Body armor considerations: Poll, how many wear body armor?

[kymasabe]

I prefer to tape on about 14 inches of ballistic geletin over my body as most handgun rounds won't penetrate that deep, and I find it weighs less than most vests and keeps me cooler. Plus I can always pluck the round from the gel and send it over to CSI for identification to see who was shooting at me.

Really though...as a civilian, you'll probably never need a vest. And if you do, you either need to stop looking for trouble, or you need to move away from it.

[leadcounsel]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

Armor vs. bullet testing.

Handgun rounds and shotgun slugs and buckshot are stopped, but they leave one heck of a dent in the clay backstop. Some of these dents are the size of a baseball or softball!

Rifle rounds go right through and leave a very aweful hole.

I cannot imagine how terrible it would be to be shot, even with a vest.

[Bo Hunter]

OUCH! Look at those cavernous pockets! Thats gonna leave a MARK! I think I'd rather be SHOT - it will probably hurt less!

[wayneinFL]

Deciding to carry a gun is a bit of a lifestyle change. I can get used to 2# of steel on one side of my hip. I can get used to checking my pockets before I walk into an airport or courthouse.

Wearing a ballistic vest under my shirt in 90 degree weather is just too much of a lifestyle change for me.

"If you don't believe me about the knife, take your favorite stabber and stick it into a pile of corrugated cardboard. Even a sharp pointed, heavy blade will only penetrate a short way. By the time a blade penetrates 18 layers of kevlar, it is probably not going to go too deep into flesh."

At least one person has been killed with a stab through a ballistic vest. I read about a Russian who was killed while betting his ballistic vest was knife-proof. He lost the bet. I think I saw it in the Darwin awards.

[spacemanspiff]

i have natures-own body armor: a 4 inch layer of fat all around my vitals (except my head).

[AMT8951]

I always wear my vest at work, and never wear it off duty. I do have an older vest I keep next to the gun cabinet, just in case. However, if I thought I needed to wear a vest every time I left the house, I'd probably never go out.

[grampster]

My comments come from walking the earth for 62 years, several of which were spent in LE.

If one was to remove from the stats the people actually shot or assaulted while in neighborhoods that are dicey or engaging in behavior that puts one in harms way, (being a gangbanger for instance, or a drug seller, or a general run of the mill nitwit that beats his wife and annoys his neighbors squared) I would believe that one would be more likely be hit by a double stroke of lightning than having the need to wear body armor.

While being skilled in the use of handguns is a worthy thing, (I shoot very well with either hand) and carrying concealed is something that I do more often than not, and believe strongly in teaching firearm use and safety to kids, I am in no way paranoid enough to even consider buying tactical clothing as my primary wardrobe. There is being aware and prepared and then there is fringe behavior that causes muffled laughter. Buying and wearing body armor while engaged in and living an ordinary, day to day life is making me want to place my hand over my mouth and snort.

Sorry, no slight intended, just my life experience .02 cents.

[spacemanspiff]

by the way, should you get shot in the vest, i'm pretty sure you won't be up to returning fire, and when your attacker sees you arent bleeding out he/she might just put one in your head.

[Wildalaska]

+1 Grampster, +1 Spiff

WildletstakearealitycheckAlaska

[p99guy]

spaceman..thats not correct. while you will end up with a nasty bruise from a typical service caliber handgun.......it will not knock you down or keep you from returning fire.....in fact it hurts just enough to really piss a person off.
you need to do a bit more research(not TV) before making statements like that.......one off the demos Rich Davis used to do is shoot himself with a .44mag and then without skipping a beat....shoot several bowling pins off the table to show just what you are say is not correct.....I wear the stuff , I have been to classes on it, been saved by it, and and I am a member of the IACP/dupont kevlar survivers club.
people dont dent like clay.

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

making me want to place my hand over my mouth and snort.

Well Grampy, thats a new one for me ..... I may want to use it sometime if you don't have a copywrite on it!

