Winchester Fail Safe or Speer Grand Slam?

Bottom Gun · July 27, 2000, 03:19 PM

Went to the local gun shop today in search of a good stout 180 gr bullet to load in 30/06 for elk.
They didn't have the Nosler Partitions I was looking for, but they did have 180 gr Speer Grand Slam and 180 gr Winchester Fail Safe bullets. I'm tempted to try one of these.
Has anyone had any experience with either one?
How would you rate them?

Art Eatman · July 27, 2000, 04:24 PM

I have tried the Winchester, but admit I did not give them a fair test. I loaded some 150s in front of my usual 4064 load in my '06; got a horrible group. Three shots, six inches apart horizontally, 2" vertically. Duh?

I later read that they have a harder jacket than the usual bullet, and pressures could be higher than one's "pet load". This might account for my problem. As I say, no fair test.

I have read, here and in the gun mags, that all three bullets are known to work well...

Regardless, start low and work up; I probably should have--and will, next time around.

FWIW, Art

Glamdring · July 27, 2000, 05:20 PM

Well they are two very different bullets. The 180 Grandslam is a semi premium bullet in my mind I would prefer a Nosler partition for Elk and above.

I think the 180 failsafe in the 30-06 would be a bad choice for Elk. It is a VERY tough bullet, it expands but not to a large diameter. I think of the Failsafe as a flat tip solid. Now if you wanted to have a Grand Slam bullet in the chamber with Failsafes in the mag, like some do for Buffalo hunting with soft and solids, that might make sense.

If you want Noslers why don't you order them? If the gunshops in your area will not order tehm for you, you can get them from Midway in the mail.

Bottom Gun · July 27, 2000, 06:40 PM

Thanks for the info, Glamdring,
I had heard that the Fail Safes did not expand very well.
Guess I'll just mail order some Noslers. Incidently, I found an outfit whose prices are a little better than Midway's.
They have a web site: www.wholesalehunter.com.

Jay Baker · July 27, 2000, 07:39 PM

Bottom Gun, I handload and have been doing so for many years, for my various firearms. I have been lucky enough to kill quite a few deer and elk, antelope and Black bear.

I've always found that, for me, the Nosler Partition bullets, and the Hornady Interlocks, work best in my rifles, when shooting game.

Also, anectodal, a good friend of mine who is a fine hunter and very good shot, took a .300 Win. Mag., Fail Safe factory ammo, to B.C., for griz, three years ago, drilled one at about 90 yards, and he and his guide lost the bear. Searched and searched, but couldn't find it. My friend said he made a good killing shot, and I believe him. He was very disappointed in the Fail Safe bullet.

I've used Grand Slams for target practice, found them accurate in my rifles, but don't know how they'd perform on game animals.

I don't use Fail Safe. For hunting, Noslers and Hornady Interlocks for me. FWIW. J.B.

Glamdring · July 28, 2000, 04:55 PM

I have heard mixed reports on the failsafe, but I have noticed that all the positive reports involve light bullet for caliber with a high speed cartridge [2900+ fps muzzel vel].

Nosler's on the other hand

seem to be about perfect for most anything (within reason).

Art Eatman · July 28, 2000, 07:49 PM

I stopped in at a local gunstore, today; mentioned this thread. The owner showed me a .30 Failsafe (apparently 180 grains or less) which had been retrieved from an animal.

Little expansion; maybe to .40 or .45 caliber. It had been used on a big Scottish deer (Red Stag?) and the shooter had said he'd never use the Failsafe again...

It looked like it might be good if your target is specifically heavy bone, I guess.

FWIW, Art

gunmart · July 29, 2000, 10:15 AM

art..
at what point was the shooter disapointed in the results of his down critter?

a bullet should be designed to expell all of its energy into the beast.anything less and your just asking for a day of tracking.

Art Eatman · July 29, 2000, 10:26 AM

gunmart: From what was said--second-hand, mind you--the animal ran much farther than any of many previous stags taken by that particular hunter.

