If worried about defense of self and others, how much time martial arts training?

[grymster2007]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

Keep the anecdotal 'war stories' down to a practical level. Send them off in the right direction for some good info and research materials.

Good point!

Personally, I’m not a big fan of martial arts and think only the very best-trained few really gain the skills necessary to likely prevail over a determined (or crazed) foe that gets the drop on them. I’m afraid that the people buying the $3000 black belt have purchased nothing more than misguided self-confidence that may even lead them into situations that demonstrate their folly…. or worse. I’m also convinced that excessive pumping of weights and seeing oneself all bulked up in the mirror is at least equally dangerous for the same reasons.

IMO, while not quite so glamorous, wrestling, as a hand-to-hand SD is superior to the punching/kicking/throwing-based martial arts.

My advice:
1. Build endurance.
2. Build strength without bulk.
3. Take hand-to-hand SD classes, work on the techniques.
4. Don’t let any of the first three get you to thinking you’re a tough guy.
5. Stay out of situations where trouble will find you (bars, clubs, house parties, etc.).
6. Get the hell away from an attacker if you can. Exit the situation if possible, even if it means looking like a coward.

[grymster2007]

I have watched so many fights that I feel that my family is safe. If that is not enough, I like to watch fight videos on youtube and break.com.

A friendly word of caution. Watching fights is absolutely NOT the same as being in them and thinking that watching them makes you a better fighter is dangerous.

[XD40Tac]

I'm six feet and 200 pounds and lift weights on a regular basis. I do not want to engage in hand-to-hand of any sort. I have back problems and one quick turn the wrong way and I'm hit by paralyzing pain and would be out of commission and unable to walk let alone fight.

Hence, the forty

[XD40Tac]

I always like it when some guy puts on a prelimanary martial arts display in a movie to intimdate someone who pulls a gun and blows them away

[Covert Mission]

Also, I suspect Alexander Karelin, or Ron Morris, who have tendons and grip similar to most hydraulic vices...Another quick story, from Franco Columbo's bio. Columbo was first a 35-0 boxer, who quit after nearly killing someone to become a power lifter, then body builder.

Man, I'd never want to get into it with someone like that. Like flighting a 250# python...fuggedaboudit! I have a freind who's a 52 y/o ex-cop adn active bodybuilder, deadlifts 500+ w/o straps. Grip like a hydraulic vice like you say...he grabs you, good luck getting ungrabbed!

[StuMan]

How much training, Just enough to learn technique and the rest is up to you. Since we cant carry in Canukistan I have been mugged (attempted) at knife point and circle booted in another alteration. Fighting is a last resort and if you can carry do so.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by grymster2007

Watching fights is absolutely NOT the same as being in them

While I agree 100% with your observation, you realize, don't you, that you're speaking heresy to thousands of guys from McDojos.

In the end, that's the real problem. We take these young kids, give them just enough knowledge to get them into real trouble, tell them they are invincible and then let them watch a Rambo movie. It is flatly irresponsible, culpable and self-serving to send a younger unschooled fighter (who won't back down) up against a drunken cowboy when the boy thinks he's an equal.

When Michael Keaton was still doing stand-up, he once told a joke about facing a mugger. He put his hands up in the typical "karate kid" pose and told the mugger her knew ju jitso, kung fu, karate and twenty other Japanese words.

Perhaps we should not blame the kids. Perhaps we should start using the epithet "McSensei."

[grymster2007]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

you're speaking heresy to thousands of guys from McDojos.

I know and I’m not doing this to get people jacked up. I speak from experience here and I’m trying to help these guys out. I’ve seen it dozens of times where a guy has a bit of training in MA, whether boxing, karate, judo or taekwondo, and through misguided self-confidence, they get into a scrap that they should have walked away from. When they run into a guy that just flat knows how to fight, they get hurt and sometimes real bad.

These days, it’s even more dangerous. As a young lad, I got into a lot of scraps and while I did face a few knives and guns , those were different times and most guys back then settled matters with their fists. Seems that these days, people would just as soon shoot you as get a knuckle bloody.

I don’t know the answers. Maybe get some training, but put at least as much effort into avoiding the situations where one might get into a confrontation. I don’t care who you are, I can guarantee that there’s some wiry 5’4” guy out there who can absolutely kick the crap out of you. I’ve seen it and I’ve lived it. And these days he might not want to get blood on his shoes, so he might just shoot you.

Just some thoughts from a late-forties guy who’s seen and experienced a lot of fighting, has seen the times change and the dangers rise. Hope nobody takes offense.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by grymster2007

These days, it’s even more dangerous...I don’t know the answers.

I'm in the same boat. Having said that, I have the same needs for safety and security all TFL members do. And to be honest, we're all getting older.

I'm sure you remember the old missile idea of The Cold War. It was called 'MAD,' meaning mutually assured destruction. We also call this idea a "Pyrric Victory." In simple terms it means that if you are foolish enough to attack me, you will also suffer.

In many ways, I do the same thing.