[spacemanspiff]

in fact it hurts just enough to really piss a person off.

do you say that having been shot while wearing a vest? unless there are the trauma plates inserted, the wearer will very likely have some broken bones or even damaged organs. quality soft body armor flexes up to two inches when hit.

tell you what, you go out there and you shoot yourself with a 44mag, a 45, a 357mag/sig, and you come back and tell us what you could do immediately afterwards.

rich davis made a great product, no doubt about that, but i wonder about his mental condition when i see his demos.

besides this is all academic for me anyways. i just ordered a cloaking bodysuit so the bad guys wont be able to see me. i could have spent an extra $19.99 and got the cloaking balaclava as well, but i gotta eat this week.
so i guess i'll just weird people out when they only see my neck/head bobbing along.

[p99guy]

And once again...you have failed to F'in do any real research into the subject
and are clinging to some very incorrect conclusions.

[spacemanspiff]

i declare myself the winner of this argument since you opted to use dirty language.
i rule!

[payne]

Spiff, I could see it now the invisable man sprouts a head.

Anyway, for a little medical advice from a nurse. The vest will save a life, but could just prolong death. If you took a 12 slug or 00 buckshot to the chest. you could very likely suffer some serious internal injuries. The aortic arch is an area in the chest right above the heart that is poorly supported. A very hard blow to that area of the chest could cause a tear or rupture in that vessel. And that will lead to death fairly quickly. If shot over the spine you could break the vertabre and potentially damage the spinal cord. Of course there is an excelent chance you'll break ribs receiving such a strong blow in the side. This is from shotgun blasts. The handgun rounds will bruise and maybe break a rib or two. All will cause tissue damage. The extent will vary on the weight and velocity of the rounds. The 12ga slug could rupture the spleen or lacerate the liver. Kidney rupture is also possiable if hit in the lumbar area. Of course all these are better than haveing a 124, 165, 180, 200, 230gr bullet or shotgun slug go ripping through you. Well have fun with the rest of the discussion.

Oh, I don't wear a vest.

[leadcounsel]

The clay examples are impressive, but they are against a solid backstop.

A human wearing a vest and shot in the torso will likely suffer broken ribs or bruised organs, but will likely be able to return fire.

I watched a video of a US soldier, a medic in fact, standing next to his HumVEE. On the video he took a 7.62 to the chest. His armor (heavier than mine, but also a significantly heavier bullet) absorbed it. It knocked him back a step, and he took cover behind the Humvee and returned fire.

He had bruising to his chest (maybe some cracked ribs, I don't remember) but that vest absolutely saved his life and he was able to function just fine. It's rather cool video.

Downscaling both the armor and caliber, if one were shot with a handgun load covered by civilian armor, one could still function.

Ask any cop and he'll agree.

[leadcounsel]

There are generally about 15,000 firearm related homicides annually in the US. I don't know the figure, but I am willing to bet there are significantly more gunshot wounds to the torso that were near fatal and left the victims hospitalized with permanent or long term injuries.

I have ZERO idea how many are gang related, pistol related, and rifle related. However, my GUESS is that most of these people that were shot did not expect it, were probably shot with a small caliber pistol, and were probably shot in the torso -- which by the way are all preventable for $500 and some daily discomfort. I bet every one of them would pony up the $500 for a vest if they could go back.

Since most of us carry, we tend to think that the world is violent and filled with BGs, some with guns.

I think it particularly naive, no offense grandpa, to think that you have to live in a poor neighborhood or go looking for crime. The fact is that crime sometimes finds you, no matter where you are.

Wearing, in my opinion, only makes sense.

[Wildalaska]

Since most of us carry, we tend to think that the world is violent and filled with BGs, some with guns.

sSince you are a lawyer you should realize how weak post hoc ergo propter hoc statements like that one are.

PS...I'm pretty happy in my world which is a nice place. I dont cruise the streets of south central LA at night, nor go to sleazy bars, nor hang around dope dealers, nor have extensive contact with the criiminal element...neither do you I reckon.

Therefore I dont need body armor.

Taking it to its rediculous extremes, maybe we need armoured vehicles.

WildwhatanimpressiontotheantisstufflikethisgivesAlaska

[leadcounsel]

Anything can be taken to the extreme, of course.

I don't see readily available and relatively cheap bullet resistent armor to protect most of my vitals, which is also light, flexible and easy to use and barely noticable, particularly in light of the fact that I carry a gun and expect that I may need to one day use it -- which by itself REQUIRES the threat of deadly force on the part of another (read, sometimes a handgun), as excessive.