Reading between the lines, the hunter is quite well to do, and hunts all over the world. He has numerous trophy heads from Scotland. He is apparently used to quicker kills and more tissue destruction from his previously-used bullets.

And that's all I know about that particular deal.

Regards, Art

Glamdring · July 29, 2000, 01:46 PM

well I think one just needs to match the bullet construction to the job.

Here is a list offf the top of my head from soft softs [ie expanders] to solids. I don't mention Hawk bullets [which look very interesting] because I am not sure where to place them exactly. different categories perhaps.

If someone shot an elk with a 375/300FMJ in the lungs would they expect it to run a ways?
To me the fails safe is like a flat tip solid or just a bit less penetration.

Ballistic tips [Varmint], then V max, Ballistic tip [big game], HP varmint bullets

in the middle you have: Core Locks, Interlocks, Speer's normal bullets, and a bit tougher Speer's Grandslams

Then premium: Noslers, Swifts, Trophy Bonded

Super Premium: X bullets, Fail Safes

Solids: Hornady FMJ, Woodleigh FMJ, then IMHO a step up Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers, and then perhaps the best solid Speer AGS-Solids

Ron Ankeny · July 29, 2000, 02:38 PM

I have killed five mature bulls with 180 grain Grand Slams with my 30-06 and all five were between 150 - 300 yards. For what it is worth, all of them were hit in the lung cavity and the bullets passed clear through and the exit hole looked "normal" enough. I can't comment on the expansion because the bullets were not recovered.

The last elk I shot with the 180 grand slams was taken at about 150-200 yards in open terrain. I shot the critter 4 times in the lung cavity and all four of the bullets passed through. The two guys I was with and myself all agreed any one of the shots would have killed the animal, but being in the open, in a herd, and disoriented (the elk not me) allowed me to shoot it multiple times.

I quit using the Grand Slam when I went to the .30 magnums because I have other bullets that shoot more accurately. All in all, I would say the Grand Slam fails to open fully at 30-06 velocities and probably works better in a magnum, but I am not sure. Presently, I use the 200 grain Nosler Partition in a .30-.338 and it works very well indeed.

July 27, 2000, 03:19 PM	#1
Bottom Gun Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 1,092	Went to the local gun shop today in search of a good stout 180 gr bullet to load in 30/06 for elk. They didn't have the Nosler Partitions I was looking for, but they did have 180 gr Speer Grand Slam and 180 gr Winchester Fail Safe bullets. I'm tempted to try one of these. Has anyone had any experience with either one? How would you rate them?

July 27, 2000, 04:24 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I have tried the Winchester, but admit I did not give them a fair test. I loaded some 150s in front of my usual 4064 load in my '06; got a horrible group. Three shots, six inches apart horizontally, 2" vertically. Duh? I later read that they have a harder jacket than the usual bullet, and pressures could be higher than one's "pet load". This might account for my problem. As I say, no fair test. I have read, here and in the gun mags, that all three bullets are known to work well... Regardless, start low and work up; I probably should have--and will, next time around. FWIW, Art

July 27, 2000, 05:20 PM	#3
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	Well they are two very different bullets. The 180 Grandslam is a semi premium bullet in my mind I would prefer a Nosler partition for Elk and above. I think the 180 failsafe in the 30-06 would be a bad choice for Elk. It is a VERY tough bullet, it expands but not to a large diameter. I think of the Failsafe as a flat tip solid. Now if you wanted to have a Grand Slam bullet in the chamber with Failsafes in the mag, like some do for Buffalo hunting with soft and solids, that might make sense. If you want Noslers why don't you order them? If the gunshops in your area will not order tehm for you, you can get them from Midway in the mail.

July 27, 2000, 06:40 PM	#4
Bottom Gun Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 1,092	Thanks for the info, Glamdring, I had heard that the Fail Safes did not expand very well. Guess I'll just mail order some Noslers. Incidently, I found an outfit whose prices are a little better than Midway's. They have a web site: www.wholesalehunter.com.

