Is This muzzle loading??

swatman · August 6, 2002, 05:33 PM

I wen tout with my new Thmpson to the range yesterday. Here in Pa, for the longest time it was illigal to use maxi balls untill recently and the only thing you could use was a flintlock. Everything was to be matched as close as realistically possible to how the pioneers did it during ML season. That was the whole idea a sport ya know?
Well I get there and there are these guys there with IN-Lines ( I guess you call them)
Fully equipped with scopes, shooting brass hollowpointed saboted slugs they claimed there were going to use for hunting, etc. These inlines aren't like flintlock at all, and combined with the scopes and the ammo, I figure they may as well legally be able to take a 30-30 rifle out into the woods with them for ML season.
Where is the sport in all that??
ALOT OF THESE NEW "MUZZLE LOADERS ARE VERY MUCH LIKE REGULAR RIFLES.. Seems to take away the entire concept if you ask me.....

Ok, end of rant..sorry

jjmorgan64 · August 6, 2002, 07:31 PM

Yup, you're right

Guyon · August 6, 2002, 08:40 PM

Well, you are right about the modern equipment being decidedly non-traditional.

But....

I see both sides. While I can appreciate a traditionalist mindset, I also appreciate the increased accuracy of a scoped inline with modern muzzleloading bullets.

From a hunter's standpoint, I'm looking for the most accurate shot for killing a deer. And frankly, as long as my muzzleloader is legal in the hunting woods, I don't care about tradition. I want my kills to be as sure and as humane as possible. I'll take a newfangled Powerbelt bullet over a round ball any day. And if they did decide to let .30-30s out of the closet during muzzleloading season, I'd be out there with my Marlin. As an ethical hunter, my obligation is to the deer--not to the past.

But then I bought a muzzleloader only for hunting about a week out of the year. I'm not in it for traditionalist sport. If I were, I'd be right there ranting with you.

I suspect there are quite a few traditionalists on this board, and as a newbie here, I mean no offense. But I don't think that folks need to look down their noses at other folks just because we're not shooting a flintlock. I recently bought my first muzzleloader, and I bought it with hunting, and hunting alone, in mind. I hope there's still room for me among the blackpowder folks...

swatman · August 6, 2002, 08:49 PM

I definately do see your point from a humane aspect..However, I think for the most Part it could be taken care of quite well simply from putting more range time in and practicing more.
I think the idea of using some of this newer stuff really creates too much of an advantage. Depending on where you live, it's getting to the point where they make so many special seasons, and making it get easier and easier to shoot the deer that in some areas it may be very destructive to the deer population in the smaller areas.

JMO

Guyon · August 6, 2002, 08:56 PM

Points well taken. I concede that one can still hunt effectively with an "old school" smokepole--given that you know your gun and load and that you get close enough to the deer. There's something to be said for a hunter who can humanely take a deer with older technology.

But I would worry about hunters who don't put in the time and wind up wounding a lot of animals.

As for the populations, I don't see that as a problem down around where I live. Heck, down in GA (neighboring state) this year, the limit is 10 antlerless deer and 2 antlered deer. That sounds to me like the Wildlife Division is trying to control the population.

swatman · August 6, 2002, 09:16 PM

10 antlerless!!! Wow, I think I need to move

Jimmy Mac · August 6, 2002, 09:29 PM

Inlines are for folks that do not wish to learn the basics of shooting and hunting. They tend to rely on technology to do it for them.

Jimmy Mac · August 6, 2002, 09:38 PM

Posted by guyon

"There is something to be said for a hunter that can humanely take a deer with older technology"

Anyone that shoot a rifle can do this.

There is no need for an inline. They are only nessary because those that do not know any better think they are nessary.

My flintlock or any of my caplocks will put a ball into a deers heart or neck at 100 yards or less with 100% accuracy and reliability.

All that is needed is average shooting ability and some basic knowlage of guns.

Guyon · August 6, 2002, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Inlines are for folks that do not wish to learn the basics of shooting and hunting.

Jimmy Mac: That's some of the most elitist crap I've read in quite a while. Tell it to the thousands of hunters who hunt with modern, scoped centerfires. More than a few of them will argue that the basics of shooting and hunting are still required during gun season.

To read your post, one would think that the ONLY way to shoot (or hunt) is with the oldest technology available. You imply that owning an inline is akin to napping on the LazyBoy of shooting.