And I'm a bad lawyer because I type run-ons like the above too

[grampster]

leadcounsel,
I am not only not naive, I also have not purchased stock in a tinfoil manufacturer. I have a rather long lifetime of experience to draw upon. (Many years as LE in a major city)

In a country of 300 million people I have yet to witness, while in my normal civilian day to day life, a gun battle or violent assault. I have also never seen an auto accident occur directly in my presence. There are more auto accidents happening randomly just about anyplace you can drive an auto, and some where you should not, than there are violent acts with firearms. In addition, some firearm and weapon activity can pretty much be predicted to occur in certain places, while auto accidents generally cannot. Whether you want to admit it or not, much violence can be avoided by being prudent. To think otherwise is actually naive.


IE: It's really pretty safe and boring out there on the fruited plain.


Having said all that, I think spending time thinking about, purchasing and actually wearing body armor while being an ordinary citizen is grounds for taking a month long vacation in, say, Key West, where there are naked women (and men if you're so inclined) and a lot of drinking establishments as well as opportunity to fish, boat, or dive, to say nothing about the great food and weather.

Life is too short and sweet to be obsessing about your personal safety so much. You are also confirming the notion that the anti's have; that we're all nuts. I have been going to KW for about 10 years now where just about every critter that has been known to breathe, and some that are questionable, seem to congregate. I've not been robbed, shot nor been offered the opportunity to be sexually attacked (although I'm still hoping for this one) and have not seen the need to wear much else than my Keen sandals, shorts and a raggedy t-shirt with pictures of guns on it that says "Celebrate Diversity".

Regards,
grampster

PS: 106 posts in 5 days? Man, your motor is in overdrive and you really, really need to relax....or better yet, you need to come over and mow my lawn, wash n wax the car, paint the house and maybe re-roof it while your at it. Just kiddin, dude. We like to joke here a bit, too.

[Wildalaska]

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVO!

wildimputtinmyshortsandsandalsonAlaska

[USP45usp]

Aw heck, let him be.

We all have our plans and thoughts on what to do if this or that happens. He wants to wear body armour, that is his choice.

Me, I own it and the reason that I own it (besides it was free) is if the time comes when I need it, it's not going to be a good day (you know what I'm talking about).

I've got a trunk full of stuff where I can set up a tent city, surgical unit, and sustain about 4 people for a couple of weeks, up to and including hot food. Many will say that is to the extreme, but over all the years, that is my BOB. Even if I could only take the hikers rack, I could do the same for about 3 days and still do all the above.

He has just gone that extra step to use his tools on a regular basis. Most of us that have, have chosen not to do the same. As we shouldn't dismiss or ridicule his choices on his personal safety, he shouldn't do the same with ours.

The important thing is this, at least we all have a plan, something that thousands of people didn't and it didn't fair well for them .

Wayne

[leadcounsel]

No offense meant for the "naive" comment. I think we can agree it's an unpredictable and violent world. I should have rephrased that comment.

However:

Do you wear your seatbelt and would you even if it was legal to not wear it? Deadly auto accidents are rare when you factor the sheer number of autos, the volume of cars, and the HOURS you have spent in them. I've never personally witnessed a deadly car accident.

Do you have fire or theft insurance? Odds are you probably will never be the victim of a fire or theft from your home. I've never witnessed a home fire or witnessed a burglary.

Do you carry a gun? Odds are you'll never need to use it.

We do alot of precautionary things on a daily basis.

Do you have an emergency evacuation plan or a BOB? Needing such will be highly unlikely, but many have them.

The answer, for me, is yes to all of the above. Despite the odds, it has to happen to somebody. And I personally have been burgled and had two handguns stolen, so I know there are at least two illegal handguns in my city in the wrong hands.

I agree that average "people" may think I"m a nut for wearing a vest as a mild mannered civilian, and I don't advertise that I wear a vest or carrry a gun. However, I also really don't care what the average population thinks because they won't survive in situations that I will. And, the most important rule is, "He who lives the longest, wins."

[grampster]

Yabut can you still come over and do the stuff I need done around the house?

[Wildalaska]

However, I also really don't care what the average population thinks because they won't survive in situations that I will.

Yeah unless you get headshot...

Funny, the last two murders in Anchorage were head shots

WildkevlarfacemaskAlaska