (i.e. “cops”) State federal and local.

ALL law enforcement personal are taking orders from politicians. That’s a fact, not an opinion. It’s always been that way in all of history.

Who enforces the BATF’s codes?
Who enforces the tax codes?
Who enforces the FCCs codes? (Cover-ups all over the nation.)
Who enforces the overt destruction of the Constitution in ALL instances?
Who kicks in doors and kills the wrong people?
Who rounded up the Jews in Germany?
Who rounded up the Christians in Rome?
Who rounded up the Christians in Albania and Greece?
Who committed genocide in nearly every country in history?
Who will enforce the agenda 21 that is coming?
Who will enforce Obama care?

“COPS”!

(In those countries where the military and the cops are one in the same, as it was in England and America in 1775 I lump them together. But the principal is still the same.

These laws are enforced by men who turn against their own people because a politician tells them to, and they hide behind the excuse of “I was only following orders”

So why would we be concerned that the wrong "bad guys" will learn tactics when the wrong bad guys ARE learning at taxpayers expense now? I am not saying cops should not be trained. What I am saying and what 99% of all cops seem to forget is that they are public SERVANTS, not masters.
If you think that you would be in too much danger I have to point out the FACT that more electricians, plumbers, and truck drivers get killed on their jobs then cops every year.

A friend of mine who is on one of the largest SWAT teams in the western US showed me something I think is interesting. Did you know that more truck drivers died doing their jobs in California alone, in 2007, than ALL the cops killed in the line of duty in ALL of the USA combined in the preceding 10 YEARS?

If a cop thinks he's entitled to be made safer by destroying the very constitution he's sworn an oath to protect, I say he's in the wrong job. He should quit and go drive a truck.

Before you all attack me, I will tell you I was a cop myself, and I was a military man for many years. I was good at the jobs and had the complements of my superiors in both professions.
My 3 best friends in the world are all cops. Two of them are also an ex-Marines.

Most cops are not evil. Most are not hateful. Most are not dedicated to the destruction of their own country and do care about their own kids future.

But if we look at percentages, I’d bet that about 10% of all law enforcement personal ARE evil. In my experience about 1 in 10 loves to harm people and harass them and abuse their power.
Now what if I am 2X too high in my estimate? What if it was only 5%?
I need to ask a question:
If you know, lets say, 100 “cops”, and 5 are real bad, and you know, lets say 500 people that are not cops. Of the 500 that are not cops, how many do you think would probably come to you an try to bully you with weapons?
How many of the 5% would?

ALL of the 5% will if they have opportunity. Right?

If Obama care is passed and enforced, those 5% will do what they are told, and they don’t care about the future of this country at all. It’s just fun at the time for them. Same with them that are trying to shut down organic farms and close down churches, as well as those that arrest folks in the southern states for resisting the Mexican envision.

How many cops in Illinois will arrest a Norman citizen because Illinois has overtly un-constitutional laws about “regulations” on guns that are diametrically opposed to the idea of “shall not be INFRENGED”?

An infringement is not always just confiscation, but it’s to render the intent of that law useless in the face of government. No F.O.I.D. card? You are under arrest t there huh? “Cops” do that. And they don’t know OR CARE that they are in violation of their own oath.,


Of the 500 citizens that are not cops, how many will harass you and “kick in your door” or take your liberty because you don’t agree and support open treason?

None! Right?

So who is the truly dangerous group here?

Look at history and think.

[BlueTrain]

I don't think any of those instances you've mentioned are examples of when society breaks down and becomes violent. During the Hitler era, for example, beginning with his election, there was no social breakdown. The people by and large supported Hitler. But the police did have greater and greater power and the control of the police gradually shifted into the hands of one man. However, you are certainly correct that the police take their orders from politicians, those who have either been appointed or elected to office. Come to think of it, isn't that the way it's supposed to work? I realize there are some sheriffs here and there that take orders from no one but they are the exceptions.

On the other hand, I suppose you could have a society that is actually quite violent, yet has not exactly had a breakdown in order. I might even go so far to say that societies in which there has been a real breakdown in social order and have some degree of everyday violence probably have no police worth the name anyway. Do you suppose the police in Somalia are an efficient force?

Or are you saying we'd all be better off without the police?

[Wyosmith]

No BlueTrain, I am not suggesting that at all
What I would suggest (if I had any influence) is that all sworn law enforcement officers should have to graduate law school before they could be a cop. Why would I say that?

Let’s look again at facts.

If you want to be a medical doctor you must get good grades in high-school and then get top marks in college before being accepted to a per-med program. That is a total of about 6 years.
Next you have to go to medical school and again get good grades. That will be another 6 years.
Now we are at 12 years.
Next you need to do an internship that will last another 2 years at least.
So now we are at 14 years of schooling and on the job training BEFORE you can make judgment calls that effect other peoples lives.

However a cop can go to P.O.S.T. and in some states that’s as little as 5 weeks and he’s given a gun and thrown out to make life and death decisions in less then 2 months.

THAT’S NOT THE "COPS" FAULT, but it does show the unbalanced way out system is set up.

Doctors are not going to overthrow the freedoms of an entire nation.
But cops sure will if left unrestrained and if you think not, you know NOTHING of history If you know your history you will know that in most countries the “high law” was no barrier to any despot as long as his “cops” would support him Rome. Greece. Carthage. Germany. Spain, Cuba. ALL had laws that made the actions of their dictators and their follower’s illegal, but that doesn’t matter if the people are powerless to stop the police.