Rubbish, I say. Your post reminds me of the elitism I encounter at the clays range when I show up with a synthetic Remington 1100. To hear some of those guys, you can't break a clay unless you're shooting a $5000 Perazzi. Apparently, I shouldn't muzzleload unless I have a vintage flintlock. In both cases, it's the same. I'm not in the right "clique," so I shouldn't get to play.

If you have a problem with the advances in technology, I suggest you head out to the deer woods this fall, smear mud all over your body, and kill your deer with a pointy stick. Or just strangle it with your bare hands.

Where is this antagonism against inlines (centerfires too?) coming from? Are traditionalists simply angry that more hunters are entering the woods during muzzleloading season? Is it about other folks encroaching on a span of the hunting season traditionalists used to have all to themselves?

swatman · August 6, 2002, 10:26 PM

Guyon, calm down, take a breath..
I think what he was trying to say was that an inline is not a neccessity. Alot of people used to look down on the idea of hunting with a flintlock due to the fact it takes more practice ( and patience) to learn how to shoot them accurately. With the advent of inlines, it seem that more people seem to think that somehow, this new product will make up for lack of that practice and patience.
I don't think he meant anything against you.

Guyon · August 6, 2002, 10:53 PM

I totally concede that an inline is not a necessity. It does, however, offer some advantages that I like. And if it's legal, I'll use it. Maybe that makes me uncool in the eyes of the "in" crowd of muzzleloaders. In the parlance of Valley speak, "Whatever..."

I can't say what Jimmy Mac meant. I can only read what he wrote and infer a tone from his posts. With quotes like these,

"Inlines are for folks that do not wish to learn the basics of shooting and hunting."

"There is no need for an inline. They are only nessary because those that do not know any better think they are nessary."

I can only infer that I'm:
A) unfit to practice the basics of good shooting and hunting with my inline
B) ignorant

In another post, Jimmy Mac writes, "It is harder and takes more time to clean an inline than a real rifle." All of a sudden, it seems I'm not shooting a real rifle. Call me crazy, but such a statement reeks of elitism. It just seems I'm not welcome at the party with my modern muzzleloader. So be it. This snubbing of one's nose at another shooter simply because of his/her gun of choice just rubs me the wrong way.

I've spent hours at the range working on offhand shooting, trigger pull, breathing, visualization, etc. I'm just curious as to how an inline will suddenly change all that.

Yeah, maybe I'm over-reacting. I know muzzleloading is different from centerfire shooting. I know I'll have to work harder on developing a load that fits my gun, and I know I won't have the same range as during gun season.

But as for making the shot, if you have a reliable system for delivery, aren't the basics just the same? Target acquisition, breathing, trigger pull, follow through are all the same as on centerfire rifles. Am I wrong here? Why would anyone think differently?

Jimmy Mac · August 7, 2002, 02:03 PM

Muzzloading season is for hunting the old way with old type rifles.

That was the intention of the season to start with.

Folks that can not tolerate the old style guns or could not learn to shoot them sayed home.

The inline allows folks to cheat by bending the rules just so they can infringe on OUR season.

You knew what it was about all of you did before you bought the inlines. You knew you were bending the rules so if someday they become ilegal to use in muzzleloading season you can't cry and moan about it. You will be stuck with a useless rifle that you never liked to begin with.

Inlines are MODERN guns. Use them in the modern gun season if you are so fond of them.

ChrisR246 · August 7, 2002, 02:08 PM

Swatman - as I understand the Game regualtion in PA, the in-lines are legal for rifle season, but ML season is still only for flintlocks and only open sights.

See this page from the PA Game Commission Website
[URL=http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/PGC/digest/02_03/PDF/02_03_50_53.pdf]

Guyon · August 7, 2002, 02:35 PM

Just as I thought. Sour grapes. Given the amount of legislative clout the gun lobby has, I sort of doubt that inlines are suddenly going to become illegal where they are legal now. Jimmy, I guess you should get used to the fact that muzzleloading season is OUR season. That includes all muzzleloaders, flintlock and inline alike.

Jimmy Mac · August 7, 2002, 02:50 PM

If they started a deer season only for tall black women for two days in October you would see loads of short white men buying dresses, high heels, bras and suntan lotion in WalMart.

This is called cheating.

It is no different than using a modern gun in muzzleloading season.

