Who has the advantage?

JuniorCommando · September 4, 2005, 07:21 PM

Assuming that there are no grenades and two people are engaged in an indoors firefight:

1 is crouching or prone behind some cover, not necessarily capable of fully stopping a round. The other is around the corner and about to turn the corner and attack. The attacker knows where the other person is hiding. Assuming equal skill for both shooters, who has the advantage and why?

CobrayCommando · September 4, 2005, 07:47 PM

The attacker, because he has control over when he enters, and will not be startled. When the attacker enters he will likely instinctively ready and aim the gun, and start pulling the trigger at the hiding spot before it even comes in sight.

The defender will have his heart beating like crazy, and will be startled when the attacker comes in, and might not know which door an attacker will come from. He will also have a false confidence from hiding behind something that he assumes will stop bullets but won't.

Bottom line, assuming equal skills, and assuming that the guy didn't know which door I was coming through, I would definately want to be the attacker.

If the defender knew which door I would come through, its a crap shoot, but I think I would rather be the defender in that case.

aspen1964 · September 4, 2005, 07:56 PM

..if the defensive man dresses a dummy with a gun and puts him where the attacker can spot him when bursting through the attacker will be chopped in half before he understands the rouse...

gddyup · September 4, 2005, 09:04 PM

If the attacker knows where the defender is going to be, then the attacker definately has the upper hand. Action is always quicker than reaction. The attacker can bide his time and define when the action is going to take place. If the defender only has concealment and not cover, then he is at a disadvantage.

CobrayCommando · September 4, 2005, 09:30 PM

gddyup I think you have cover and concealment confused.

gddyup · September 4, 2005, 09:32 PM

Cobray, please help me out if I do...

I was taught that cover is what helps keep me from getting shot while concealment is what keps me from being seen but not from getting shot....

Of course, my EMT instructor probably knew nothing about guns! LOL!

Am I confusing the two?

CobrayCommando · September 4, 2005, 09:34 PM

Yes that is correct but what you said earlier confused me, I should have realized you meant a combination of cover and concealment.

gddyup · September 4, 2005, 09:40 PM

Cobray... I went and edited my first post. I was thinking the right thinkg but I wrote the wrong thing..

Hehehehe.. I hate when I do that! LOL!

Slateman · September 4, 2005, 09:43 PM

The advantage goes to he who retains the initive. In that scenario, the attacker has it. He decides when the battle is to commence and when it will end. The defender must react. And he's breaking one of the primary rules of war: If you're enemy knows where you are, don't be there.

But, the defender can do some things to take the initive back. Number one, get some kind of warning. Break some glass, rig some cans on a wire, set up a camera. Anything to give the defender warning. Second, move. Obey the previously stated rule. Third, set up a distraction. A bright light would be handy if it were dark. Completely disorient the attacker. Or the dummy idea that was previously stated.

butch50 · September 4, 2005, 10:00 PM

The one who leaves the building instead of engaging in shoot-out.

CobrayCommando · September 4, 2005, 10:14 PM

butch why did you even post here? Sometimes you just have to do something, you cannot foresee everyones situation in advance.

For example: The person inside has a human heart in the room that if you got it could save your child. Who knows?

butch50 · September 4, 2005, 10:29 PM

Because no one has yet mentioned that the best way to survive a gun fight is to avoid a gun fight to begin with?

HighValleyRanch · September 4, 2005, 10:46 PM

CobrayCommando-
Hope that heart is in a bullet proof case when the shooting starts!

Double Naught Spy · September 4, 2005, 10:59 PM

Quote:

1 is crouching or prone behind some cover, not necessarily capable of fully stopping a round.

I think JuniorCommando is a little confused about the difference between cover and concealment. Cover not capable of stopping a round is called concealment.

Crosshair · September 4, 2005, 11:05 PM

However the defender can choose how the engagement will start. He can set up a can of pebbles on a tripwhire, lean a chair against the door so the attacker will have to shove it open. In most cases, unless there is complete surprise, the defender has the advantage.

CobrayCommando · September 5, 2005, 02:38 AM

No as someone said before action is always faster than reaction.

Warning, crazy game reference ahead:

In any realistic online shooter, a person can be watching a doorway or whatever, they are fairly easy to defeat simply by sliding out firing, since eventually after playing a lot you have an instinctive knowledge of where they will be (Gunkata!

LOL).

I assumed we were talking about a sterile cube of a room here, the only gear is a t-shirt and shorts, and a gun, and there are several doors and one piece of material that will only stop some of the bullets. No tripwires nothing...

In other words, the defender found out 3 seconds ago that the attacker could come in the doors any second. If I were the attacker I would let about a minute go by, let his reflexes get dull, eyes tired, arms tired, sweat dripping down on his face, heart racing and adrenaline pumping, then I would calmly go in firing.

