My Brass appears to be too flared

[craighmarshall]

Okay, help me out.
I fired new manufactured 9mm brass out of my XDM9 and pick up mine as well as any other brass on the ground. Mostly though it is mine.

I have been having a problem with the bullet seating into the brass and than slipping down. Tried the usual
1. Checking to make sure the die sits on the brass holder and than counter clock die one full time. Than I seat the bullet and pull it out to measure. Do this until I get it to approx 1.14, push a little in the measuring phase and than it simply drops in. It appears the crimp on the seat die is not doing anything.
2. Is there a die that I can use to reset the flare prior to decap die?

Thanks

[wncchester]

You are following the four step sequence of

1. resize (+ decap)
2. expand/flare (+ recap)
3. powder charge
4. bullet seat (+ crimp)?

If the sizer actually resizes and the expander isn't overly large all you should need from the crimper is to remove the flare.

[engineermike]

I only flair the brass just enough to get the bullet started. After the bullet is seated I have no need to use any crimp.

[ammo.crafter]

Check your seating die. I assume you're using a four die set. #1 removes the primer and expands the neck, #2 seats new primer and drops powder, #3 runs bullet into case and #4 final seating and shell constriction.

It appears you are not constricting your rounds at the final reloading stage.

[dmazur]

If you are using a Lee 4-die set -

Set includes:

* Carbide Factory Crimp Die
* Powder Through Expanding Die
* Bullet Seat & Feed Die
* Carbide Sizing Die
* Shellholder
* Powder measure and charge table


The first die to be used is the carbide sizing die, which also deprimes. Second die would be powder through expanding die. Third would be bullet seat. Fourth would be carbide factory crimp.

While I don't have Lee dies, I understand their function can be a little "different". For example, Lee claims their bullet seating die makes a taper crimp die unnecessary, as their expander does minimal expansion.

Nevertheless, you have to use a sizing die.

Bullet tension is controlled by the sizing die, not by the crimp die. In fact, while there are many happy users of the FCD, there are also those who report brass spring back and bullets looser than before the FCD was used!

I would suggest checking resistance to setback immediately after seating the bullet in a sized and charged case, and then again after using the FCD. If it gets looser, you are experiencing brass springback. The FCD is making the lead bullet diameter smaller and the lead doesn't spring back like the brass does.

Edit -

You didn't describe how you have the sizing die set. If it is a carbide die, it needs to be set to just barely touch the shellholder. If you have backed this die out, you aren't going to get proper resizing.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Craigmarshall

1. Checking to make sure the die sits on the brass holder and than counter clock die one full time.

Why are you turning the die back out of its proper position? Run the ram up with the shell holder but not brass. Screw the sizing die in until it makes firm contact with the should. Lock it in place and use it. When actual brass goes up into the die, the force stretches the press slightly, which is plenty of relief for the die.

See the Lee help videos, here, but especially this one.

Finally, don't use R-P brass. It is famous for the loose mouth trick.

[craighmarshall]

The problem that I am having is the Feeder/Expander Die. I have set this forward to where the brass shoulder jut kisses the die. I have recessed this back through trial and error to the point where the charge disk does not reach the opening to drop the charge. This was done to try and find where the expander (flare) works best.

When I have found this point, the brass goes over to the Seating die. Sometimes I have to guide the bullet into the die during the ram as the flare is minimal. When it seats, the bullet should be a COL of 1.14. But than the bullet is loose enough that the weight or the expansion of the brass allows the bullet to fall or twist in my fingers. I will take the bullet out and check the final measurement. Sometimes (most of the time), the calipers can push the bullet in and it drops. I do check for twist and how much finger pressure to cause the drop. NOT MUCH EFFORT. Not sure what the crimp is really doing in this die if it is doing anything.

If I do get this far it goes into the Crimper. But I am most likely over crimping as I see a bulge in the brass under the bullet base.

NOTES: I do notice that the brass I pick up, either my own or whatever else is on the ground, I can put a bullet in the mouth with no problems. Could the brass be stretched not only at the mouth but along the entire wall? If so, how do you bring the brass back to working specs?

Think I need to work out the Expander/Feeder Die and get that straightened out. Not sure what the expander really does and how it goes about expanding the mouth? Could the expander get damaged even if it is a carbide die set? Does it go into the mouth and possibly stretch the side wall out as well?
Once I get that understood and fixed, the seating die/crimp should work correctly. But I am not sure what is happening with the Crimp part in the seating die. Does it push in just the tip of the mouth, or a little more along the side wall? Can the crimp get damaged if it is a carbide die?
Lastly, if I get the two dies straighted out, I should have no real need for the Crimper Die except for minimal added pressure.

Hope I made sense

Thanks everyone for the input.