It is no different than using your 30-06 in a shotgun only hunt.

It is no different than using your shotgun in bow season.

Jimmy Mac · August 7, 2002, 04:16 PM

The General Assembly of our state last year almost baned the use of inline guns in the muzzleloading deer season.

I got some of the details from a man that was there.

99% of them agreed that the modern inline rifle had no place in the muzzleloading season.

The fact that the state would lose money because of less hunting license sells became more of an issue than right and wrong.

Maybe next year.

Guyon · August 7, 2002, 05:51 PM

[sarcasm] If 99% agreed, I'm stumped as to why new laws weren't passed. That's exactly what we need by the way--more restrictions on hunters and shooters. [/sarcasm]

I did a bit of reading using the search function. I'm happy to report that in the threads about this debate, most folks had a laissez faire attitude. That is, given the amount of restrictions already in place on hunters as well as the decline in hunting and its increased vilification in the public eye, the majority of TFL'ers in three separate threads were for anything that brings new hunters into the sport. I feel sorry for those people whose protective greed for a portion of the hunting season keeps them from seeing the big picture.

I recall a good piece I recently saw in the NRA Hunter magazine. To summarize: A "traditionalist" calls in an order for shooting supplies, and with each item, he demands only traditionally prepared items made out of "authentic" materials. Finally, when he's satisfied, he tries to pay with a credit card to no avail. That's because the supplier insists on recieving payment in gold or silver. Moreover, the order will be shipped by pack mule and will arrive 4 to 6 months after payment.

Moral: You can get carried away with this traditionalist mindset to the detriment of hunting and the RKBA. I wonder how many traditionalists ride their horses out to their hunting sites.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Jimmy Mac · August 7, 2002, 08:28 PM

The muzzleloader season is for buckskinners and muzzloading enthuseists to have a hunting season all their own.

This is not my "opinion" or just my "feelings" on the subject it is the very reason that the muzzleloading season was started.

This is the reason that the Dept of Fish and Wildlife set aside this season. The words are theirs not mine.

I just happen to very much agree with them.

It just so happens that some people used to ride their horses to the hunt but now they cant because of all the nuts in the woods from NYC with inlines watching them through their scopes. Makes their horses a little jumpy so most just walk in now.

priv8ter · August 7, 2002, 09:59 PM

Different States, Different Laws. I know that here in Washington, while you can't use scopes or the shotgun primers, we do have in-lines. last year, my first year doing muzzle loading, I carried a Euopean Double barrel that weighed about 12 pounds. While I felt that some of the guys using synthetic stocked in-line weren't in the spirit of things, out of the 50+ hunters I encountered, none of them were wearing coon-skin caps.

To me, your in-lines aren't the problem, it's the scopes. I saw an add for one of the in-lines advertising a 200 yard shot. WOW. Over iron sights, I'm scared to shoot much more than 80 yards at an Elk. Something that can shoot 200 yards probably belongs in modern season. It's a safety issue for us...no orange required during muzzle loader season. In Washington, it was never set up for the 'Traditionalists'.

Jimmy Mac: We used to bring horses out in the woods during Modern firearms season, and I never once saw them get skittish.

Guyon · August 7, 2002, 10:30 PM

http://www.huntingdigest.com/special...ls1.asp?ID=228

I'm with this fellow. "If it loads from the front, it's a muzzleloader."

Snobbery is snobbery, no matter where it comes from. And as always, it's both silly and pitiful.

Mind you, I have nothing but respect for traditionalists who have developed competency with their chosen guns. But when you start holding hunters up to rather subjective criteria (How long and how often have you shot a muzzleloader? Is it a sidelock? Do you wear buckskin? etc.), then where do you draw the line? What makes one hunter "worthy" of muzzleloader season and another hunter "unworthy"? What about the hunter who buys an inline but later gets into sidelocks as a result? Should that hunter be ostracized because of his earlier choices? Can you measure enthusiasm? Should you?

I've tried to understand the traditionalist mindset, but it reeks of an elitist attitude. ("If you're not one of us, you don't count.") And one of the biggest detriments to hunters and the RKBA community is infighting. As I said before, anything that brings in new shooters and new hunters is okay in my book.

Sorry, but as long as I'm using a gun that loads from the front, as long as I have to work up my desired load, and as long as I'm taking responsible shots in the field, I feel fully entitled to use my legal inline during muzzleloader season. If others don't like it, they'll just have to lump it.

