Is there a cap

Nate1778 · April 29, 2009, 06:37 PM

shortage as well? I know primers in the reloading world are tough as hens teeth to find, just wandering if the same applies to caps. Seams midway and Cabelas are both on back order. Do places like Wally world carry BP caps, I know they stopped the primers, but have scene black powder stuff at my local wally world. Also as a side note, I reload shotgun shells, are black powder 209 primers the same as a normal 209?

Last but not least, I will not be able to acquire black powder till June, what is the end all substitute til then that is readily available at the stores. this would be for a .44 and .36

qwik · April 30, 2009, 09:26 AM

Wally world only carry BP thru winter for hunters , i was told from a sales clerk

Raider2000 · April 30, 2009, 10:24 AM

As far as the Percussion caps are concerned, many places are having a hard time keeping up with supply, I can't tell ya much about the 209 primers except that I think the ones that you would normally use for shotgung shell reloading is hotter & that they tend to lift the projectile off the charge just prior to full ignition but others may be able to ring in on this to verify this.

To me the best & most redily available Black Powder sub. is Pyrodex because it isn't as finicky as 777 can be on loading pressure, has a very similar pressure curve as real BP, & most places that sell BP subs will have that on hand.

AdmiralB · April 30, 2009, 11:13 AM

No problems here, Gamaliel has CCI, Remington, and RWS...I just bought Remington #10s ($37.00 per 1000), I got a 5000pc case to spread the hazmat charge around. Had them in stock, shipped same day.

UtahHunting · April 30, 2009, 11:16 AM

Around here in Utah there are plenty of #11 caps, but #10's are almost non existant. Cabela's actually had 2 100 count tins in and I picked them both up but everyone else is sold out. I have not tried #11's on my revolvers yet although I do have some.

I have regular 209 shotgun primers for my Knight rifle. I was told a 209 is a 209. They all work. Take that for what its worth.

arcticap · May 3, 2009, 02:07 AM

Toby Bridges came up with a method to measure the relative strength of different brands of 209 primers by shooting a patched .32 ball out of an inline without any powder at all, and he then chronographed the average velocity of 5 shots of each. It illustrates that even 209 primers are not all the same:

With a variety of the primers, I headed for the range with the Green Mountain .32 in-line rifle and my chronograph. I started by snapping a couple of primers to get a little base fouling in the bore. Then I wiped the bore with four clean dry patches, exactly how I would wipe the bore between each and every shot. I figured this would give me the same amount of resistance for each and every primer popped behind the well greased patch and light ball. And for each primer tested, I fired 5 shots across the chronograph, then eliminated the highest and lowest velocity readings. The velocities of the remaining three shots were then averaged. And here are the velocities that were recorded for the following No. 209 primers...including the new "Muzzleloading Primers".

Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s.
Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML.....244 f.p.s.
Remington 209 Kleanbore ML ........318 f.p.s.
Remington STS...........................338 f.p.s.
Std. Winchester No. 209A ..............336 f.p.s.
Std. Remington No. 209 .................341 f.p.s.
Cheddite No. 209 ...........................347 f.p.s.
CCI 209M......................................379 f.p.s.
Federal No. 209A ...........................381 f.p.s.

And for comparison, we also ran the Precision Rifle "Vari-Flame" through this test, using both Winchester "Small Pistol" and "Small Rifle" primers.
Winchester WSP "Small Pistol" ........116 f.p.s.
Winchester WSR "Small Rifle" .........143 f.p.s.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/technical3.html

mykeal · May 3, 2009, 06:18 PM

Did Bridges publish the chronograph statistics - that is, what is the error term for each measurement?

robhof · May 3, 2009, 07:09 PM

Wally World is a good place to stock up on caps and Pyrodex; the day after B/p season ends in your area. I learned this by chance a few years ago and have been there diligently ever after. They don't keep hunting supplies after the season and the cost of returns is more than selling at the discount areas. The caps and powder the 1st time I found out were at 50% off retail and I stocked up some. This year the discount was only 30%, but still a bargain and I have enough primers to hold my own re-enactment.

arcticap · May 4, 2009, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Did Bridges publish the chronograph statistics - that is, what is the error term for each measurement?

I don't know. They're only the conclusions of his own methodology and observations since his last article update states that the Remington STS primers are apparently hotter without producing excessive pressure, and that they produce a lot less primer carbon left in the action than when shooting with the CCI 209M or Federal 209A.

mykeal · May 4, 2009, 12:54 PM

I appreciate your posting the numbers. It's interesting information.