I figure/know that someday I might have to face a younger, faster, stronger man with far superior fighting skills. Set your ego aside, we all know that any of us could be laying on a cold floor begging, "no mas, no mas."

It is here I use Kirk's answer to Kobayashi Maru. I cheat.

The one thing I can do better than most is sharpen. I put samurai edges on my pocket knives. Oh, I may in fact get knocked down, but to do this an aggressor will have numerous tendons severed and at least one puncture wound dangerously close to a femoral artery.

Why do I mention this? Here's a dirty little secret. I'm not the only 'boomer who's going to do this.

Why sould I get beat up because you want to dramatize the skill of your karate belt? Why should my teeth get knocked out?

"Tourist, you're a slimy, scheming, cheatin' poltroon! You intend to maim a younger guy who's spent countless hours in a dojo! And you used a second, hidden knife"

Yes, I will. As millions will. As every stevedore, biker and cowboy will. You will lay in a hospital bed undergoing numerous surgeries with just your shiny new black belt to comfort you.

Assaulting a man is serious business. And you're going to have to come to terms that in 75% of the time it will be you laying on the floor.

[Socrates]

I have no illusions about my immortality, or prowness, at this point. I'm constantly reminded, on a daily basis, as I watch college and even ex-pro basketball players, and even some high school kids, of their superior physical strength.

That said, the oddest thing I find in youth is thinking that they will win, due to their youth. Having shook Ed Parker's hand, and watched a fairly old Tino Temescululo spar with
my then Sensei, some people retain, and refine their art to maximize their effectiveness. Tino kicked my sensei in the groin, lightning quick, and it worked, putting down a 6'2" 240 pound, lightning quick, former World Heavyweight Full Contact champ.

Point being, as you age, your targets, and situation changes. Old guys have to go for targets that instantly stop, or disable the attacker. Also, for this reason, use OG's want to avoid conflicts at all cost.

I find as I get older, and have to deal constantly with conflicts between large, aggressive, adrenalin pumped players that I'm developing ways of dealing, or defusing, potential situations that I didn't have prior. Problem is, conflict management isn't a high enough priority in most martial arts schools...

I'm looking at every non-violent method of avoiding violence I can, and, every weapon possible, at this point. Pepper Spray is a constant carry, ordering some new holsters, so I can quite possibly always have a gun with me, even if it's a mouse gun.

Wonder if Jack can build a .480 Ruger on a Titanium J Frame???

[Wayward_Son]

I'm a Shotokan guy. I marked my third year in December.

After my first year, I thought to myself, "You know, I'm pretty inexperienced and new to this karate thing, but in the last year I've learned enough to be able to surprise somebody."

Another year went by, and I thought to myself, "I've gained a lot of confidence, I've learned some new skills while refining my basic techniques, and I think I'm proficient enough to defend myself if the need arises."

In December, my third year came, and I thought/think to myself, "Wow, I've learned a lot; my basics are getting better, my precision is getting good, my speed is getting good, and my focus and alertness are much improved. I'm a better fighter than I was three years ago. I need to be more careful now than before about keeping my temper in check and only acting in defense of myself or others, because if I had to I could put a serious hurt on somebody."

I am testing for my Shodan (first black belt) in June, if all goes accordingly.

And a year from now, next December, I will probably be looking back at my foolishness as a colored belt and realizing just how much I still have to learn.

The point is that you can never be too prepared. The more martial arts practice (be it karate, kung fu, judo, wrestling, boxing, or some hodgepodge of different arts) you can study, the better you will become and the more prepared you will be if that time should come. Real improvement requires consistent training. I think two days a week is the minimum. Three is good. Four, every week, is excellent. More than that is probably more than most people care to train, but for the person who can commit themselves to such a regimen great things will happen.

To think that you can take a six-month course in boxing, karate, or Brazilian ju jitsu and be "competent" is not only naive, it's foolish and can possibly get you into trouble.

So what's my point?

At this point in my training, I'm thinking that three years of consistent study is the minimum. Others will tell you different. Hell, a year ago I would have told you that two years is the minimum. Boxers or wrestlers may tell you that six months of six-days-a-week boxing or wrestling in a studio under a good instructor is enough. Aikido guys will probably tell you that five years is the minimum, and you're looking at closer to ten if you want to really learn the art to the point where you can apply the skills.

So yeah. Three years. At least!

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Wayward_Son

At this point in my training, I'm thinking that three years of consistent study is the minimum.

Responsible advice. One of the points I make here is that we are the good guys. We would treat each other fairly, even in a financial situation of selling a firearm. That should be the point of our debate.

To that end, this bubble of being civil ends when you shut off the computer.

I expect to have a felon shoot me or shoot at me during the commission of a crime. It is under those circumstances that we must use everything we have learned to seek safety. If weight training, conditioning or MA gives you an enhanced tool for survival it is worth every penny you have paid.

But that's if you get an honorable chance.

Let's examine our urban living situation. You can be shot and killed by a felon for simply witnessing a crime.

Now, if you're a consenting adult, have a few years of in depth training with a knowledgeable sensei, then you can make any choice you wish. I'm offering advice, not demanding that you alter your codes against your will.

