Good recipe for .308 loads?

Gypsysteel · August 15, 2009, 05:23 PM

Hi guys,
I'm about to complete my first Armalite AR-10T build and will probably load my own ammo. Anyone out there doing .308 loads for a semi-auto? Need a good starting point.

Thanks!

Slamfire · August 15, 2009, 05:57 PM

A popular target load in the M1a was 168 Match Bullet, 41.5 grains IMR 4895 any case, WLR. I use CCI #34 primers. OAL LT 2.800"

I would recommend you start with 40.5 grains IMR 4895 and work up half a grain increments.

velocette · August 15, 2009, 06:44 PM

In my DPMS LR 308B, I've been using 41 gr of IMR 4895 with Federal or Lake City GI cases under a Sierra or Nosler 168 grain HPBT match bullet. When using RP or Win cases, I use 41.5 gr of IMR 4895. In either case Fed or Win primers work well. These loads are good for consistent sub MOA results.
Bulk FMJ or cheap bullets yield 1.5 ~ 4" groups.

Roger

dsv424 · August 15, 2009, 11:05 PM

Some of my favorites for my Saiga .308 are: 155g HP BT Sierra Match, 41.4g IMR 4064, Win. LR primer, OAL of 2.780. Also 168g HP BT Speer Target Match, 43.0g RL-15, CCI#34 primer, OAL of 2.800. And 110g HP Sierra, 46.4g Varget, CCI#34 primer, OAL of 2.555

dsv424 · August 15, 2009, 11:11 PM

Oh, BTW all the loads I posted were slightly below mid-level range. But I would always check your books to verify when getting load data from anyone.

LuckyStrike · August 16, 2009, 04:17 PM

175gr. SMK's w/43.9 gr. of Re-15 & Winchester LR primers.

Its pretty much a copy of M118LR ammo except that I would rather use Federal 210m primers if I could get a hold of them. But the Winchester primes work great.

rn22723 · August 16, 2009, 04:55 PM

How about you just pick a bullet and work up a load in your gun! What a novel idea! And, you have to be specific with the 308 as case capacity varies greatly. Something worked up in WW brass shot in Fed brass would be DISASTER! Trolling for loads is not bright idea at all! Do the leg work!

Certain givens can be taken into account.

Get good brass from a known source. Since WW and RP brass is scarce....
you are looking at Lapua and Nosler. Next, of stay away from once fired Mil Surp brass. Probably shot in sloppy MG, and it is probably going to need a trip thru a small base sizer die for starters. Now, if you found some once fired LC M118LR brass....

Next of to improve brass life get tools to measure headspace and set up your dies to set the shoulder back 2 to 3 thousandths just enough to ensure reliable chambering.

Stay away from VLD bullets if you are looking to only load from the mag.

Bullets look at Nosler or Sierra OTM offereings.......

Powder can be problematic......
Varget is a great choice tough to find though......with some BR2 primers..awesome potential.
IMR 4895 and 4064 with WLR primers.......
RL15 is probably the most consistently available powder right now, and if you spark it with Fed 210M or BR2......awesome potential.

Till you get it thru your head each gun is a rule unto itseld....trolling for loads could be trolling for trouble! You want safe, accurate,a nd reliable ammo to shoot!

BurkGlocker · August 16, 2009, 07:57 PM

My shooting buddy loads for his M1A 168 gr Hornady BTHP over 45.3 grs of Varget in Win brass and WLR primers, cases trimmed to 2.005", OAL 2.800" with a slight crimp, but not enough to distort the bullet. half inch groups are a constant @ 100 yards. He does not feed these from the mag, only one at a time because of the light crimp, which could push the bullet back into the case and cause over pressure and possible boom boom.

Reminder: this load has been worked for his rifle, and may not be safe in yours.

Just as was suggested before, work your own loads up, which will take time, money and plenty of patience, but that is one of the joys of reloading...

Happy shooting!

LuckyStrike · August 16, 2009, 09:16 PM

That seems like a pretty hot load, wharsmahhummer. Do you know what MV its getting?

