ammo for a damascus parker bros??

Topaz · June 2, 2009, 05:10 PM

I've been told there are safe low pressure loads for damascus steel barreled guns available. How and where?? Are they blackpowder or smokeless? I paid a fortune for restoring this beauty and would love to shoot it if safely able to do so. Hindsight being 20-20 I should have stoked it up with baby mags before paying to refinish it tucked it behind a tree with rope to both triggers and given it a "pressure test"!!! Anyone know anything about these loads I sure would love to hear about them. 12 ga. 2-3/4"

knight0334 · June 2, 2009, 05:25 PM

First would be to see if its a 2-3/4" or 2-1/2" chamber gun. Many of the old guns were shorter chamber guns. Crimped 2-3/4" shells will often fit in a 2-1/2" chamber, but will result in nasty events if fired.

2-1/2" and blackpowder shells

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=188

dahermit · June 2, 2009, 05:54 PM

Damascus steel is made by braiding together "ribbons" of steel and then forge welding them together around a mandrel. The warning from years ago was: There are forge welded joints that cannot be seen with visual inspection that may not be continuous resulting in internal areas that are slowly rusting away the metal. That which passes pressure testing previously, may not always continue to maintain its strength. Some old timers concluded that Damascus barrels are an explosion waiting to happen...they did not recommend shootings such guns even with "appropriate loads." How much are your body parts worth to you?

Topaz · June 2, 2009, 07:52 PM

Less and less as the years go by!!! So I should let my wife take the first couple shots?? They (the barrels) look flawless and could be lined to accept 20 ga. tubes but it would effect the balance of course and also
$600 from my wallet.

zippy13 · June 2, 2009, 08:10 PM

Greetings Topaz, and welcome aboard,

I haven't noticed "Damascus" loads in some time; but, I haven't been looking. I suspect the legal eagles have counseled the ammo manufacturers against making them because of potential liability issues.   I like the liner ideal. You might ask Jess Briley about some light weight shorty tubes.

oneounceload · June 2, 2009, 08:57 PM

IF a gunsmith has blessed your gun as safe, try Polywad or RST for low pressure loads for vintage guns. If as is, it is not safe, getting it sleeved will let you shoot it with those loads. But, as mentioned, the chambers need to be determined.....you NEVER want to shoot 2-3/4 in 2-1/2 chambers......only bad things can happen from that.

Good luck and have fun

greenacres · June 2, 2009, 09:53 PM

I suggest you ask they guys on this forum
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php
They shoot antique Damascus barreled shotguns all the time.

redlevel42 · June 2, 2009, 10:02 PM

"IF a gunsmith has blessed your gun as safe, try Polywad or RST for low pressure loads for vintage guns."

No smokeless powder load, even the low-pressure offerings, are safe to shoot in a Damascus gun.

oneounceload · June 3, 2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

No smokeless powder load, even the low-pressure offerings, are safe to shoot in a Damascus gun.

That is not necessarily true. As someone mentioned above, the folks at doublegunshop.com do it all the time, using very low pressure loads - they would be able to best answer the question for the right load to use

Topaz · June 3, 2009, 09:29 AM

wow , you guys are full of it... information that is, thanks for all of it and I 'm checking out the double guns forums see if I can shoot some birds with gramp's shotgun in Ks this year.

Dave McC · June 3, 2009, 10:09 AM

Some folks do shoot selected Damascus barrelled shotguns with low pressure loads. A couple of years back, one of those optimists had their gun blow up on them at a major shoot. It proved fatal to both shotgun and shooter.

In England, some old barrels have been reproofed and found to be sound.

Shotguns and grenades have similar working pressures.

IMO, Life's short enough.

That Parker can be shot though. Briley will make some subgauge tubes so you can have an 8 lb 20 gauge if you so wish.

T'were it mine, I'd conserve both wood and metal, hang it over the fireplace and admire it.

oneounceload · June 3, 2009, 10:19 AM

Sleeving it is another alternative to sub-gauge tubes and works well in older guns with enough barrel wall thickness

zippy13 · June 3, 2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave McC

In England, some old barrels have been reproofed and found to be sound.

I was reading an old Dixie Gun Works catalog the other day, and there was an article on proof testing at home. It involved loading with a double charge and remotely firing the gun. It didn't seem like rocket science; but, of course, you risk destroying the gun in the process.

