October 17, 2014, 08:55 AM | #1 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
I need to cure a flinch.
I have a flinch. There. I've said it. I have it, and I need to fix it. According to the guys I shoot with (LEO firearms trainers), I have a flinch in which I "push over the top" just before the Moment of Bang, causing me to shoot low.
I know that dry-firing is often named as one of the possible remedies for a flinch. I've got snapcaps, and intend to start doing more dry-firing. (Given that I live in an apartment with a wife and child, and have very close neighbors, I'm extremely cautious, perhaps even hesitant, to engage in any more gun handling than is absolutely necessary at home.) I'm also considering getting a .22 conversion kit for my G19, and using that. (Yes, I'm aware of the .22 shortage, but don't worry about that.) I'm thinking that if I shoot enough low-recoil rounds, in addition to some work with the snapcaps, I might be able to cure myself of this. Does anyone have any insight as to whether this is an effective plan? Thanks in advance, Spats
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
October 17, 2014, 09:01 AM | #2 |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
This may be a rather half baked thought, but it seems to me that if I strive for speed and put less emphasis on precision, I am less apt to flinch as often and to have trouble with a heavy trigger pull.
|
October 17, 2014, 09:08 AM | #3 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
I'm not entirely sure, but I think I also flinch less in rapid fire than slow fire. I don't think anything I should could really be characterized as a "heavy" trigger pull, though. Maybe 5.5 lbs.? That's what I ordered on my G19, and I don't have anything else that makes me go "Hmm. That seems heavy."
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
October 17, 2014, 09:18 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Ft.Worth, Texas
Posts: 1,522
|
Just my 2 cents but heavy trigger pull may be an issue in the gun.
Some times a gun needs a lighter trigger to work well for a particular shooter. I had a pistol once I had the same issue with and lightened the trigger and that solved the problem. It can down to the shape of the trigger and frame / grip and where my finger naturally hit the trigger. The lighter trigger required less force to squeeze and I stopped trying to squeeze the grip toward the trigger this stopped dropping the barrel of the gun. (hope that makes sense)
__________________
Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW |
October 17, 2014, 09:43 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 637
|
Instead of the .22 kit, maybe try a quality blowback BB gun pistol.
Excellent for high volume, low cost shooting in urban environments. I shoot indoors into a cardboard box stuffed with rags as a backstop. I can not practice shooting on the move, low light training, holster work, etc. at my public ranges. I can with a BB gun in semi-urban local woods where laws permit. Sig and other big names make 1:1 replicas for training purposes. SW puts out a respectable $200 586. Glock sues replica makers and doesn't produce one themselves.
__________________
Maintaining a constant state of cat-like readiness and a heightened state of suspicious alertness. |
October 17, 2014, 09:51 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,730
|
Have someone get the firearm ready for you to shoot while you dont look. Have them leave the chamber empty every couple shots. Works better with a revolver, but may help with an auto.
|
October 17, 2014, 10:29 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 18, 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,320
|
Quote:
__________________
Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman |
|
October 17, 2014, 10:56 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
I think dry firing is a good thing. I still do it every day. You focus on the basics (if youre seeing the front sight move here, you have other issues), and you can use that to your advantage, when you are shooting, if you feel the flinch thing coming on. Just go into "dry fire mode", and tell yourself thats what youre doing, and focus on the sights, and only the sights until the shot breaks.
Mix a few of your snap caps into the mag/cylinder as you reload, and it will show you whats going on, and help you practice it. One thing I usually have new shooters do right off is, with a proper grip and stance, hold the gun at just below eye level, and pointing it at a close silhouette target with no aiming point, squeeze off a mag or two, and have them watch the gun as it fires, not the target or sights. It lets them see whats going on, that the gun isnt going to hurt them due to recoil, noise, blast, etc., and helps alleviate any fear of the gun. This is really the only time I suggest thinking about the trigger too. Seems to have worked pretty well so far. Once they realize its not a big deal, they can focus on the important stuff. |
October 17, 2014, 11:02 AM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 637
|
Quote:
They are as loud as a .22 rifle (110 Db or so). They offer more realism then you are giving them credit for.
