Help with choosing a NM AR15, please.

shooterer · December 28, 2007, 11:38 AM

I would like to start shooting matches and would like some imput on where I would get the most bang for my bucks in factory National match rifles.

Armalite
Rock River
Bush Master
Others?

Also, should I be looking at A4 with detachable handle (all my current AR's are A2's)

Any info would help.

Thanks,
Shooterer

boltgun71 · December 30, 2007, 08:12 AM

As I understand it Rock River Arms is the top of the line for a factory NM AR. I have a Rock River NM A2 and it is fantastic. I paid $1,100 even for mine. With the Rock River you will have your choice between A2 or A4 configuration, .040 or .030 rear apetures, 1/4 MOA or 1/2MOA sights, depending on where you live Pre- or Post- ban configuration, and black or OD green furniture.

As for your question of looking for A2 or A4 configuration, I would check with all the manufacturers you are considering and ask if their carry handles on A4's are truely adjustable to 600yds for competition. I know Rock Rivers are good to 600yds and they advertise that. I guess some manufactures when making their carry handles, due to the machining of it have to take away from some of the sights adjustment room for them to properly fit and you end up with a sight that doesn't adjust fully to 600yds. I would assume that on a companies NM model they would ensure their NM A4's were adjustable to 600yds though. You wont have to worry about this issue with an A2. Get whatever makes you happy though. Hope this helps.

Mike_In_MD · December 30, 2007, 07:29 PM

+1 on the Rock River. I have the thier A4 DCM Match rifle. The trigger and the sub MOA accuracy is simply amazing.

TNT_Shooter · December 30, 2007, 07:40 PM

I was thinking about what AR to get and after reading these couple of "replies", I am sold on the Rock River. A friend of mine who traditionally uses Colt AR's said he is switching to Rock River as well.

I have perused their website and they seem to be very confident of their product.

TNT

Casimer · December 30, 2007, 09:44 PM

I think that the elevation available w/ the RRA NM A4 is fine - I know people who use them, and I don't think that they've had to modify anything. But you might want to do a quick search on nationalmatch.us just to confirm.

What tends to win over a lot of people to the RRAs, besides the quality and accuracy, is that they have a decent robust two-stage trigger.

Tim R · December 30, 2007, 10:32 PM

I know 2 guys who bought RRA NM AR's at the same time about 3 years ago. Today one's a Master and working on High Master. The other is an Expert knocking on Master.

I use a RRA NM lower myself and have the RRA 2 stage trigger tuned by John Holliger at White Oak Precision. For a couple of hundred more than a complete RRA NM you could get a RRA NM lower and add a White Oak Presision Upper which are freaking tack drivers. Or you would more than likely beat RRA's price by getting the RRA NM lower and use a White Oak Armament upper. WOP and WOA are both owned by John. WOA use's the same Wilson barrel RRA does.

For the apreture, I would get the .040. This would be alright for bright days but would be wide enough for dim days. The .030 is good only for bright days. If you get a WOP upper, you get both.

I like the 1/4" X 1/4" sight adjustments. I believe they are handy for the fine tuneing a 1/2" won't give you.

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/

Good luck

shooterer · January 2, 2008, 08:57 AM

Thanks everyone for your insight.

After hours and hours of research I have decided to go with the Rock River A2 with ¼ x ¼ sights .040 aperture and black furniture. I order one from Pete at Legal Transfer for $949.00 (shipped) RRA had a sale on. I should see the rifle in 4-6 weeks.

The wait will be a good thing giving me time to purchase the other supplies I need, and that brings me to my next question (and there will be plenty more).

Could you guys (and ladies) give me suggestions on the best ideas for:
* Factory Match ammo
* Jacket
* Sighting scope & stand
* Books, DVDs or websites on proper service rifle shooting. (the tips at CMP have been helpful)

Thanks again,
Shooterer

Tim R · January 2, 2008, 01:31 PM

Congrats on the rifle and at a fair price too. I'll attempt to answer your questions. It would seem the rifle is the cheap part compaired to what a guy can spend on gear. I would check for used items every place I could think of. If you know how to get in touch with other shooters, don't be afraid to ask if they know any one who has used gear.

I understand Black Hills makes match ammo from 52 to 80 gr. My AR's have seen very little if any store bought ammo.