Ruger4570 · June 3, 2009, 11:40 PM

If I were to fire a DOUBLE charge in my Browning I would want to have it be remote, like a LONG string to pull the trigger, VERY LONG string. I don't know if even a modern gun, made last week could handle a double charge. I remember a chat I had with one of the guys at the Ithaca factory in King Ferry. I believe he said they use 40% overcharges to prove their guns.
I know many Damascus guns have been declared safe to shoot and they may in fact be just fine. When you consider HOW the barrel is made, many strips of steel and Iron twisted and welded together, then twisted and welded again then around a mandrell to form a barrel. I would guess, thousands of little individual welds in a Damascus barrel. What happens if one of these small welds lets go, how about the weld next to it and so on?
I have often wondered if the rusting internally really stops. Even though you have Birmingham proof it today, will it still be safe next year because of microscopic rusting and weakening?
You fellas that are willing to touch off a round, well, God bless you, you have bigger heuevos than me. I might fire one if it were sleeved, but certainly not without SOME safety net out there.

TxGun · June 4, 2009, 12:36 AM

Briley is one of the best, if not the best, for sleeving work. He is a little pricey. Then again, you get what you pay for, as the saying goes.

http://www.briley.com/index.asp?Page...S&Category=206

Bitman · June 8, 2009, 11:25 AM

Topaz,

Most of these guys mean well, but are very much misinformed about Parker Shotguns and Damascus barrels.
I shoot 1000's of rounds a year in Damascus and Twist barrel Parkers.
Go to the Parker website for the correct info.
http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/

Positrack · June 8, 2009, 12:07 PM

For sake of argument, I will shamefully admit that when I was young(er) and (more) ignorant, I was given a well-worn Remington Model 1882 side-by-side with 32" damascus barrels by my grandpa. I didn't know anything about pressure differences between powder types or damascus barrels, and figured "a 12ga. is a 12 ga." I love the balance, smoothness, and simplicity of the gun, and did a LOT of shooting with it after I got it. I put boxes and boxes of deer slugs, magnum and high-velocity 00 buckshot, heavy high-velocity turkey loads, and just about any other nasty 2 3/4" shell I could find through it. I'm talking hundreds of high-brass loads over the course of several years, as well as MANY hundreds more heavy target loads (3DR 1 1/8oz). All modern ammunition of course. It never blew or bulged. I eventually took it to a gunsmith who said the barrels looked alright but that they were damascus steel and should not be used with modern ammo. Needless to say, I consider myself INCREDIBLY lucky not to have had a barrel burst (luckier than I deserved given the number of times I poked fate in the eye...). I also can't believe, looking back on it, that I shot a century old shotgun without getting it checked out first. All that said, I can't help but wonder if some of those old guns aren't stronger than they're given credit for. I have heard of barrels bursting on some of those old SxSs, and I'm certainly not suggesting you not worry about it, but just raising the question as to just how weak these barrels really are. Perhaps it's more a question of the quality of construction rather than the method? I really don't know much about these guns, but I'm just wondering based on my own limited research and experience.

B.L.E. · June 8, 2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

I was reading an old Dixie Gun Works catalog the other day, and there was an article on proof testing at home. It involved loading with a double charge and remotely firing the gun. It didn't seem like rocket science; but, of course, you risk destroying the gun in the process.

Were they talking about black powder proofing? I can't see even a modern gun going unscathed with a double charge of smokeless. It's like doubling the charge way more than doubles the pressure.
With black powder, doubling the charge roughly doubles the pressure and all guns should have at least a 2 to 1 strength safety margin.

Quote:

I can't help but wonder if some of those old guns aren't stronger than they're given credit for.

I don't think it's the inherent strength but the fact that the barrels are something like 100 years old and there's no telling if there is corrosion between the laminates somewhere forming a weak spot. In the hey day of Damascus steel barrels, shooters paid extra for Damascus because it was believed to be stronger and there were even fake Damascus barrels made of regular steel but etched with a Damascus like pattern on the outside.

zippy13 · June 8, 2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

I was reading an old Dixie Gun Works catalog the other day, and there was an article on proof testing at home. It involved loading with a double charge and remotely firing the gun. It didn't seem like rocket science; but, of course, you risk destroying the gun in the process.

Were they talking about black powder proofing?

I believe it was black powder. I was trying to point out that a Damascus barrel gun could be re-proofed but with the risk of destruction. You're correct, black powder and smokeless powder proofing standards are different in the percentage of the overcharge.

If the OP is really serious about shooting, I still think he needs to contact Briley, or another shop, about tubing (to a smaller gauge) or lining (same gauge) the barrels. If there weren't folks having it done, then why would they would have listed in the standard fee schedule?