[8MM Mauser]

5 weeks? I went to school for 2 years to try and become a cop, in Michigan you have to be licensed as well. Of course there are no jobs...
If you had to have a law degree cops would not exist, since you would make way more on that degree being a lawyer... Or cops pay would make them too expensive...
You aren't entirely wrong from a historical perspective but do you really think that is where America is at? If so, why?
You seem to he very angry, I hope you can calm down and be a bit more rational, then tell me why you think what you think? I would truthfully like to know.

[BlueTrain]

I understand what you're saying, Wyosmith, but I am saying that instances of social breakdown are actually rare and under those few and brief circumstances, the police are practically non-existant, which is why there is a breakdown in social order to begin with. Actually, I think this discussion only has meaning within the context of the last two hundred years. Anyway, it is also a case of the chicken and the egg: which came first. The lack of an effective police force or the breakdown in social order.

When the police forces "turn against the people," that is a misleading way to put it. Generally speaking, most people always support the government, which is not to say they necessarily support the party in power, if it works that way. But the last thing most people want is no government, which results in a real breakdown in social order. When dictators take over a country and power is centralized, one of the first things they do is deal with any one who has other ideas. After the American Revolution, anyone who didn't like the new social order pretty much had to leave, although some just went further west.

Half the people are barely affected in any way by any government any where anyway (a slight exaggeration).

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't worry about the bad guys coming on the forums and learning things. They really aren't learning anything here that they can't get anywhere else and knowledge about some tactics isn't anything like actually becoming skilled and practiced.

WildBill45, if you need something to worry about, I suggest you worry about the bad guys who received training from Uncle Sam first or members of law enforcement who turned to the dark side and become bad guys. These are the scary bad guys, not the ones who still get a large amount of their gun skiills and tactics from homeys on TV.

[Glenn Dee]

LOL Being a cop is bad enough... now you want me to be a lawyer too?...lol

[Bubba in c.a.]

In a country where the chief law enforcement officers run guns to drug cartels in 3 countries, it's real noble to think about the possibility that crooks might read a book....

Reality is that crooks give each other training in prison, gangs teach their brighter members and are even infiltrating the military and police, and some terrorists have better training camps than your local PB.

Prepare you and yours--you have no control over the crooks.

[lawnboy]

I think lumping criminals into one category is kind of simplistic. Sure, some are mouth breathers who can't think, plan or prepare in any way. This only stands to reason since a percentage of the population, criminal or not, is composed of mouth breathers.

But some criminals are analytical. When confronted with a problem they immediately start working out scenarios, discarding those that are unworkable and narrowing down the possibilities to ones that will achieve the goal. Some criminals are prodigies. Some master difficult technical fields.

True, you probably aren't going to be carjacked or held up at the ATM by one of these fully developed, skilled criminals. But they started somewhere before they mastered their chosen field. Perhaps carjacking suburbanites or holding up housewives at the ATM was their first criminal activity. Talent is talent, and talent will sometimes beat training.

So don't underestimate your adversary. He may be the future Napoleon, Achilles, Justin Verlander or Leonard Susskind of criminals.

[WildBill45]

WildBill45, if you need something to worry about, I suggest you worry about the bad guys who received training from Uncle Sam first or members of law enforcement who turned to the dark side and become bad guys. These are the scary bad guys, not the ones who still get a large amount of their gun skiills and tactics from homeys on TV.

This is a given, but, and there always is a but in life, the wanna-bes, and purely dumb ones are still very dangerous, and it is these folks that will benefit from too much "REAL" information they would have never considered before seeing or reading such on public forums.

The elite, those who posses speed and top shelf skill sets can match up with anyone ... it is the novice, rookie, and over confident citizen with a gun that concerns me. They will fall prey quicker to all the above, as most students these days "DO NOT" train on their own once they leave whatever place of learning they attended.

Lesson learned folks: NEVER, EVER, quit training!!! Stay safe!

PS: if you are a bad guy, may you leave this planet sooner than planned!

[JohnKSa]

I think lumping criminals into one category is kind of simplistic.

This.

There aren't a lot of smart criminals, because smart people can figure out how to make money without the danger of getting killed or incarcerated, but there are some.

Smart criminals don't usually get caught. An LEO I know once commented that there were definitely criminals operating in the jurisdiction that they were aware of (via MO and committed crimes) that the all officers in the department knew they would never catch.

The problem is that studies on criminals are usually based on criminals that have been apprehended/convicted/imprisoned. That tends to bias the study results toward the "dumb criminal" side of the book. It's a mistake to fall into the trap of believing they're all dumb.

[ltc444]

KraigWY Like your comment on EOD Technique. As and ex 55D ARMY I was disturbed by the NY announce and demo of the IED used by their latest arrest.

The gangs have shown that they have stratigic thinking. Some have required members to forgo the traditional tattoos in order for them to enter the military, Marines and Army, in order to obtain the unique skill sets of certain MOSs. The effect of this was demonstrated some years back, I believe in San Diego, when an exmarine gangbanger excuted an ambush on two police officers.

Viedo games, as demonstrated in the Padoka KY school shootings, are outstanding training tools for shooting. The shooter had never fired a weapon prior to the shooting. Despite this lack of actual shooting, he did a lot of damage.

The gangs are tough, smart, and motivated. If they arn't they are dead.

The stereo type of crooks being lazy and stupid is for the most part a stero type.

As every one of my instructors and mentors has said, "shooting is 10 percent physcial and 90% mental.

In any situation the will to survive is the key to survival.