The scope should be no more than 30 power. I know there are varible scopes out there but 30 is the most you will need. Any thing much higher isn't going to help yyou see unless there is proper lighting which seems rare. My Kowa has a 27 power eye piece. You do what as wide as front lens as you can get. 60mm should be the smallest for the front lens. Champions Choice has a good selction of cheaper scopes. Also you will want a 45 degree eye piece.

Scope stands have gotten out of hand. No body builds a good reasonably priced scope stand IMHO any more. I would get a 3 legged stand with a 1 inch rod as a first choice. They have to be tall enough to get the scope high enough to look through the scope while standing to shoot off hand.

Shooters stool. You don't need a war wagon with wheels. A good ole' stool will more than work. I like the big stool from Creedmore.

Mat. Make sure it's got rubber on the shooters end.

Coat. Creedmoore. They will build you a custom coat. I like the pads, you don't really need the fancy zippers on the back so you can sit. I know some who have these, mine dosen't. Mine works just as well as my friends.

Glove. Well the $18.00 one works as good as the $38.00 one.

www.creedmoorsports.com
www.champchoice.com
http://www.ray-vin.com
www.okweber.com

I'm sure there are more supply people out there, but these are the one I use the most.

Positions: Check http://www.highpowerforum.com/ They have a good thread on proper positions with pictures.

jc121 · January 2, 2008, 11:59 PM

Good choice on rifles It will serve you well. you were given a good choice on the black hills ammo.
The rest depends on how much you want to spend and what you want to do.
as far as books and tapes the cmp ones on their web site from the amu are pretty good. you can spend money on books and not get near out of them as those amu ones from the cmp.

as far as equipment you have gotten some good advice on scopes.
If you are just starting out I would watch what i spent untill I new i wanted to do it over the long run.
now as far as jackets and mats there is nothing wrong with used.If you know your size ebay or some hp forum sites would be a good place to start.
I would go with creedmore on the coat as they are the most common and have a very good rep. mats I would go with a roll up and there are a few good brands out there.

scopes? the kowa works well but will run you about what your rifle did for the big one. i guess the scope depends on what you plan on doing. for example I like the large kowa but i use it for coaching and it lets me see more down range as far as conditions go.
now at 200 yards if i can not see the holes with my 80mm you can not see them with a 60mm and vice versa. some folks like the 661 kowa for the price and weight advantage.

really think about reloading if you get into it more as it will save you big bucks over the long haul.

nothing wrong with buying what you can aford but remember if you are into it for the long haul the old saying holds true.
BUY ONCE CRY ONCE!!!

Ken O · January 3, 2008, 09:25 PM

You did fine. You will be happy with it and it can take you to high master. My experience mirrors Tim R., everything he said is what I have learned, except I like the zipper in the left hand sleave for the Creedmore coat. I have all the upgrades in my jacket, I like the vents and the sleeve zipper. I don't really care about the zippers in the back.

A RR lower with a WOP upper is the ultimate IMHO for the money.

My suggestion would be to pull the trigger and send it to John (White Oak) and have him do a trigger job on it ($25-$35 if I remember right).

Down the road you might want to get the sights pinned, which helps for the 600 yard line. White Oak is the one that does it.

MythBuster · January 29, 2008, 01:09 PM

Most everyone I shoot highpower with that uses a factory rifle uses the Rock River.

The few that use other factory rifles such as the DCM Bushmaster use the Rock River trigger in their rifle.

The Bushmaster two stage match trigger is 100% junk.

dgludwig · March 3, 2008, 03:59 PM

What do you guys recommend regarding magazines? Are the MagPul plastic jobs "legal" for CMP/National Match events or are you required to use metal mags? Can curved mags be used or must you use straight? Thanks.

Tim R · March 3, 2008, 06:23 PM

Most everyone uses a 20 round mag. There are a couple of rasons. 1. you will never put more than 8 rounds in it and 2. Sometimes the 30's drag the ground during prone and the rule book says no part of the rifle may touch the ground.

I use Colt mags but any USGI spec mag will work just fine.

30Cal · March 3, 2008, 06:24 PM

Find some ammo (Black Hills 77grs would be my choice if I was stuck with shooting factory). Get at least 2 20rd mags (or don't; borrow some). You don't need 30s and they'll probably interfere with the prone position.

Take rifle and ammo and mags, with a sweatshirt, and a sandwich to a match. Look at everyone elses gear and ask if they'll let you mess around with it.