__________________
Maintaining a constant state of cat-like readiness and a heightened state of suspicious alertness. Last edited by Vt.birdhunter; October 17, 2014 at 01:50 PM. |
|
October 17, 2014, 11:16 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
|
Dry fire, ball-and-dummy practice, and working with a .22 are all good. When shooting the .22, really focus on follow-through, and concentrate on that when you go back to the larger caliber. For me, at least, there's something about concentrating my mind on what happens after the shot that seems to help with flinching.
I think the .22 conversion kit is a good plan, BTW.
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. |
October 17, 2014, 03:20 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 3, 2013
Location: Western New York
Posts: 454
|
Randomly place two to four snapcaps along with live ammo in a magazine. Fire those off and you will catch yourself flinching when the gun doesn't go "bang." Actually catching yourself doing it and what it feels like is a good step to curing yourself. With live rounds press the trigger very slowly to see if you are anticipating the bang. You don't say how long or how much you've been shooting, but shooting a lot helps cure it.
Also, a flinch is not the only thing that makes you shoot low. If you dry fire and watch the front sight you will see just how much it moves when you pull the trigger even when not cocked. |
October 17, 2014, 06:29 PM | #12 | |||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Quote:
Let's have a short review of first principles.
Quote:
But I still think it's best to, as I've described above, start slow. The focus on the front sight helps occupy the mind, so you're not thinking about the trigger press or the shot breaking. And be smooth -- a steadily increasing pressure on the trigger for as much time or as little time as necessary until the shot breaks. Think: front sight; press; surprise.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|||
October 17, 2014, 09:22 PM | #13 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
The oldest pistol shooting advice is still the simplest: Concentrate on the sights and squeeze the trigger.
Flinching comes from anticipating the shot/recoil. If you aren't sure when the shot is going to go, you can't anticipate it. Jim |
October 17, 2014, 11:25 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 11, 2012
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
Posts: 169
|
I had my brother at the outdoor range load my magazines for me with snap caps and live rounds while I wasn't looking, then load and ready the gun for me. If you do this you will not know when you will break a shot if you just tell yourself all your partner did was just load dummies (which he should do as well). You should do this until you focus on only the sights and trigger control. Then you will have conditioned your mind and muscle memory that there is no need to anticipate the shot and it will happen as it happens.
9miller |
October 18, 2014, 07:18 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
|
Another vote for a blowback airgun.
They are excellent training tools that can be used anywhere. And they do recoil enough to provide a sense of realism. Anyone who still thinks of airguns as useless toys hasn't actually tried the new generation versions.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” |
October 18, 2014, 07:54 AM | #16 |
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,831
|
Get a double action revolver. Ball 'n dummy. Use the trigger in only the long DA mode.
If you have nothing but snap caps, put a coin on the top strap/front sight rib. While working the DA trigger, keep the sight on the target and the coin on the top strap/front sight rib.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! |
October 18, 2014, 09:25 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 4,307
|
The "right" answer is probably in there somewhere, but first, you need to know what "kind" of flinch you have and also, why "style" of shooting you are working on.
Types of flinch: 1. Jerking the trigger. Either long pull, heavy pull or poor ergonomics and "speed" will cause a jerk. This should be relativley repeatable, but will still degrade accuracy. If it is the trigger, slowing down should fix it...or changing the trigger...or fixing your trigger press. If it is ergonomics, where your trigger finger is not square on the trigger and close to perpendicular, you need to address that with fit. Also, if the middle in inner trigger finger pads are contacting the frame or trigger guard, this can also result in a flinch. 2. The noise or recoil is producing the predictable physiological startled effect. If it is noise, then double plugging and shooting some magazine dumps as fast as possible first and last of every range session. If it is recoil induced, yes dry-fire and or a .22 with 10K trigger presses or more will typically cure it, but it needs maintenance. 3. Trained muscle memory due to shooting one platform. Some of the top pistol shooters (speed sports) have a natural flinch that is trained. Their grip, trigger control and sight picture are a system they have tuned, through 10s of thousands of rounds, to keep the sights on target at speeds under 0.10 seconds. Knowing WHY you flinch is the most important part of curing the flinch. |
October 18, 2014, 03:03 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
A 5.5 pound trigger may or may not be "heavy". Smooth is far more important than light anyway. Mind you, every new firearm requires a trigger job due to frivolous law suits.