**4V50 Gary** · August 8, 2002, 10:01 AM

OK guys. Muzzle loading is muzzle loading regardless whether it's flintlock, percussion, mule's ear, underhammer, rifled or smoothbore. Per se unless the State Legislature says so or the legislative intent is clear from the reading of the legislative minutes, it's not cheating. What if we were caught in the woods with a Ferguson? That's cheating, isn't it? Let's say we have video tape from that day showing that the Ferguson is loaded from the muzzle. Per se even with this "evidence" being accepted as authentic by a court, it's still cheating.

I don't own an inline and most my guns are either flint or percussion and the majority of the latter are Civil War repros. I personally believe the in-line lacks the artistic ingredients that makes the Golden Era and pre-Revolutionary War rifle so appealing. However, has anyone here ever considered that if given the opportunity, even Daniel Boone would have carried an inline over Ticklicker. How about 'ole Dan speaking regularly with Becky on a cellular phone & using NVGs/thermal imagers during a long hunt?

Jimmy Mac · August 8, 2002, 02:06 PM

A Ferguson is more like it even though it is a breech loader. At least it is pre 1840.

The Civil War rifle muskets are not pre 1840 but they are the real thing even if they are a reproduction gun. They should fit in during the season.

What is needed is two muzzleloading seasons. A moden muzzleloader season where inlines are welcome and a seperate season for the real thing.

**4V50 Gary** · August 8, 2002, 02:35 PM

I agree on two seasons. That will give me a reason to buy an in-line and double the hunting.

swatman · August 8, 2002, 04:53 PM

I am not sure that in Daniel Boon's time they were hunting so much for sport, but to eat..
My origional point was that to me, it si indeed a sport, so it should be somewhat challenging. I think alot of these newer guns take alot of the challenge away. I did not intend to condemn anyone who uses an inline or whatever. But I was trying to get an idea of how other people thought about it. While I don't condemn inline hunters, I do have to scratch my head and wonder where the sport of muzzle loading is going.

BluRidgDav · August 9, 2002, 10:55 AM

A better answer would be to have only ONE season. Simply a long, general, deer season, open to all types of sporting weapons. Instantly, you would see a hugh sale on in-line muzzleloaders! Because their owners were never interested in the challenges of muzzleloading hunting in the first place, and have all gone back to their centerfire rifles.

And I'll still be huntin' with my old musket.

August 6, 2002, 05:33 PM	#1
swatman Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Location: Pa. USA Posts: 768	Is This muzzle loading?? I wen tout with my new Thmpson to the range yesterday. Here in Pa, for the longest time it was illigal to use maxi balls untill recently and the only thing you could use was a flintlock. Everything was to be matched as close as realistically possible to how the pioneers did it during ML season. That was the whole idea a sport ya know? Well I get there and there are these guys there with IN-Lines ( I guess you call them) Fully equipped with scopes, shooting brass hollowpointed saboted slugs they claimed there were going to use for hunting, etc. These inlines aren't like flintlock at all, and combined with the scopes and the ammo, I figure they may as well legally be able to take a 30-30 rifle out into the woods with them for ML season. Where is the sport in all that?? ALOT OF THESE NEW "MUZZLE LOADERS ARE VERY MUCH LIKE REGULAR RIFLES.. Seems to take away the entire concept if you ask me..... Ok, end of rant..sorry __________________ "what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?" www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

August 6, 2002, 07:31 PM	#2
jjmorgan64 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2001 Posts: 519	Yup, you're right __________________ The Forty-Four spoke and it sent lead and smoke And seventeen inches of flame. -Marty Robbins JM