September 4, 2005, 07:21 PM	#1
JuniorCommando Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: North Carolina southern state where Class 3's banned!! Posts: 30	Who has the advantage? Assuming that there are no grenades and two people are engaged in an indoors firefight: 1 is crouching or prone behind some cover, not necessarily capable of fully stopping a round. The other is around the corner and about to turn the corner and attack. The attacker knows where the other person is hiding. Assuming equal skill for both shooters, who has the advantage and why?

September 4, 2005, 09:04 PM	#4
gddyup Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Derry, NH Posts: 219	If the attacker knows where the defender is going to be, then the attacker definately has the upper hand. Action is always quicker than reaction. The attacker can bide his time and define when the action is going to take place. If the defender only has concealment and not cover, then he is at a disadvantage. __________________ Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob! "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein Last edited by gddyup; September 4, 2005 at 09:39 PM.

September 4, 2005, 09:32 PM	#6
gddyup Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Derry, NH Posts: 219	Cobray, please help me out if I do... I was taught that cover is what helps keep me from getting shot while concealment is what keps me from being seen but not from getting shot.... Of course, my EMT instructor probably knew nothing about guns! LOL! Am I confusing the two? __________________ Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob! "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

September 4, 2005, 09:40 PM	#8
gddyup Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Location: Derry, NH Posts: 219	Cobray... I went and edited my first post. I was thinking the right thinkg but I wrote the wrong thing.. Hehehehe.. I hate when I do that! LOL! __________________ Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob! "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

September 4, 2005, 10:00 PM	#10
butch50 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2005 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 1,403	The one who leaves the building instead of engaging in shoot-out. __________________ ‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry

September 4, 2005, 07:47 PM	#2
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	The attacker, because he has control over when he enters, and will not be startled. When the attacker enters he will likely instinctively ready and aim the gun, and start pulling the trigger at the hiding spot before it even comes in sight. The defender will have his heart beating like crazy, and will be startled when the attacker comes in, and might not know which door an attacker will come from. He will also have a false confidence from hiding behind something that he assumes will stop bullets but won't. Bottom line, assuming equal skills, and assuming that the guy didn't know which door I was coming through, I would definately want to be the attacker. If the defender knew which door I would come through, its a crap shoot, but I think I would rather be the defender in that case.

September 4, 2005, 07:56 PM	#3
aspen1964 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 1,030	..if the defensive man dresses a dummy with a gun and puts him where the attacker can spot him when bursting through the attacker will be chopped in half before he understands the rouse...

September 4, 2005, 09:30 PM	#5
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	gddyup I think you have cover and concealment confused.

September 4, 2005, 09:34 PM	#7
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Yes that is correct but what you said earlier confused me, I should have realized you meant a combination of cover and concealment.

September 4, 2005, 09:43 PM	#9
Slateman Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 323	The advantage goes to he who retains the initive. In that scenario, the attacker has it. He decides when the battle is to commence and when it will end. The defender must react. And he's breaking one of the primary rules of war: If you're enemy knows where you are, don't be there. But, the defender can do some things to take the initive back. Number one, get some kind of warning. Break some glass, rig some cans on a wire, set up a camera. Anything to give the defender warning. Second, move. Obey the previously stated rule. Third, set up a distraction. A bright light would be handy if it were dark. Completely disorient the attacker. Or the dummy idea that was previously stated.

September 4, 2005, 10:14 PM	#11
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	butch why did you even post here? Sometimes you just have to do something, you cannot foresee everyones situation in advance. For example: The person inside has a human heart in the room that if you got it could save your child. Who knows?

September 4, 2005, 10:29 PM	#12
butch50 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2005 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 1,403	Because no one has yet mentioned that the best way to survive a gun fight is to avoid a gun fight to begin with? __________________ ‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 ‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry

September 4, 2005, 10:46 PM	#13
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	CobrayCommando- Hope that heart is in a bullet proof case when the shooting starts! __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

September 4, 2005, 11:05 PM	#15
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	However the defender can choose how the engagement will start. He can set up a can of pebbles on a tripwhire, lean a chair against the door so the attacker will have to shove it open. In most cases, unless there is complete surprise, the defender has the advantage.

September 5, 2005, 02:38 AM	#16
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	No as someone said before action is always faster than reaction. Warning, crazy game reference ahead: In any realistic online shooter, a person can be watching a doorway or whatever, they are fairly easy to defeat simply by sliding out firing, since eventually after playing a lot you have an instinctive knowledge of where they will be (Gunkata! LOL). I assumed we were talking about a sterile cube of a room here, the only gear is a t-shirt and shorts, and a gun, and there are several doors and one piece of material that will only stop some of the bullets. No tripwires nothing... In other words, the defender found out 3 seconds ago that the attacker could come in the doors any second. If I were the attacker I would let about a minute go by, let his reflexes get dull, eyes tired, arms tired, sweat dripping down on his face, heart racing and adrenaline pumping, then I would calmly go in firing.