Bill DeShivs · June 8, 2009, 04:55 PM

On top of eveything else that has been said, black powder residue is extremely corrosive. When the gun was fired with BP, these corrosives were driven into the pores and voids of the damascus steel. It is very difficult to remove them 100%.
I have no doubt a properly made and uncorroded damascus barrel would hold up under heavy modern loads, but unless you have your own Magnaflux machine, how would you ever really know the steel was stable?
Sleeve the gun, use 20 gauge inserts, or hang it on the wall. Be safe.

oneounceload · June 8, 2009, 05:01 PM

Purdey is making a new gun out of damascus - barrels AND action - very neat looking, but I'm sure I could buy a beach house for the price

clang · June 9, 2009, 07:41 PM

"Some folks do shoot selected Damascus barrelled shotguns with low pressure loads. A couple of years back, one of those optimists had their gun blow up on them at a major shoot. It proved fatal to both shotgun and shooter."

Where was that??? Was it a British gun?

I've got several old Remington SxSs. One old A grade 1894 has damascus barrels that I often shoot with modern ammo. I usually reload some low pressure loads myself, but can purchase a couple of varieties of low-recoil ammo that would fit the bill. This gun has had it's chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" before I purchased it. I've put at least 1,000 rounds through it.

One issue with Damascus has already been stated - there can be damage to the barrels that is not clearly visable. If a gun were put away for a long time with Black Powder residue in the bore, it is possible to have localized rusting that would be only pinholes in the bore, but could compromise the integrity of the barrels.

Another issue comes mainly from some of the British guns out there that have been used and refinished so many times that their barrel wall thickness has become dangerously thin. These can go kaboom just like any shotgun with barrel walls that are too thin, damascus or steel.

But that leaves the question - how did they get too thin??? The Brits didn't buy the whole "not safe to shoot smokeless powder" story and just kept on shooting their damascus guns the past hundred years or so. A refinish every 10-20 years or so of hard shooting and the gun is back looking good as new. If they had to polish out some spots - so be it. If the barrels get too thin - it's time to rebarrel or resleeve the gun. Unfortunaltey, some unscrupolous dealers also have sold these guns, especially on the export market, without making proper repairs or notifying the buyer.

Sound Damascus barrels are every bit as strong (or stronger) than the steel barrels of their time. There have been modern enthusiasts who have tested damascus barrels to breaking point and they have performed admirably (one test I recall is from the Finding Out for Myself column in the Double Gun Journal about 10 years ago).

There is a working hypothesis that the warnings about smokeless powder were actually started by the gun manufacturers to help sell guns with steel barrels, as they had recently become easier to produce/less expensive than the highly labor intensive damascus barrels.

It's hard to describe the beauty of a damascus barrel unless you've examined a fine conditioned speciman up close. It truely is a thing of beauty, so how else were the gun manufacturers going to get their customers to purchase the much plainer looking and cheaper to manufacture steel barrels?

DISCLAIMER: The info contained in this post is worth what you paid for it - absolutely nothing. I don't recommend shooting any old guns, Damascus or not. Just send those old guns to me so that I can properly dispose of them myself. If you are dumb enough to blow up a gun in your face it is your own damn fault.

June 2, 2009, 05:10 PM	#1
Topaz Junior Member Join Date: February 20, 2009 Posts: 14	ammo for a damascus parker bros?? I've been told there are safe low pressure loads for damascus steel barreled guns available. How and where?? Are they blackpowder or smokeless? I paid a fortune for restoring this beauty and would love to shoot it if safely able to do so. Hindsight being 20-20 I should have stoked it up with baby mags before paying to refinish it tucked it behind a tree with rope to both triggers and given it a "pressure test"!!! Anyone know anything about these loads I sure would love to hear about them. 12 ga. 2-3/4"

June 2, 2009, 10:02 PM	#8
redlevel42 Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2007 Location: South Georgia Posts: 310	"IF a gunsmith has blessed your gun as safe, try Polywad or RST for low pressure loads for vintage guns." No smokeless powder load, even the low-pressure offerings, are safe to shoot in a Damascus gun. __________________ Georgia on My Mind

June 4, 2009, 12:36 AM	#15
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	Briley is one of the best, if not the best, for sleeving work. He is a little pricey. Then again, you get what you pay for, as the saying goes. http://www.briley.com/index.asp?Page...S&Category=206 Last edited by TxGun; June 4, 2009 at 12:43 AM.