Zombie Steve · August 16, 2009, 11:29 PM

45.3 grains of varget pushing a 168 does sound like a pile.

rn22723, I've "trolled" for loads plenty of times, because plenty of times I made the decision to use a certain powder and bullet based on what I see in a manual, and it turns out to be crappy. If I can find someone that can point me in a good direction on a load I've never done, it not only saves me time, but money. That doesn't mean someone isn't being safe and working up slowly, checking it against published data, et cetera... they just don't want to try a work up batch for 15 different recipes to find the right one.

In fact, if I had trolled a bit better, I wouldn't have 5 pounds of IMR 4320 or a bucket of once fired Mil Surp brass in my garage.

Zombie Steve · August 16, 2009, 11:40 PM

Oooops, sorry - to the OP (sorry for the rant)

For what it's worth, my M1A seems to love the 168 grain Hornady AMAX bullet over 41.9 grains of Varget / CCI Large Rifle primer. This is lower to mid-range (average 2,550fps), but accuracy is better than any factory round I've shot. I'm not going to pretend I've tried a zillion different things, but this is what I've found to work well so far.

Good luck.

BurkGlocker · August 17, 2009, 11:22 AM

Thanks for the catch, it 's 42.3 grs, not 45.3, my apologies.

Damn these fat fingers...

**Unclenick** · August 17, 2009, 04:37 PM

Actually, even 45.3 should be within pressure limits in a Winchester case with the bullet seated to 2.800" and using a mild primer. But only in a Winchester case, for sure. The Hodgdon online manual give 46 grains of Varget, slightly compressed, as maximum for the Winchester case over the 168 grain Sierra MatchKing with the Federal 210M primer, generating 50,600 cup, and that matches QuickLOAD's (QL’s) calculation quite well. The conversion by my slightly modified version of Bramwell's fit is 50,699 cup=58,540 psi. QL puts the combination at 56,800 psi. That may be slightly lower because QL assumes the mildest possible primer, while real primers are not quite that mild. It may be because QL is based on modeling CIP pressure measurements which can be around 2,000 psi low because they are taken nearer the case neck than SAAMI measurements. But it’s also the case that the conversions are inexact, that Hodgdon will have tested only the ten samples (SAAMI spec), which is not statistically significant enough to establish the mean accurately (should be 30, IMHO).

So about all you can say is that QL is probably about right. Add 2000 psi to what its results as given below for the CIP method difference and you will be getting pretty darn close, I expect.

The Winchester cases I've measured (quite a number, actually) average about 59 grains of water capacity expanded to a tight chamber with their current production, which is the semi-balloon head design they created for the '92 Palma match to have a little more powder capacity than normal. QL gives the 45.3 grain load 54,267 psi under the 168 grain SMK bullet in such a Winchester case, seated to 2.800" COL and fired in a SAAMI minimum chamber using a mild primer. Based on my past measurements of case brands, in a Remington case that would increase to 57,482, in a Lapua case it would be 58,362 psi. In Lake City Match (M852 type) it goes 61,156 psi. And in an IMI Match it goes up to 63,207. The last one is over the SAAMI max of 62,000 psi, the last two are both over the CIP max of 60,191 psi (4150 bar). Those are based on measurements I've made of samples I’ve had, with Winchester cases weighing 156 grains, Remington around 168 grains, Lapua 171 grains, Lake City Match about 180 grains, and IMIMatch at about 186 grains.

Since QL is built on the CIP measuring models and since you might drop a stick powder .4 grains off, I would allow 2,000 psi + another 1,500 for powder drop slop. So add 3500 to all the above numbers and the last 3 are over SAAM limits.

Keep in mind with all this that your lot of Varget may not match the lot Hodgdon or the lot QL measured perfectly, so all those loads should be knocked down 10% before trying them, and the load worked up while watching for pressure signs.