"...non-existent recoil of an Airsoft gun..." Airsoft guns are toys that having nothing whatever to do with a real firearms. Air pistols can be toys too, but not like Airsoft. A good air pistol can make a huge difference. Mind you, like MarkCO says, a lot depends on the kind of flinch and what's causing it.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
October 18, 2014, 05:43 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2010
Posts: 403
|
As others have previously stated "ball and dummy".
If you don't reload have a friend make you up 8-10 rounds with no powder or primers. If your mags take 15 rounds each for example place 13 live rounds and 2 dummies in a bag and load the mag without looking where the dummy rounds are. This will help you with your flinch and malfunction drills at the same time. |
October 18, 2014, 06:13 PM | #20 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Quote:
In our experience, over quite a few years and many students, Airsoft appropriately used is a very useful teaching tool.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 18, 2014 at 07:09 PM. |
||
October 18, 2014, 06:59 PM | #21 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
October 18, 2014, 07:01 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,283
|
IMO:
Ball and dummy is really useful to convince someone they have a flinch or accept your flinch;going from unconscious to conscious incompetence. It might be useful as a pop quiz to measure progress.I'm not sure it cures.Its a step. For a long time my "do everything" handgun was a RSB .44 Mag. I developed two bad habits. 1)Recovering from recoil starting at the trigger break.I was dropping the muzzle during lock time and ignition. 2)Its fun to see the can jump!!I can't do that with a darn recoiling 44 in front of my eye,so my focus would shift to the target. For me:Focus on calling each shot.Unless you see the sight pic on the target until recoil moves the gun,you flinched. If you can hold the focus on the sight and call the shot,you did not flinch. The tool for the cure...the "perfect practice" Frank mentions,is sight picture focus and follow through. Now,to get past shifting to target focus at the shot,to see target reaction..paper is a non reactive target.Its one tool.Shoot a shot,call it,look with a spotting scope if required.Training muscles to do it right one shot at a time.Rapid accurate fire is being good at recovering the sights and shooting one shot at a time quickly.I'll modify that a bit.Up close,looking over the gun at the front sight as a shotgun bead... grip and wrists..."return to battery" counts.How that is done may play into your muzzle drop.Wrists,elbows... Next step,to not watch target reaction,focus on the front sight.Find it as it falls back in the notch.Sight's in the notch?press the trigger,keep watching the sight. IMO,curing flinch is about disciplining the eyes to focus on the sights and follow through. Last edited by HiBC; October 18, 2014 at 07:11 PM. |
October 18, 2014, 08:30 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 8,638
|
You might chuckle at this,,,
You might chuckle at this,,,
But I'll toss it out there for grins. I wonder if a session with a hypnotherapist could help. Not just any old hypnotherapist,,, But one who specializes in athletic training & motivation. Hey, it could help. I smoked cigarettes for 44 years,,, One hypnotherapy session back in August of 2009,,, Cured an addiction/habit that hasn't bothered me for over 5 years. I know that pro athletes employ their services,,, It makes me wonder if any of our competitive shooters use them. Aarond .
__________________
Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time) |
October 18, 2014, 08:42 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
|
I noticed how bad of a flinch I have with my mosin nagant, I have been working on it the last few weeks, I think I have all but gotten totally rid of it. I just had to slow down and actually remember that I have a flinch before I shoot. take a deep breath and concentrate on my follow-through and try to think about the flinch and to steady through it. after about 50 rounds of really concentrating on it, I think I have gotten past it.
__________________
My head is bloody, but unbowed |
October 19, 2014, 01:45 AM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,902
|
Quote:
The simplest and best advice. Muzzle breaking down is anticipation of the trigger break. Concentrate on the front sight and SSSSQQQQUUUUEEEEEEEEZZZZEEEE the trigger.
__________________
45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|