I'd highly recommend against buying gear until you know what it is you want to buy. You won't know till you've got a couple matches under your belt.

Or, you could buy now (and replace it later when you find out it's not working for you).

Show up to the first match you can get to. Don't worry whether you have any, some, most or all of the gear. Tell the match director you're new and will need to borrow this or that. Having all the stuff isn't going to help your score anyhow.

firewrench044 · March 23, 2008, 07:41 AM

good choice on rifle!!

Go to a match or a sceduled practice

look at the other shooters equipment, and see what you like and what works for you

scopes -- the larger the front lens the better you can see on cloudy
days or lower light conditions, some are very happy with a fixed 25 to 30 power rear lens, I have a varrible (it is used for other applications ), Kowa is good, wish I could aford a Lieca ( clearer image )

glove or mit -- try some on, see what you like

coat -- I like Creedmore's hard back, with all the zippers and is very vented
( it gets very hot in Florida), again see what you want and like in other peoples coats ( A good coat is a large investment $$$ )

ammo -- most like Blackhills (save your brass, you will reload latter to
feed your rifle what it likes the best )

other stuff -- you can start with a piece of carpet and a Walmart camping stool and upgrade latter, take water, or you will dehydrate ( avoid cafeine, makes you shakey), ear muffs or plugs, standard or electronic?- I prefer electronic so I can hear the range comands ( my hearing is impaired ) and the plugs drive me crazy, sling - Turner is good I use one made by Leslie Tam, its thicker and very heavy duty ( I am hard on slings )

December 28, 2007, 11:38 AM	#1
shooterer Member Join Date: August 22, 2006 Location: WI. Posts: 64	Help with choosing a NM AR15, please. I would like to start shooting matches and would like some imput on where I would get the most bang for my bucks in factory National match rifles. Armalite Rock River Bush Master Others? Also, should I be looking at A4 with detachable handle (all my current AR's are A2's) Any info would help. Thanks, Shooterer __________________ Stand up for whats right....Even if you stand alone. Last edited by shooterer; December 28, 2007 at 01:28 PM.

December 30, 2007, 09:44 PM	#5
Casimer Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 1,918	I think that the elevation available w/ the RRA NM A4 is fine - I know people who use them, and I don't think that they've had to modify anything. But you might want to do a quick search on nationalmatch.us just to confirm. What tends to win over a lot of people to the RRAs, besides the quality and accuracy, is that they have a decent robust two-stage trigger. Last edited by Casimer; January 2, 2008 at 11:11 AM.

December 30, 2007, 10:32 PM	#6
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I know 2 guys who bought RRA NM AR's at the same time about 3 years ago. Today one's a Master and working on High Master. The other is an Expert knocking on Master. I use a RRA NM lower myself and have the RRA 2 stage trigger tuned by John Holliger at White Oak Precision. For a couple of hundred more than a complete RRA NM you could get a RRA NM lower and add a White Oak Presision Upper which are freaking tack drivers. Or you would more than likely beat RRA's price by getting the RRA NM lower and use a White Oak Armament upper. WOP and WOA are both owned by John. WOA use's the same Wilson barrel RRA does. For the apreture, I would get the .040. This would be alright for bright days but would be wide enough for dim days. The .030 is good only for bright days. If you get a WOP upper, you get both. I like the 1/4" X 1/4" sight adjustments. I believe they are handy for the fine tuneing a 1/2" won't give you. http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/ Good luck __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

January 2, 2008, 08:57 AM	#7
shooterer Member Join Date: August 22, 2006 Location: WI. Posts: 64	The next step. Thanks everyone for your insight. After hours and hours of research I have decided to go with the Rock River A2 with ¼ x ¼ sights .040 aperture and black furniture. I order one from Pete at Legal Transfer for $949.00 (shipped) RRA had a sale on. I should see the rifle in 4-6 weeks. The wait will be a good thing giving me time to purchase the other supplies I need, and that brings me to my next question (and there will be plenty more). Could you guys (and ladies) give me suggestions on the best ideas for: * Factory Match ammo * Jacket * Sighting scope & stand * Books, DVDs or websites on proper service rifle shooting. (the tips at CMP have been helpful) Thanks again, Shooterer __________________ Stand up for whats right....Even if you stand alone.