LuckyStrike · August 17, 2009, 05:24 PM

Good info Unclenick, I still assume that much powder is going to push a 168 bullet faster than I would ever need one to go

semi_problomatic · August 21, 2009, 08:12 PM

I thought "trolling for loads" was what the particular part of the forum was for? If I'm not mistaken sharing loads is EXACTLY what a manual does anyway. I mean, I've gone over my hornady reloading manual and they tell you what load with what bullet did what for velocity...doesn't it? Maybe I'm mistaken and really reloading is a secret and completely mystical operation where someone should just blindly load powder into brass, smash on a bullet and let fly, hoping for the best results? It would be ludacris for someone to ask advice, compare notes and actually learn from other people's mistakes and examples. My, where would we be if THAT happened?

IMHO "trolling for loads" is one of the better things you can do here.

**Unclenick** · August 22, 2009, 04:22 PM

Actually they are giving you a range of loads, some point within which might be maximum for your gun. You are supposed to start with the mildest one on the list and slowly work up. Not simply select a velocity and load that load. If your gun isn't dimensionally identical to theirs, especially as to barrel length, you won't get that velocity anyway. The higher loads may not be safe in your particular gun. I've had a couple of starting loads from manuals give pressure signs in my particular guns, so that is no joke about starting at the bottom.

The big drawback for anyone firing loads from a manual is the manual authors didn't do the testing in your particular gun. It therefore is a suggestion; an approximation. Some data offers just one recipe, such as the Alliant data, but that is supposed to be tested in a pressure barrel that has the minimum size chamber for the caliber, which should be the highest pressure case. However, if that data is given in CUP instead of in PSI, then a copper crusher was used, and their reliability has proven to be questionable, with poor repeatability from one tester to the next.

fmrSF · December 13, 2009, 10:56 PM

GypsySteel,
I know what it feels like to be a bit humbled with all of the possibilities when it comes to reloading. I agree with your request, and there is nothing wrong with asking for advice, for a good starting point. I think some of these idiots didn't read your request, and forgot you weren't asking for a finished product, but some advice on where to start. I have 20 years experience shooting longe range, 16 years in Special Foces, and a certified sniper. As per your request for a good starting load, this is what I use in my Armalite AR-10T, and have used in real world applications in a Stoner.

Bullet: SMK 168 Grain BTHP
Primer: WLR
Powder: IMR 4895 is bar none the best, and I load 41.5 Grain
Cases: Lapua if you can afford it, or LC M118LR Brass

Hope this helps, and good shooting bro

Clay · December 14, 2009, 01:29 PM

As someone who will be getting into reloading soon, I LOVE these threads. I learn so much. 308 reloading will be my TOP priority. Buying accurate 308 ammo is EXPENSIVE. I dream of being able to load top notch ammo for my rifle for 50 cents (or less) a trigger pull. I'll eventually be posting my own thread on what options are best for "top of the line" reload vs "plinking" reload. I'm still 6 months away from that, but I can soak up the knowledge until that day. So, keep the suggestions coming.

I'd also love to hear about people's experience with different types of cases. I'm wondering if I should reload my cheap'o federal brass or buy some good Lapua or Nosler stuff to start off with. Doesn't look like Hornady's new stuff has gotten good reviews over on Miday!

edward5759 · December 14, 2009, 02:26 PM

Is a 168 grain over 46 grains of BLC; I shoot About 500 rounds a month.
I used to use 4895 but found the metering more constant on the Dillon 1050.
4064 is real constant but it has a lot of secondary gas pressure that likes to hammer the op rod in M1As. Varget is Good but hard to meter in the 1050s.
Unclenick good article! I find it to be very true.
I do not crimp bullets in my M1As or Armalites. I only crimp in heavy recoil rifles like the 375 H&H or lever guns. I don't own but one hand gun.
If you real interested in 308 another good sit is
http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/index.php
It is mostly M1As but there is a lot on 308 or the 7.62 x 51 NATO
There is some difference in them.

James R. Burke · December 14, 2009, 04:44 PM

Like dsv424 always check your books. Typos are so easy to make. But the folks on here no doubt have given you some good one's, and starting points.

August 15, 2009, 05:23 PM	#1
Gypsysteel Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2009 Posts: 8	Good recipe for .308 loads? Hi guys, I'm about to complete my first Armalite AR-10T build and will probably load my own ammo. Anyone out there doing .308 loads for a semi-auto? Need a good starting point. Thanks!