However, the sample sizes are very small, and without the error statistics the data doesn't tell me very much. Chronograph data should always include the error statistics; it's empirical data subject to wide variations in results just from the instrumentation itself, to say nothing of test conditions and technique.

arcticap · May 4, 2009, 06:49 PM

I agree.
What I surmise from the info. is that most 209's are the same, except for the Winchester 777 & 209ML primers that are made weaker to help eliminate the 777 crud ring, and the CCI 209M and Federal 209A magnums which are made hotter to work better with the Blackhorn smokeless substitute and magnum shotshells.
The remainder of the velocity readings are too similar to each other to draw any real conclusions or to make any distinctions between them.

Gomezy3k · May 5, 2009, 02:50 PM

I used to buy RWS #11 caps and Musket Caps from a local muzzle loading shop... Unfortunately the dang thing went out of business. I have tried Remington, and CCI and they suck... I cannot get the dang thing to stay on the nipples when I am shooting... I have crushed the dang things almost flat to try and make them force fit and they fall off... I have used the little plastic rings and while they do make the cap stay on, they are a pain to use...

The only caps sold here now are the Remington and CCI's. I am almost out of the RWS caps and hate to picture what will happen when I run out...

The closing of Buckskin Bill's Beaver bag has really screwed over the muzzle loaders here in Vegas... You can get tons of the in-line muzzle loading modern stuff but nothing for the real muzzle loader...

Is there a place that sells the RWS in bulk? I also am thinking of trying to get some bulk Black Powder but I need to figure out some sort of storage for it first... I imagine having 20 or 30 pounds of 3FF and 2FF and 5 or 6 pounds of 4F might get some people upset if they knew I had it... LOL

arcticap · May 5, 2009, 04:08 PM

This outfit lists the RWS 1075's:

http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/home.php?cat=351

Mid South has RWS 1075 Plus which are the magnum caps:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...3=%43%41%50%53

Dixie lists RWS 1075's & they may ship a small number without hazmat fees:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=3722

April 30, 2009, 09:26 AM	#2
qwik Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: nc Posts: 152	Wally world only carry BP thru winter for hunters , i was told from a sales clerk __________________ havejeepwilltravel [0lllllll0]

May 3, 2009, 02:07 AM	#6
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Toby Bridges came up with a method to measure the relative strength of different brands of 209 primers by shooting a patched .32 ball out of an inline without any powder at all, and he then chronographed the average velocity of 5 shots of each. It illustrates that even 209 primers are not all the same: With a variety of the primers, I headed for the range with the Green Mountain .32 in-line rifle and my chronograph. I started by snapping a couple of primers to get a little base fouling in the bore. Then I wiped the bore with four clean dry patches, exactly how I would wipe the bore between each and every shot. I figured this would give me the same amount of resistance for each and every primer popped behind the well greased patch and light ball. And for each primer tested, I fired 5 shots across the chronograph, then eliminated the highest and lowest velocity readings. The velocities of the remaining three shots were then averaged. And here are the velocities that were recorded for the following No. 209 primers...including the new "Muzzleloading Primers". Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s. Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML.....244 f.p.s. Remington 209 Kleanbore ML ........318 f.p.s. Remington STS...........................338 f.p.s. Std. Winchester No. 209A ..............336 f.p.s. Std. Remington No. 209 .................341 f.p.s. Cheddite No. 209 ...........................347 f.p.s. CCI 209M......................................379 f.p.s. Federal No. 209A ...........................381 f.p.s. And for comparison, we also ran the Precision Rifle "Vari-Flame" through this test, using both Winchester "Small Pistol" and "Small Rifle" primers. Winchester WSP "Small Pistol" ........116 f.p.s. Winchester WSR "Small Rifle" .........143 f.p.s. http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/technical3.html Last edited by arcticap; May 4, 2009 at 02:08 AM.

May 3, 2009, 07:09 PM	#8
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof Wally World is a good place to stock up on caps and Pyrodex; the day after B/p season ends in your area. I learned this by chance a few years ago and have been there diligently ever after. They don't keep hunting supplies after the season and the cost of returns is more than selling at the discount areas. The caps and powder the 1st time I found out were at 50% off retail and I stocked up some. This year the discount was only 30%, but still a bargain and I have enough primers to hold my own re-enactment.