August 6, 2002, 08:40 PM	#3
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Well, you are right about the modern equipment being decidedly non-traditional. But.... I see both sides. While I can appreciate a traditionalist mindset, I also appreciate the increased accuracy of a scoped inline with modern muzzleloading bullets. From a hunter's standpoint, I'm looking for the most accurate shot for killing a deer. And frankly, as long as my muzzleloader is legal in the hunting woods, I don't care about tradition. I want my kills to be as sure and as humane as possible. I'll take a newfangled Powerbelt bullet over a round ball any day. And if they did decide to let .30-30s out of the closet during muzzleloading season, I'd be out there with my Marlin. As an ethical hunter, my obligation is to the deer--not to the past. But then I bought a muzzleloader only for hunting about a week out of the year. I'm not in it for traditionalist sport. If I were, I'd be right there ranting with you. I suspect there are quite a few traditionalists on this board, and as a newbie here, I mean no offense. But I don't think that folks need to look down their noses at other folks just because we're not shooting a flintlock. I recently bought my first muzzleloader, and I bought it with hunting, and hunting alone, in mind. I hope there's still room for me among the blackpowder folks... __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 6, 2002, 08:49 PM	#4
swatman Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Location: Pa. USA Posts: 768	I definately do see your point from a humane aspect..However, I think for the most Part it could be taken care of quite well simply from putting more range time in and practicing more. I think the idea of using some of this newer stuff really creates too much of an advantage. Depending on where you live, it's getting to the point where they make so many special seasons, and making it get easier and easier to shoot the deer that in some areas it may be very destructive to the deer population in the smaller areas. JMO __________________ "what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?" www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

August 6, 2002, 08:56 PM	#5
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Points well taken. I concede that one can still hunt effectively with an "old school" smokepole--given that you know your gun and load and that you get close enough to the deer. There's something to be said for a hunter who can humanely take a deer with older technology. But I would worry about hunters who don't put in the time and wind up wounding a lot of animals. As for the populations, I don't see that as a problem down around where I live. Heck, down in GA (neighboring state) this year, the limit is 10 antlerless deer and 2 antlered deer. That sounds to me like the Wildlife Division is trying to control the population. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 6, 2002, 09:16 PM	#6
swatman Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Location: Pa. USA Posts: 768	10 antlerless!!! Wow, I think I need to move __________________ "what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?" www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

August 6, 2002, 09:29 PM	#7
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	Inlines are for folks that do not wish to learn the basics of shooting and hunting. They tend to rely on technology to do it for them.

August 6, 2002, 09:38 PM	#8
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	Posted by guyon "There is something to be said for a hunter that can humanely take a deer with older technology" Anyone that shoot a rifle can do this. There is no need for an inline. They are only nessary because those that do not know any better think they are nessary. My flintlock or any of my caplocks will put a ball into a deers heart or neck at 100 yards or less with 100% accuracy and reliability. All that is needed is average shooting ability and some basic knowlage of guns.

August 6, 2002, 10:26 PM	#10
swatman Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Location: Pa. USA Posts: 768	Guyon, calm down, take a breath.. I think what he was trying to say was that an inline is not a neccessity. Alot of people used to look down on the idea of hunting with a flintlock due to the fact it takes more practice ( and patience) to learn how to shoot them accurately. With the advent of inlines, it seem that more people seem to think that somehow, this new product will make up for lack of that practice and patience. I don't think he meant anything against you. __________________ "what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?" www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

August 6, 2002, 10:53 PM	#11
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	I totally concede that an inline is not a necessity. It does, however, offer some advantages that I like. And if it's legal, I'll use it. Maybe that makes me uncool in the eyes of the "in" crowd of muzzleloaders. In the parlance of Valley speak, "Whatever..." I can't say what Jimmy Mac meant. I can only read what he wrote and infer a tone from his posts. With quotes like these, "Inlines are for folks that do not wish to learn the basics of shooting and hunting." "There is no need for an inline. They are only nessary because those that do not know any better think they are nessary." I can only infer that I'm: A) unfit to practice the basics of good shooting and hunting with my inline B) ignorant In another post, Jimmy Mac writes, "It is harder and takes more time to clean an inline than a real rifle." All of a sudden, it seems I'm not shooting a real rifle. Call me crazy, but such a statement reeks of elitism. It just seems I'm not welcome at the party with my modern muzzleloader. So be it. This snubbing of one's nose at another shooter simply because of his/her gun of choice just rubs me the wrong way. I've spent hours at the range working on offhand shooting, trigger pull, breathing, visualization, etc. I'm just curious as to how an inline will suddenly change all that. Yeah, maybe I'm over-reacting. I know muzzleloading is different from centerfire shooting. I know I'll have to work harder on developing a load that fits my gun, and I know I won't have the same range as during gun season. But as for making the shot, if you have a reliable system for delivery, aren't the basics just the same? Target acquisition, breathing, trigger pull, follow through are all the same as on centerfire rifles. Am I wrong here? Why would anyone think differently? __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 7, 2002, 02:03 PM	#12
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	Muzzloading season is for hunting the old way with old type rifles. That was the intention of the season to start with. Folks that can not tolerate the old style guns or could not learn to shoot them sayed home. The inline allows folks to cheat by bending the rules just so they can infringe on OUR season. You knew what it was about all of you did before you bought the inlines. You knew you were bending the rules so if someday they become ilegal to use in muzzleloading season you can't cry and moan about it. You will be stuck with a useless rifle that you never liked to begin with. Inlines are MODERN guns. Use them in the modern gun season if you are so fond of them.