June 8, 2009, 12:07 PM	#17
Positrack Member Join Date: May 23, 2009 Location: Princeton, IL Posts: 16	For sake of argument, I will shamefully admit that when I was young(er) and (more) ignorant, I was given a well-worn Remington Model 1882 side-by-side with 32" damascus barrels by my grandpa. I didn't know anything about pressure differences between powder types or damascus barrels, and figured "a 12ga. is a 12 ga." I love the balance, smoothness, and simplicity of the gun, and did a LOT of shooting with it after I got it. I put boxes and boxes of deer slugs, magnum and high-velocity 00 buckshot, heavy high-velocity turkey loads, and just about any other nasty 2 3/4" shell I could find through it. I'm talking hundreds of high-brass loads over the course of several years, as well as MANY hundreds more heavy target loads (3DR 1 1/8oz). All modern ammunition of course. It never blew or bulged. I eventually took it to a gunsmith who said the barrels looked alright but that they were damascus steel and should not be used with modern ammo. Needless to say, I consider myself INCREDIBLY lucky not to have had a barrel burst (luckier than I deserved given the number of times I poked fate in the eye...). I also can't believe, looking back on it, that I shot a century old shotgun without getting it checked out first. All that said, I can't help but wonder if some of those old guns aren't stronger than they're given credit for. I have heard of barrels bursting on some of those old SxSs, and I'm certainly not suggesting you not worry about it, but just raising the question as to just how weak these barrels really are. Perhaps it's more a question of the quality of construction rather than the method? I really don't know much about these guns, but I'm just wondering based on my own limited research and experience. __________________ -Posi WTB: 870 Police Mag. to use as a reliable knockabout truck/camp/HD gun. Can be ugly as long as it's in good mechanical condition. Please reply if you have one for sale: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=359178

June 8, 2009, 04:55 PM	#20
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,980	On top of eveything else that has been said, black powder residue is extremely corrosive. When the gun was fired with BP, these corrosives were driven into the pores and voids of the damascus steel. It is very difficult to remove them 100%. I have no doubt a properly made and uncorroded damascus barrel would hold up under heavy modern loads, but unless you have your own Magnaflux machine, how would you ever really know the steel was stable? Sleeve the gun, use 20 gauge inserts, or hang it on the wall. Be safe. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

June 2, 2009, 05:25 PM	#2
knight0334 Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2006 Location: Brookville, PA Posts: 442	First would be to see if its a 2-3/4" or 2-1/2" chamber gun. Many of the old guns were shorter chamber guns. Crimped 2-3/4" shells will often fit in a 2-1/2" chamber, but will result in nasty events if fired. 2-1/2" and blackpowder shells http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=188

June 2, 2009, 05:54 PM	#3
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Damascus steel is made by braiding together "ribbons" of steel and then forge welding them together around a mandrel. The warning from years ago was: There are forge welded joints that cannot be seen with visual inspection that may not be continuous resulting in internal areas that are slowly rusting away the metal. That which passes pressure testing previously, may not always continue to maintain its strength. Some old timers concluded that Damascus barrels are an explosion waiting to happen...they did not recommend shootings such guns even with "appropriate loads." How much are your body parts worth to you?

June 2, 2009, 07:52 PM	#4
Topaz Junior Member Join Date: February 20, 2009 Posts: 14	Less and less as the years go by!!! So I should let my wife take the first couple shots?? They (the barrels) look flawless and could be lined to accept 20 ga. tubes but it would effect the balance of course and also $600 from my wallet.

June 2, 2009, 08:10 PM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Greetings Topaz, and welcome aboard, I haven't noticed "Damascus" loads in some time; but, I haven't been looking. I suspect the legal eagles have counseled the ammo manufacturers against making them because of potential liability issues.   I like the liner ideal. You might ask Jess Briley about some light weight shorty tubes.

June 2, 2009, 08:57 PM	#6
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	IF a gunsmith has blessed your gun as safe, try Polywad or RST for low pressure loads for vintage guns. If as is, it is not safe, getting it sleeved will let you shoot it with those loads. But, as mentioned, the chambers need to be determined.....you NEVER want to shoot 2-3/4 in 2-1/2 chambers......only bad things can happen from that. Good luck and have fun

June 2, 2009, 09:53 PM	#7
greenacres Member Join Date: March 30, 2008 Location: Iowa Posts: 17	I suggest you ask they guys on this forum http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php They shoot antique Damascus barreled shotguns all the time.

June 3, 2009, 09:29 AM	#10
Topaz Junior Member Join Date: February 20, 2009 Posts: 14	wow , you guys are full of it... information that is, thanks for all of it and I 'm checking out the double guns forums see if I can shoot some birds with gramp's shotgun in Ks this year.

