12GA Rifle From Hell

[HUBEL458]

We've sold 3400 sabots in 5-6 weeks, 6600 left here.
They can make more. Hooray it's picking up a little.
Get them while they are hot, so to speak.

These are 12ga sabots taking 58cal slugs.
These slugs are real devastating. Use the ones with
diameters of .574" to .577". Nothing bigger diameter is needed.
You can cast your own OR--

58cal slugs for these can be bought at Dixie Gunworks.
Item Numbers-- BA 1103 -- BU 0901 --about 50cents each.

There are 3 guys selling the right diameter ones on Gunbroker.
Their names on there are --
Blue Falcon --who has 3 or 4 that will fit.
Maplewoodbullets-- who has 2 weights in old style Lyman in one listing.
peoprepofkal-- has old style lyman in 490g
All of these are 40-50cents each. Ed

[HUBEL458]

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.





And more important item that causes a lack of accuracy is if the
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.



Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and a 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.



Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

[HUBEL458]

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.



Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.



Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.



Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.



Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.



Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

[Boomer58cal]

Wow... I'm glad I didn't see this thread before now. Good work! I use that same bullet in my. 58 and that 12ga from hell even makes my. 62 cal PB guns 900gn bullet seem... average. I only get 1200 fps out off the 900gn-er. 2700 fps is just... wow.


I'll take two


Boomer

[HUBEL458]

Well it it don't take a lot to get started with 12ga blaster.
Get NEF 12ga Ultra rifled barrel gun. Has heavy bull barrel,
and 3" chamber. Easy to deepen chamber....load up our
sabots w/440gr slug with 55gr of Steel in 3" case
or Use 4759 with 3.5" case.Abd there are heavier 58cal slugs.
Any 3.5" 12ga reamer deepens chamber. They really shine with
3.5" plastic and RMC can make 3.5" brass for stronger loads yet.Ed

[HUBEL458]

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.



A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.



Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter.




A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed



Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

[HUBEL458]

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide petals were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Her eis pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcating.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.


..
Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.



We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, sually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

[HUBEL458]

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..



In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,



You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.




Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but made it much smaller using much more
of the slower 4759.



There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
our 585 cases imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.



Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit
inside thr hollwbase of the bullet....Ed

[HUBEL458]

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.




Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.



Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields
through the winter. Ed

[HUBEL458]

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED






Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

[HUBEL458]

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
with foam pressed into the base..



How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .



Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.



Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.



Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

[gunslinger2000]

I too understood any rifle bigger than .50 was illegal. Some years ago BATF told me the rifle we wanted to build for 14.5 Russian would have to be licensed as a dangerous device. gunslinger

[Ben Towe]

Originally Posted by gunslinger2000

I too understood any rifle bigger than .50 was illegal. Some years ago BATF told me the rifle we wanted to build for 14.5 Russian would have to be licensed as a dangerous device. gunslinger

It's a 12 gauge shotgun. They are using brass cases but it's still a 12 gauge.

[HUBEL458]

Two things-

In shotgun calibers....... as long as chamber can take
regular 2.5, 2.75m 3, 3.5", etc cases it don't matter how long
the chamber is or whether barrel is smooth, rifled, backbored,
whatever it still legal shotgun. IE; you can't take a 30mm
and neck it down to 12ga size and call it a legal 12ga under GCA rules.

For our 585 HE, though being over 50, we applied for and got a sporting
use exemption, under a part of same GCA act. Like others over
50 cal-- 585Nyati, 577NE, 600NE 577Snyder, 550MAg, 700HE,many of
which are grandfathered in before GCA enacted. The 14.5mm cartridge is
considered a non sporting case, so it is a DD you have to
give them 200 bucks and fill out papers.Ed

[omenarcher]

I came across this forum in my search for a sabot sold as a separate component and discards when fired. The BPI sabots I bought advertise being compatible with .50cal bullets but the bullets won't seat all the way in without flaring the petals. It just doesn't seem right since all the sabot slugs you buy loaded don't do that. I'm dead set on finding sabots for 12 and 20 ga slugs so that I can shoot lead cast bullets from shells I've loaded. Has anyone found a company selling a quality sabot for reloading?

[HUBEL458]

THE BPI 12ga sabots are for the .500" pistol bullets. Regular
50cal rifle bullets are .510-.512"..

Our 12ga discarding white sabot is for the .575-.577" 58cal Minie bullets.
WE had 10,000 made but only ones left is guy listed above who
has a few to sell. If we gat enough interest and money collected
we can get another batch made.

Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.



Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.



Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Keep it comin, Hub - love reading your stuff.

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

That's gonna leave a mark, Bob.

[HUBEL458]

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

[HUBEL458]

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.



I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

[Husqvarna]

have you ever tried a hollowpoint bullet with "fins" inside of the hole?

I have read about those in old gun magazines,

to get them spinning while shooting out of smoothbores

from the time around the paradox gun when they tried to combine shotgun and double rifles

IIRC it was this dude
http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/Sec...ID=1&Tag=Stend

edit found it
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7561