But it grinds me that our light banter here might induce young up and coming folks to believe we all have superior skills and will crush our enemies.

As I said, I intend to cheat, maim if I have to. I don't see why the felon should go home safe while my wife mourns.

And so to young guys we should make the case that if an TFL member might cheat then a felon certainly will. To those who might disagree I would ask only that they google "Snopes" under the heading of 'knife wounds.'

[Socrates]

Third year////??????

I started in about 1976, and, really stopped in about 1997, yet feel like I just started getting good about my 15th year.

[Crow61]

There are some folks, like myself that have physical problems that won't allow us to excersize, take martial arts lessons, etc. A hangun is really our only means of protection. But, common sense and good judgement SHOULD keep us out of most situations.

[golf97]

I would have to say that it is good to be able to defend yourself as best you can, armed or not.

There are situations where I might not be armed and attacked, and I would hope that my training might give me the upper hand.

If I am armed, I'm not going to the ground where some meth head on adrenaline or otherwise maniacal freak can get to my weapon and use it against me.

So in conclusion, martial arts are great for the times you can't carry. You said you were a teacher, so I doubt you carry to work. I'd get some boxing and wrestling in if I could, maybe some BJJ. You sound like a very fit person (judging by your workout regiment), and that is possibly the best defense. If you've ever been in a real fight, you know how tiring grappling can be.

I also understand what its like to be a teacher (whole family of them), so do what you can when you can, and thanks for taking on one of the most important and underappreciated/paid jobs in this beautiful country. You don't get much free time other than the summer.

On a side note that is completely unrelated, try and balance out all of the liberal-president/country-bashing-socialistic-communism that is being taught in our schools, or at least teach an unbiased history and view of this country (what I suggest). I've seen it start as early as elementary school, and its tearing the future of our country in these young ones to shreds.

[Wayward_Son]

"I started in about 1976, and, really stopped in about 1997, yet feel like I just started getting good about my 15th year."

Socrates, that's exactly my point.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Socrates

I started in about 1976, and, really stopped in about 1997, yet feel like I just started getting good about my 15th year.

During this debate I also felt that "when" should be discussed as well as "how."

I know how to break your jaw with a baseball bat. I need to know when that skill should be applied.

As a teenage boy I carried a stiletto 24/7. Thinking about how irresponsible "that boy" was I'm glad "he" never got into any serious trouble.

My idea of a knife during that period was a tool you used to stab somebody.

One of the positive things my wife (a teacher) points out is the return to a calm discipline a student regains after he joins a local dojo. I hear stories from their parents over coffee that reflect the same idea. They use phrases like, "It was the best thing I ever did."

If a student sticks it out for three years, earns some belts as a positive re-enforcement, I believe he will be a better man.

[Socrates]

Well, this has me on my Tai Chi lecture. Tai Chi, or Hsing I, any of the internal arts, have a huge advantage. By moving slowly, you develop the weakest muscles in your body, which are the weakest muscles in the chain that determine your ability to kick, punch, etc. Put simply you punch with muscles that start at your toes, and go all the way through your body. The weakest in that link is going to determine the maximum force you can apply.
Also, the internal arts develop the ability to focus, and channel chi, as do the external arts. You can reach the same ability, using both arts. Problem is, using external arts, the body tends to become too battered through either contact or bruising to function for a prolonged period of time.
Also, the Tai Chi approach teaches you to relax, and, by relaxing your opposing muscles you can move REALLY way faster.
As for teaching, I did 2 years of a 3 year program designed for special education, Project Pipeline, in the Kali. What I learned is the system is so screwed up, that you are lied to by principals, misrepresenting the positions you are offered, and, the work load is double a regular teacher. It's really a lottery if you are lucky enough to get a good principal, situation, and make it through the credential program.
I've done long term subbing, and teaching on an intern credential since 1999, and, my conclusion is it's not something I want to continue, at least not in Kali public schools. Pay is too little, stress and evaluations dependent totally on political correctness, and your principal.

I'm doing it now because my SO is out of work, it's a job, and I need one, and I just haven't had a chance to really find something better, though I'm working on that. When I walk out the door, I leave the job, since I'm a sub, and, that's fine, since I would obsess over how best to teach, and, found myself working 80 hours a week, with no life, for little money.

By the way, I was a real punk, though gifted, as a martial arts student. I was the guy the black belts loved to spar, since I could stay with them, in full contact, even at lower belts. My promotions from orange to black were based on my fighting ability, not katas, as everyone else pretty much went. I was given my first, and the only black belt I still have, based on my fighting skills.

Same thing happened with Shihan Hiranno in Hawaii.
Why? My teacher sensei Clinton Mosley took fighting techniques, free style, and slowed them down, much like doing Tai Chi. This developed excellent, powerful full contact skills, and fighting skills, in a relatively short period of time.

Also helped having a Si Lum 7th degree, and, a Wing Chun 2nd degree, who's specialty was breaking stuff, in the same dojo.

Not to mention training with the best non-pro boxers in the United states, at Ft. Ord, at the time..