June 3, 2009, 10:09 AM	#11
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Some folks do shoot selected Damascus barrelled shotguns with low pressure loads. A couple of years back, one of those optimists had their gun blow up on them at a major shoot. It proved fatal to both shotgun and shooter. In England, some old barrels have been reproofed and found to be sound. Shotguns and grenades have similar working pressures. IMO, Life's short enough. That Parker can be shot though. Briley will make some subgauge tubes so you can have an 8 lb 20 gauge if you so wish. T'were it mine, I'd conserve both wood and metal, hang it over the fireplace and admire it.

June 3, 2009, 10:19 AM	#12
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Sleeving it is another alternative to sub-gauge tubes and works well in older guns with enough barrel wall thickness

June 3, 2009, 11:40 PM	#14
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	If I were to fire a DOUBLE charge in my Browning I would want to have it be remote, like a LONG string to pull the trigger, VERY LONG string. I don't know if even a modern gun, made last week could handle a double charge. I remember a chat I had with one of the guys at the Ithaca factory in King Ferry. I believe he said they use 40% overcharges to prove their guns. I know many Damascus guns have been declared safe to shoot and they may in fact be just fine. When you consider HOW the barrel is made, many strips of steel and Iron twisted and welded together, then twisted and welded again then around a mandrell to form a barrel. I would guess, thousands of little individual welds in a Damascus barrel. What happens if one of these small welds lets go, how about the weld next to it and so on? I have often wondered if the rusting internally really stops. Even though you have Birmingham proof it today, will it still be safe next year because of microscopic rusting and weakening? You fellas that are willing to touch off a round, well, God bless you, you have bigger heuevos than me. I might fire one if it were sleeved, but certainly not without SOME safety net out there.

June 8, 2009, 11:25 AM	#16
Bitman Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 22	Topaz, Most of these guys mean well, but are very much misinformed about Parker Shotguns and Damascus barrels. I shoot 1000's of rounds a year in Damascus and Twist barrel Parkers. Go to the Parker website for the correct info. http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/

June 8, 2009, 05:01 PM	#21
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Purdey is making a new gun out of damascus - barrels AND action - very neat looking, but I'm sure I could buy a beach house for the price

June 9, 2009, 07:41 PM	#22
clang Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2009 Posts: 119	"Some folks do shoot selected Damascus barrelled shotguns with low pressure loads. A couple of years back, one of those optimists had their gun blow up on them at a major shoot. It proved fatal to both shotgun and shooter." Where was that??? Was it a British gun? I've got several old Remington SxSs. One old A grade 1894 has damascus barrels that I often shoot with modern ammo. I usually reload some low pressure loads myself, but can purchase a couple of varieties of low-recoil ammo that would fit the bill. This gun has had it's chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" before I purchased it. I've put at least 1,000 rounds through it. One issue with Damascus has already been stated - there can be damage to the barrels that is not clearly visable. If a gun were put away for a long time with Black Powder residue in the bore, it is possible to have localized rusting that would be only pinholes in the bore, but could compromise the integrity of the barrels. Another issue comes mainly from some of the British guns out there that have been used and refinished so many times that their barrel wall thickness has become dangerously thin. These can go kaboom just like any shotgun with barrel walls that are too thin, damascus or steel. But that leaves the question - how did they get too thin??? The Brits didn't buy the whole "not safe to shoot smokeless powder" story and just kept on shooting their damascus guns the past hundred years or so. A refinish every 10-20 years or so of hard shooting and the gun is back looking good as new. If they had to polish out some spots - so be it. If the barrels get too thin - it's time to rebarrel or resleeve the gun. Unfortunaltey, some unscrupolous dealers also have sold these guns, especially on the export market, without making proper repairs or notifying the buyer. Sound Damascus barrels are every bit as strong (or stronger) than the steel barrels of their time. There have been modern enthusiasts who have tested damascus barrels to breaking point and they have performed admirably (one test I recall is from the Finding Out for Myself column in the Double Gun Journal about 10 years ago). There is a working hypothesis that the warnings about smokeless powder were actually started by the gun manufacturers to help sell guns with steel barrels, as they had recently become easier to produce/less expensive than the highly labor intensive damascus barrels. It's hard to describe the beauty of a damascus barrel unless you've examined a fine conditioned speciman up close. It truely is a thing of beauty, so how else were the gun manufacturers going to get their customers to purchase the much plainer looking and cheaper to manufacture steel barrels? DISCLAIMER: The info contained in this post is worth what you paid for it - absolutely nothing. I don't recommend shooting any old guns, Damascus or not. Just send those old guns to me so that I can properly dispose of them myself. If you are dumb enough to blow up a gun in your face it is your own damn fault.

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