August 17, 2009, 04:37 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Actually, even 45.3 should be within pressure limits in a Winchester case with the bullet seated to 2.800" and using a mild primer. But only in a Winchester case, for sure. The Hodgdon online manual give 46 grains of Varget, slightly compressed, as maximum for the Winchester case over the 168 grain Sierra MatchKing with the Federal 210M primer, generating 50,600 cup, and that matches QuickLOAD's (QL’s) calculation quite well. The conversion by my slightly modified version of Bramwell's fit is 50,699 cup=58,540 psi. QL puts the combination at 56,800 psi. That may be slightly lower because QL assumes the mildest possible primer, while real primers are not quite that mild. It may be because QL is based on modeling CIP pressure measurements which can be around 2,000 psi low because they are taken nearer the case neck than SAAMI measurements. But it’s also the case that the conversions are inexact, that Hodgdon will have tested only the ten samples (SAAMI spec), which is not statistically significant enough to establish the mean accurately (should be 30, IMHO). So about all you can say is that QL is probably about right. Add 2000 psi to what its results as given below for the CIP method difference and you will be getting pretty darn close, I expect. The Winchester cases I've measured (quite a number, actually) average about 59 grains of water capacity expanded to a tight chamber with their current production, which is the semi-balloon head design they created for the '92 Palma match to have a little more powder capacity than normal. QL gives the 45.3 grain load 54,267 psi under the 168 grain SMK bullet in such a Winchester case, seated to 2.800" COL and fired in a SAAMI minimum chamber using a mild primer. Based on my past measurements of case brands, in a Remington case that would increase to 57,482, in a Lapua case it would be 58,362 psi. In Lake City Match (M852 type) it goes 61,156 psi. And in an IMI Match it goes up to 63,207. The last one is over the SAAMI max of 62,000 psi, the last two are both over the CIP max of 60,191 psi (4150 bar). Those are based on measurements I've made of samples I’ve had, with Winchester cases weighing 156 grains, Remington around 168 grains, Lapua 171 grains, Lake City Match about 180 grains, and IMIMatch at about 186 grains. Since QL is built on the CIP measuring models and since you might drop a stick powder .4 grains off, I would allow 2,000 psi + another 1,500 for powder drop slop. So add 3500 to all the above numbers and the last 3 are over SAAM limits. Keep in mind with all this that your lot of Varget may not match the lot Hodgdon or the lot QL measured perfectly, so all those loads should be knocked down 10% before trying them, and the load worked up while watching for pressure signs. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 22, 2009, 04:22 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Actually they are giving you a range of loads, some point within which might be maximum for your gun. You are supposed to start with the mildest one on the list and slowly work up. Not simply select a velocity and load that load. If your gun isn't dimensionally identical to theirs, especially as to barrel length, you won't get that velocity anyway. The higher loads may not be safe in your particular gun. I've had a couple of starting loads from manuals give pressure signs in my particular guns, so that is no joke about starting at the bottom. The big drawback for anyone firing loads from a manual is the manual authors didn't do the testing in your particular gun. It therefore is a suggestion; an approximation. Some data offers just one recipe, such as the Alliant data, but that is supposed to be tested in a pressure barrel that has the minimum size chamber for the caliber, which should be the highest pressure case. However, if that data is given in CUP instead of in PSI, then a copper crusher was used, and their reliability has proven to be questionable, with poor repeatability from one tester to the next. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 13, 2009, 10:56 PM	#17
fmrSF Junior Member Join Date: December 13, 2009 Posts: 1	GypsySteel, sorry for the arrogant idiots GypsySteel, I know what it feels like to be a bit humbled with all of the possibilities when it comes to reloading. I agree with your request, and there is nothing wrong with asking for advice, for a good starting point. I think some of these idiots didn't read your request, and forgot you weren't asking for a finished product, but some advice on where to start. I have 20 years experience shooting longe range, 16 years in Special Foces, and a certified sniper. As per your request for a good starting load, this is what I use in my Armalite AR-10T, and have used in real world applications in a Stoner. Bullet: SMK 168 Grain BTHP Primer: WLR Powder: IMR 4895 is bar none the best, and I load 41.5 Grain Cases: Lapua if you can afford it, or LC M118LR Brass Hope this helps, and good shooting bro