August 7, 2002, 02:08 PM	#13
ChrisR246 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2000 Location: Schnecksville, PA Posts: 188	Swatman - as I understand the Game regualtion in PA, the in-lines are legal for rifle season, but ML season is still only for flintlocks and only open sights. See this page from the PA Game Commission Website [URL=http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/PGC/digest/02_03/PDF/02_03_50_53.pdf] __________________ John 6:53-54

August 7, 2002, 02:35 PM	#14
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Just as I thought. Sour grapes. Given the amount of legislative clout the gun lobby has, I sort of doubt that inlines are suddenly going to become illegal where they are legal now. Jimmy, I guess you should get used to the fact that muzzleloading season is OUR season. That includes all muzzleloaders, flintlock and inline alike. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 7, 2002, 02:50 PM	#15
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	If they started a deer season only for tall black women for two days in October you would see loads of short white men buying dresses, high heels, bras and suntan lotion in WalMart. This is called cheating. It is no different than using a modern gun in muzzleloading season. It is no different than using your 30-06 in a shotgun only hunt. It is no different than using your shotgun in bow season.

August 7, 2002, 04:16 PM	#16
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	The General Assembly of our state last year almost baned the use of inline guns in the muzzleloading deer season. I got some of the details from a man that was there. 99% of them agreed that the modern inline rifle had no place in the muzzleloading season. The fact that the state would lose money because of less hunting license sells became more of an issue than right and wrong. Maybe next year.

August 7, 2002, 05:51 PM	#17
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	[sarcasm] If 99% agreed, I'm stumped as to why new laws weren't passed. That's exactly what we need by the way--more restrictions on hunters and shooters. [/sarcasm] I did a bit of reading using the search function. I'm happy to report that in the threads about this debate, most folks had a laissez faire attitude. That is, given the amount of restrictions already in place on hunters as well as the decline in hunting and its increased vilification in the public eye, the majority of TFL'ers in three separate threads were for anything that brings new hunters into the sport. I feel sorry for those people whose protective greed for a portion of the hunting season keeps them from seeing the big picture. I recall a good piece I recently saw in the NRA Hunter magazine. To summarize: A "traditionalist" calls in an order for shooting supplies, and with each item, he demands only traditionally prepared items made out of "authentic" materials. Finally, when he's satisfied, he tries to pay with a credit card to no avail. That's because the supplier insists on recieving payment in gold or silver. Moreover, the order will be shipped by pack mule and will arrive 4 to 6 months after payment. Moral: You can get carried away with this traditionalist mindset to the detriment of hunting and the RKBA. I wonder how many traditionalists ride their horses out to their hunting sites. Don't miss the forest for the trees. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 7, 2002, 08:28 PM	#18
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	The muzzleloader season is for buckskinners and muzzloading enthuseists to have a hunting season all their own. This is not my "opinion" or just my "feelings" on the subject it is the very reason that the muzzleloading season was started. This is the reason that the Dept of Fish and Wildlife set aside this season. The words are theirs not mine. I just happen to very much agree with them. It just so happens that some people used to ride their horses to the hunt but now they cant because of all the nuts in the woods from NYC with inlines watching them through their scopes. Makes their horses a little jumpy so most just walk in now.