April 29, 2009, 06:37 PM	#1
Nate1778 Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Louisville Ky Posts: 312	Is there a cap shortage as well? I know primers in the reloading world are tough as hens teeth to find, just wandering if the same applies to caps. Seams midway and Cabelas are both on back order. Do places like Wally world carry BP caps, I know they stopped the primers, but have scene black powder stuff at my local wally world. Also as a side note, I reload shotgun shells, are black powder 209 primers the same as a normal 209? Last but not least, I will not be able to acquire black powder till June, what is the end all substitute til then that is readily available at the stores. this would be for a .44 and .36 __________________ "And finally, the Baby Bear looked and he said, "Somebody's sleeping in my bed, and the bastard's still there!" But Goldylocks had a Remington semi-automatic, with a scope and a hair-trigger!"

April 30, 2009, 10:24 AM	#3
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 719	As far as the Percussion caps are concerned, many places are having a hard time keeping up with supply, I can't tell ya much about the 209 primers except that I think the ones that you would normally use for shotgung shell reloading is hotter & that they tend to lift the projectile off the charge just prior to full ignition but others may be able to ring in on this to verify this. To me the best & most redily available Black Powder sub. is Pyrodex because it isn't as finicky as 777 can be on loading pressure, has a very similar pressure curve as real BP, & most places that sell BP subs will have that on hand.

April 30, 2009, 11:13 AM	#4
AdmiralB Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 88	No problems here, Gamaliel has CCI, Remington, and RWS...I just bought Remington #10s ($37.00 per 1000), I got a 5000pc case to spread the hazmat charge around. Had them in stock, shipped same day.

April 30, 2009, 11:16 AM	#5
UtahHunting Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2009 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 428	Around here in Utah there are plenty of #11 caps, but #10's are almost non existant. Cabela's actually had 2 100 count tins in and I picked them both up but everyone else is sold out. I have not tried #11's on my revolvers yet although I do have some. I have regular 209 shotgun primers for my Knight rifle. I was told a 209 is a 209. They all work. Take that for what its worth.

May 3, 2009, 06:18 PM	#7
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Did Bridges publish the chronograph statistics - that is, what is the error term for each measurement?

May 4, 2009, 12:54 PM	#10
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	I appreciate your posting the numbers. It's interesting information. However, the sample sizes are very small, and without the error statistics the data doesn't tell me very much. Chronograph data should always include the error statistics; it's empirical data subject to wide variations in results just from the instrumentation itself, to say nothing of test conditions and technique.

May 4, 2009, 06:49 PM	#11
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	I agree. What I surmise from the info. is that most 209's are the same, except for the Winchester 777 & 209ML primers that are made weaker to help eliminate the 777 crud ring, and the CCI 209M and Federal 209A magnums which are made hotter to work better with the Blackhorn smokeless substitute and magnum shotshells. The remainder of the velocity readings are too similar to each other to draw any real conclusions or to make any distinctions between them. Last edited by arcticap; May 4, 2009 at 06:57 PM.

May 5, 2009, 02:50 PM	#12
Gomezy3k Junior Member Join Date: May 1, 2005 Posts: 10	I used to buy RWS #11 caps and Musket Caps from a local muzzle loading shop... Unfortunately the dang thing went out of business. I have tried Remington, and CCI and they suck... I cannot get the dang thing to stay on the nipples when I am shooting... I have crushed the dang things almost flat to try and make them force fit and they fall off... I have used the little plastic rings and while they do make the cap stay on, they are a pain to use... The only caps sold here now are the Remington and CCI's. I am almost out of the RWS caps and hate to picture what will happen when I run out... The closing of Buckskin Bill's Beaver bag has really screwed over the muzzle loaders here in Vegas... You can get tons of the in-line muzzle loading modern stuff but nothing for the real muzzle loader... Is there a place that sells the RWS in bulk? I also am thinking of trying to get some bulk Black Powder but I need to figure out some sort of storage for it first... I imagine having 20 or 30 pounds of 3FF and 2FF and 5 or 6 pounds of 4F might get some people upset if they knew I had it... LOL

May 5, 2009, 04:08 PM	#13
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	This outfit lists the RWS 1075's: http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/home.php?cat=351 Mid South has RWS 1075 Plus which are the magnum caps: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...3=%43%41%50%53 Dixie lists RWS 1075's & they may ship a small number without hazmat fees: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=3722