December 14, 2009, 02:26 PM	#19
edward5759 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ. 30 miles from water, two feet from Hell. Posts: 355	what I like to shoot Is a 168 grain over 46 grains of BLC; I shoot About 500 rounds a month. I used to use 4895 but found the metering more constant on the Dillon 1050. 4064 is real constant but it has a lot of secondary gas pressure that likes to hammer the op rod in M1As. Varget is Good but hard to meter in the 1050s. Unclenick good article! I find it to be very true. I do not crimp bullets in my M1As or Armalites. I only crimp in heavy recoil rifles like the 375 H&H or lever guns. I don't own but one hand gun. If you real interested in 308 another good sit is http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/index.php It is mostly M1As but there is a lot on 308 or the 7.62 x 51 NATO There is some difference in them.

August 15, 2009, 05:57 PM	#2
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	A popular target load in the M1a was 168 Match Bullet, 41.5 grains IMR 4895 any case, WLR. I use CCI #34 primers. OAL LT 2.800" I would recommend you start with 40.5 grains IMR 4895 and work up half a grain increments.

August 15, 2009, 06:44 PM	#3
velocette Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: South Florida Posts: 924	In my DPMS LR 308B, I've been using 41 gr of IMR 4895 with Federal or Lake City GI cases under a Sierra or Nosler 168 grain HPBT match bullet. When using RP or Win cases, I use 41.5 gr of IMR 4895. In either case Fed or Win primers work well. These loads are good for consistent sub MOA results. Bulk FMJ or cheap bullets yield 1.5 ~ 4" groups. Roger __________________ Trigger control + Breath control + Sight alignment = Gun Control. http://www.hrpclub.info/ NRA Smallbore Prone Master, High Power Master

August 15, 2009, 11:05 PM	#4
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Some of my favorites for my Saiga .308 are: 155g HP BT Sierra Match, 41.4g IMR 4064, Win. LR primer, OAL of 2.780. Also 168g HP BT Speer Target Match, 43.0g RL-15, CCI#34 primer, OAL of 2.800. And 110g HP Sierra, 46.4g Varget, CCI#34 primer, OAL of 2.555

August 15, 2009, 11:11 PM	#5
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Oh, BTW all the loads I posted were slightly below mid-level range. But I would always check your books to verify when getting load data from anyone.

August 16, 2009, 04:17 PM	#6
LuckyStrike Member Join Date: May 5, 2009 Posts: 69	175gr. SMK's w/43.9 gr. of Re-15 & Winchester LR primers. Its pretty much a copy of M118LR ammo except that I would rather use Federal 210m primers if I could get a hold of them. But the Winchester primes work great.

August 16, 2009, 04:55 PM	#7
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	How about you just pick a bullet and work up a load in your gun! What a novel idea! And, you have to be specific with the 308 as case capacity varies greatly. Something worked up in WW brass shot in Fed brass would be DISASTER! Trolling for loads is not bright idea at all! Do the leg work! Certain givens can be taken into account. Get good brass from a known source. Since WW and RP brass is scarce.... you are looking at Lapua and Nosler. Next, of stay away from once fired Mil Surp brass. Probably shot in sloppy MG, and it is probably going to need a trip thru a small base sizer die for starters. Now, if you found some once fired LC M118LR brass.... Next of to improve brass life get tools to measure headspace and set up your dies to set the shoulder back 2 to 3 thousandths just enough to ensure reliable chambering. Stay away from VLD bullets if you are looking to only load from the mag. Bullets look at Nosler or Sierra OTM offereings....... Powder can be problematic...... Varget is a great choice tough to find though......with some BR2 primers..awesome potential. IMR 4895 and 4064 with WLR primers....... RL15 is probably the most consistently available powder right now, and if you spark it with Fed 210M or BR2......awesome potential. Till you get it thru your head each gun is a rule unto itseld....trolling for loads could be trolling for trouble! You want safe, accurate,a nd reliable ammo to shoot!