[craighmarshall]

I am sorry guys, I did not answer a question asked.

According to the instructions from Lee, I am to drop the die onto the shell holder until they just touch, Than I am to do a full turn counter clockwise.

I will re-read but I have looked at it a dozen times.
There is one die, that calls for three full counter clock turns. I will check the instructions that came with the die again

[Doby45]

The issue here is your sizing/depriming die. It is not squeezing the brass back to an unfired state. You need to size your brass and then measure to find out if the sizing die is doing it's job. Forget about the expander/powder thru die as of now, you problem is happening before that station.

[craighmarshall]

OH Yea...... I think you may be right on. I only consider the Decapper for just that. Never thought of it as Sizing the brass.


THANKS

[wncchester]

First step:

"1. resize (+ decap) "

[Unclenick]

Craigmarshal,

Your sizing die setup description is incorrect. Again, look at the brief Lee help video on the sizing die, here. The instruction they give is to screw the die in to make firm contact with the shell holder, then turn the die in deeper by another 1/4 turn (clockwise looking down from above the die). That extra quarter turn is to allow for the spring in the press I mentioned. Their press in the video is one of their cast aluminum presses. Aluminum has twice as much elasticity as iron for a given thickness under the same force.

For an iron or steel press, you can just leave the die where it contacts the shell holder firmly, or turn it in about 1/8 turn beyond the contact point for compressed contact. When the ram is sizing a case at the top of its stroke (ram up, handle down), look from the side for a crack of light between the die and shell holder around the case. If you see a light crack, turn the die in a little at a time until it just disappears. Presses can take a little stretching at the top of the stroke, so don't be afraid to allow a little squeezing between the die and shell holder to occur. Just not a lot.

Different brands of brass have different wall thicknesses. They all go into the same sizing die diameter, so those with thicker walls come out tighter on the inside than those with thinner walls. The expander is supposed to widen the tighter ones just enough so they all end up with about the same inside diameter for holding onto the bullet. It should be around one or two thousandths smaller than the bullet diameter.

It is possible your expander is too large? If you cannot force a bullet into a case that just came out of the (properly adjusted) sizer, but can push it in after it comes out of the expander, contact Lee and they will fix it for you. If you are mechanically inclined and have a large enough drill chuck to hold it, you can spin the expander it while you play some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper over it to narrow it a thousandth or so and see how that works?

A word of caution: If your cases have the R-P headstamp, none of the above may work with standard dies that work fine with all other brands of brass. Remington (R-P stands for Remington-Peters) brass has particularly thin walls at the mouth and tends to be so hard and springy that a standard sizing die cannot always resize it enough to hold the bullet. I simply throw R-P away and use almost any other brand for pistol. I use Starline or Top Brass for match loads. However, even for R-P, if you cannot push a bullet down into your case after sizing and before expanding, then you are resizing enough and the expander is expanding a little too wide.

Please adjust your sizing die correctly, per the first two paragraphs, If in doubt, you can always talk to Lee on the phone. Try loading a case headstamped Winchester, Win, WCC, Federal, FC, PMC, CCI, Speer, LC, Star—, Top Brass, TZZ, or IMI that you find at the range. Anything but R-P or steel Wolf cases, and see if you still have the problem? If so, then the expander needs to be shrunk.

If you are not crimping in the seating die, you will need the separate crimp die to completely clear the flare. Failing to do so can cause jams and feed failures.

[craighmarshall]

Thanks everyone.... By skipping the re-sizing (bringing the die it proper postion), I was simply just decapping and going onto the next die. Already in trouble because vthe brass was stretched out. That is why the bullet never really sat snug, but rather slipped further in.

1. Correct the decapper as noted above
2. Re-Read the expander die instructions and check with powder disk.
3. Read the Seating Die instructions again and check for COL and slight crimp. Put under magnify glass to see if flare has been removed.
4. See if Crimp Die is needed. If so Re-read instructions and watch for over bulge

That should make me a happy camper

[craighmarshall]

SO SIMPLE, BUT WHAT A NIGHTMARE. PROVES WHY THIS FORUM IS SO IMPORTANT.


THANKS EVERYONE for their input.
I now have a Decapping die that Resizes Brass and verified (+1/8th turn clock wise).
Reset the Charging/Expander Die (Recessed One Full Turn according to instructions).
Reset the Seating Die (recessed Three full turns per the instructions)
Reset the Crimp Die (Set to Brass shoulder and adjusted down with the upper screw to just snug and light crimp)

COL 1.138 consistant
Crimp at top of brass with no Bulge under the Bullet seat inside.

Now I can pull all my BRASS FU's and start loading again.

[Doby45]

Good job hanging in there brother and listening to the assistance provided. Enjoy your new hobby.