August 7, 2002, 09:59 PM	#19
priv8ter Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2002 Location: Silverdale, Wa Posts: 356	Whoa-Whoa Different States, Different Laws. I know that here in Washington, while you can't use scopes or the shotgun primers, we do have in-lines. last year, my first year doing muzzle loading, I carried a Euopean Double barrel that weighed about 12 pounds. While I felt that some of the guys using synthetic stocked in-line weren't in the spirit of things, out of the 50+ hunters I encountered, none of them were wearing coon-skin caps. To me, your in-lines aren't the problem, it's the scopes. I saw an add for one of the in-lines advertising a 200 yard shot. WOW. Over iron sights, I'm scared to shoot much more than 80 yards at an Elk. Something that can shoot 200 yards probably belongs in modern season. It's a safety issue for us...no orange required during muzzle loader season. In Washington, it was never set up for the 'Traditionalists'. Jimmy Mac: We used to bring horses out in the woods during Modern firearms season, and I never once saw them get skittish. __________________ "Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough to make your second shot perfect" "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -Lazerus Long

August 7, 2002, 10:30 PM	#20
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	http://www.huntingdigest.com/special...ls1.asp?ID=228 I'm with this fellow. "If it loads from the front, it's a muzzleloader." Snobbery is snobbery, no matter where it comes from. And as always, it's both silly and pitiful. Mind you, I have nothing but respect for traditionalists who have developed competency with their chosen guns. But when you start holding hunters up to rather subjective criteria (How long and how often have you shot a muzzleloader? Is it a sidelock? Do you wear buckskin? etc.), then where do you draw the line? What makes one hunter "worthy" of muzzleloader season and another hunter "unworthy"? What about the hunter who buys an inline but later gets into sidelocks as a result? Should that hunter be ostracized because of his earlier choices? Can you measure enthusiasm? Should you? I've tried to understand the traditionalist mindset, but it reeks of an elitist attitude. ("If you're not one of us, you don't count.") And one of the biggest detriments to hunters and the RKBA community is infighting. As I said before, anything that brings in new shooters and new hunters is okay in my book. Sorry, but as long as I'm using a gun that loads from the front, as long as I have to work up my desired load, and as long as I'm taking responsible shots in the field, I feel fully entitled to use my legal inline during muzzleloader season. If others don't like it, they'll just have to lump it. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 8, 2002, 10:01 AM	#21
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	Peace in our times... OK guys. Muzzle loading is muzzle loading regardless whether it's flintlock, percussion, mule's ear, underhammer, rifled or smoothbore. Per se unless the State Legislature says so or the legislative intent is clear from the reading of the legislative minutes, it's not cheating. What if we were caught in the woods with a Ferguson? That's cheating, isn't it? Let's say we have video tape from that day showing that the Ferguson is loaded from the muzzle. Per se even with this "evidence" being accepted as authentic by a court, it's still cheating. I don't own an inline and most my guns are either flint or percussion and the majority of the latter are Civil War repros. I personally believe the in-line lacks the artistic ingredients that makes the Golden Era and pre-Revolutionary War rifle so appealing. However, has anyone here ever considered that if given the opportunity, even Daniel Boone would have carried an inline over Ticklicker. How about 'ole Dan speaking regularly with Becky on a cellular phone & using NVGs/thermal imagers during a long hunt? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 8, 2002, 02:06 PM	#22
Jimmy Mac Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Posts: 688	A Ferguson is more like it even though it is a breech loader. At least it is pre 1840. The Civil War rifle muskets are not pre 1840 but they are the real thing even if they are a reproduction gun. They should fit in during the season. What is needed is two muzzleloading seasons. A moden muzzleloader season where inlines are welcome and a seperate season for the real thing.

August 8, 2002, 02:35 PM	#23
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	I agree on two seasons. That will give me a reason to buy an in-line and double the hunting. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 8, 2002, 04:53 PM	#24
swatman Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2000 Location: Pa. USA Posts: 768	I am not sure that in Daniel Boon's time they were hunting so much for sport, but to eat.. My origional point was that to me, it si indeed a sport, so it should be somewhat challenging. I think alot of these newer guns take alot of the challenge away. I did not intend to condemn anyone who uses an inline or whatever. But I was trying to get an idea of how other people thought about it. While I don't condemn inline hunters, I do have to scratch my head and wonder where the sport of muzzle loading is going. __________________ "what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?" www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

August 9, 2002, 10:55 AM	#25
BluRidgDav Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 314	A better answer would be to have only ONE season. Simply a long, general, deer season, open to all types of sporting weapons. Instantly, you would see a hugh sale on in-line muzzleloaders! Because their owners were never interested in the challenges of muzzleloading hunting in the first place, and have all gone back to their centerfire rifles. And I'll still be huntin' with my old musket. __________________ Watch your top-knot.