August 16, 2009, 07:57 PM	#8
BurkGlocker Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2008 Location: Sheppard AFB, TX Posts: 568	My shooting buddy loads for his M1A 168 gr Hornady BTHP over 45.3 grs of Varget in Win brass and WLR primers, cases trimmed to 2.005", OAL 2.800" with a slight crimp, but not enough to distort the bullet. half inch groups are a constant @ 100 yards. He does not feed these from the mag, only one at a time because of the light crimp, which could push the bullet back into the case and cause over pressure and possible boom boom. Reminder: this load has been worked for his rifle, and may not be safe in yours. Just as was suggested before, work your own loads up, which will take time, money and plenty of patience, but that is one of the joys of reloading... Happy shooting!

August 16, 2009, 09:16 PM	#9
LuckyStrike Member Join Date: May 5, 2009 Posts: 69	That seems like a pretty hot load, wharsmahhummer. Do you know what MV its getting?

August 16, 2009, 11:29 PM	#10
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	45.3 grains of varget pushing a 168 does sound like a pile. rn22723, I've "trolled" for loads plenty of times, because plenty of times I made the decision to use a certain powder and bullet based on what I see in a manual, and it turns out to be crappy. If I can find someone that can point me in a good direction on a load I've never done, it not only saves me time, but money. That doesn't mean someone isn't being safe and working up slowly, checking it against published data, et cetera... they just don't want to try a work up batch for 15 different recipes to find the right one. In fact, if I had trolled a bit better, I wouldn't have 5 pounds of IMR 4320 or a bucket of once fired Mil Surp brass in my garage.

August 16, 2009, 11:40 PM	#11
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	Oooops, sorry - to the OP (sorry for the rant) For what it's worth, my M1A seems to love the 168 grain Hornady AMAX bullet over 41.9 grains of Varget / CCI Large Rifle primer. This is lower to mid-range (average 2,550fps), but accuracy is better than any factory round I've shot. I'm not going to pretend I've tried a zillion different things, but this is what I've found to work well so far. Good luck.

August 17, 2009, 11:22 AM	#12
BurkGlocker Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2008 Location: Sheppard AFB, TX Posts: 568	Thanks for the catch, it 's 42.3 grs, not 45.3, my apologies. Damn these fat fingers...

August 17, 2009, 05:24 PM	#14
LuckyStrike Member Join Date: May 5, 2009 Posts: 69	Good info Unclenick, I still assume that much powder is going to push a 168 bullet faster than I would ever need one to go

August 21, 2009, 08:12 PM	#15
semi_problomatic Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2009 Location: Ft. Polk Posts: 883	I thought "trolling for loads" was what the particular part of the forum was for? If I'm not mistaken sharing loads is EXACTLY what a manual does anyway. I mean, I've gone over my hornady reloading manual and they tell you what load with what bullet did what for velocity...doesn't it? Maybe I'm mistaken and really reloading is a secret and completely mystical operation where someone should just blindly load powder into brass, smash on a bullet and let fly, hoping for the best results? It would be ludacris for someone to ask advice, compare notes and actually learn from other people's mistakes and examples. My, where would we be if THAT happened? IMHO "trolling for loads" is one of the better things you can do here.

December 14, 2009, 01:29 PM	#18
Clay Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2009 Posts: 166	As someone who will be getting into reloading soon, I LOVE these threads. I learn so much. 308 reloading will be my TOP priority. Buying accurate 308 ammo is EXPENSIVE. I dream of being able to load top notch ammo for my rifle for 50 cents (or less) a trigger pull. I'll eventually be posting my own thread on what options are best for "top of the line" reload vs "plinking" reload. I'm still 6 months away from that, but I can soak up the knowledge until that day. So, keep the suggestions coming. I'd also love to hear about people's experience with different types of cases. I'm wondering if I should reload my cheap'o federal brass or buy some good Lapua or Nosler stuff to start off with. Doesn't look like Hornady's new stuff has gotten good reviews over on Miday!

December 14, 2009, 04:44 PM	#20
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Like dsv424 always check your books. Typos are so easy to make. But the folks on here no doubt have given you some good one's, and starting points.