July 27, 2000, 07:39 PM	#5
Jay Baker Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Location: S.W. Idaho Posts: 1,294	Bottom Gun, I handload and have been doing so for many years, for my various firearms. I have been lucky enough to kill quite a few deer and elk, antelope and Black bear. I've always found that, for me, the Nosler Partition bullets, and the Hornady Interlocks, work best in my rifles, when shooting game. Also, anectodal, a good friend of mine who is a fine hunter and very good shot, took a .300 Win. Mag., Fail Safe factory ammo, to B.C., for griz, three years ago, drilled one at about 90 yards, and he and his guide lost the bear. Searched and searched, but couldn't find it. My friend said he made a good killing shot, and I believe him. He was very disappointed in the Fail Safe bullet. I've used Grand Slams for target practice, found them accurate in my rifles, but don't know how they'd perform on game animals. I don't use Fail Safe. For hunting, Noslers and Hornady Interlocks for me. FWIW. J.B.

July 28, 2000, 04:55 PM	#6
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	I have heard mixed reports on the failsafe, but I have noticed that all the positive reports involve light bullet for caliber with a high speed cartridge [2900+ fps muzzel vel]. Nosler's on the other hand seem to be about perfect for most anything (within reason).

July 28, 2000, 07:49 PM	#7
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I stopped in at a local gunstore, today; mentioned this thread. The owner showed me a .30 Failsafe (apparently 180 grains or less) which had been retrieved from an animal. Little expansion; maybe to .40 or .45 caliber. It had been used on a big Scottish deer (Red Stag?) and the shooter had said he'd never use the Failsafe again... It looked like it might be good if your target is specifically heavy bone, I guess. FWIW, Art

July 29, 2000, 10:15 AM	#8
gunmart Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Posts: 551	art.. at what point was the shooter disapointed in the results of his down critter? a bullet should be designed to expell all of its energy into the beast.anything less and your just asking for a day of tracking.

July 29, 2000, 10:26 AM	#9
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	gunmart: From what was said--second-hand, mind you--the animal ran much farther than any of many previous stags taken by that particular hunter. Reading between the lines, the hunter is quite well to do, and hunts all over the world. He has numerous trophy heads from Scotland. He is apparently used to quicker kills and more tissue destruction from his previously-used bullets. And that's all I know about that particular deal. Regards, Art

July 29, 2000, 01:46 PM	#10
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	well I think one just needs to match the bullet construction to the job. Here is a list offf the top of my head from soft softs [ie expanders] to solids. I don't mention Hawk bullets [which look very interesting] because I am not sure where to place them exactly. different categories perhaps. If someone shot an elk with a 375/300FMJ in the lungs would they expect it to run a ways? To me the fails safe is like a flat tip solid or just a bit less penetration. Ballistic tips [Varmint], then V max, Ballistic tip [big game], HP varmint bullets in the middle you have: Core Locks, Interlocks, Speer's normal bullets, and a bit tougher Speer's Grandslams Then premium: Noslers, Swifts, Trophy Bonded Super Premium: X bullets, Fail Safes Solids: Hornady FMJ, Woodleigh FMJ, then IMHO a step up Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers, and then perhaps the best solid Speer AGS-Solids

July 29, 2000, 02:38 PM	#11
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	I have killed five mature bulls with 180 grain Grand Slams with my 30-06 and all five were between 150 - 300 yards. For what it is worth, all of them were hit in the lung cavity and the bullets passed clear through and the exit hole looked "normal" enough. I can't comment on the expansion because the bullets were not recovered. The last elk I shot with the 180 grand slams was taken at about 150-200 yards in open terrain. I shot the critter 4 times in the lung cavity and all four of the bullets passed through. The two guys I was with and myself all agreed any one of the shots would have killed the animal, but being in the open, in a herd, and disoriented (the elk not me) allowed me to shoot it multiple times. I quit using the Grand Slam when I went to the .30 magnums because I have other bullets that shoot more accurately. All in all, I would say the Grand Slam fails to open fully at 30-06 velocities and probably works better in a magnum, but I am not sure. Presently, I use the 200 grain Nosler Partition in a .30-.338 and it works very well indeed.