January 2, 2008, 01:31 PM	#8
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	Congrats on the rifle and at a fair price too. I'll attempt to answer your questions. It would seem the rifle is the cheap part compaired to what a guy can spend on gear. I would check for used items every place I could think of. If you know how to get in touch with other shooters, don't be afraid to ask if they know any one who has used gear. I understand Black Hills makes match ammo from 52 to 80 gr. My AR's have seen very little if any store bought ammo. The scope should be no more than 30 power. I know there are varible scopes out there but 30 is the most you will need. Any thing much higher isn't going to help yyou see unless there is proper lighting which seems rare. My Kowa has a 27 power eye piece. You do what as wide as front lens as you can get. 60mm should be the smallest for the front lens. Champions Choice has a good selction of cheaper scopes. Also you will want a 45 degree eye piece. Scope stands have gotten out of hand. No body builds a good reasonably priced scope stand IMHO any more. I would get a 3 legged stand with a 1 inch rod as a first choice. They have to be tall enough to get the scope high enough to look through the scope while standing to shoot off hand. Shooters stool. You don't need a war wagon with wheels. A good ole' stool will more than work. I like the big stool from Creedmore. Mat. Make sure it's got rubber on the shooters end. Coat. Creedmoore. They will build you a custom coat. I like the pads, you don't really need the fancy zippers on the back so you can sit. I know some who have these, mine dosen't. Mine works just as well as my friends. Glove. Well the $18.00 one works as good as the $38.00 one. www.creedmoorsports.com www.champchoice.com http://www.ray-vin.com www.okweber.com I'm sure there are more supply people out there, but these are the one I use the most. Positions: Check http://www.highpowerforum.com/ They have a good thread on proper positions with pictures. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers. Last edited by Tim R; January 2, 2008 at 02:37 PM.

December 30, 2007, 08:12 AM	#2
boltgun71 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 547	As I understand it Rock River Arms is the top of the line for a factory NM AR. I have a Rock River NM A2 and it is fantastic. I paid $1,100 even for mine. With the Rock River you will have your choice between A2 or A4 configuration, .040 or .030 rear apetures, 1/4 MOA or 1/2MOA sights, depending on where you live Pre- or Post- ban configuration, and black or OD green furniture. As for your question of looking for A2 or A4 configuration, I would check with all the manufacturers you are considering and ask if their carry handles on A4's are truely adjustable to 600yds for competition. I know Rock Rivers are good to 600yds and they advertise that. I guess some manufactures when making their carry handles, due to the machining of it have to take away from some of the sights adjustment room for them to properly fit and you end up with a sight that doesn't adjust fully to 600yds. I would assume that on a companies NM model they would ensure their NM A4's were adjustable to 600yds though. You wont have to worry about this issue with an A2. Get whatever makes you happy though. Hope this helps.

December 30, 2007, 07:29 PM	#3
Mike_In_MD Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 33	+1 on the Rock River. I have the thier A4 DCM Match rifle. The trigger and the sub MOA accuracy is simply amazing.

December 30, 2007, 07:40 PM	#4
TNT_Shooter Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2007 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 101	I was thinking about what AR to get and after reading these couple of "replies", I am sold on the Rock River. A friend of mine who traditionally uses Colt AR's said he is switching to Rock River as well. I have perused their website and they seem to be very confident of their product. TNT

January 2, 2008, 11:59 PM	#9
jc121 Member Join Date: October 27, 2002 Location: co Posts: 80	Good choice on rifles It will serve you well. you were given a good choice on the black hills ammo. The rest depends on how much you want to spend and what you want to do. as far as books and tapes the cmp ones on their web site from the amu are pretty good. you can spend money on books and not get near out of them as those amu ones from the cmp. as far as equipment you have gotten some good advice on scopes. If you are just starting out I would watch what i spent untill I new i wanted to do it over the long run. now as far as jackets and mats there is nothing wrong with used.If you know your size ebay or some hp forum sites would be a good place to start. I would go with creedmore on the coat as they are the most common and have a very good rep. mats I would go with a roll up and there are a few good brands out there. scopes? the kowa works well but will run you about what your rifle did for the big one. i guess the scope depends on what you plan on doing. for example I like the large kowa but i use it for coaching and it lets me see more down range as far as conditions go. now at 200 yards if i can not see the holes with my 80mm you can not see them with a 60mm and vice versa. some folks like the 661 kowa for the price and weight advantage. really think about reloading if you get into it more as it will save you big bucks over the long haul. nothing wrong with buying what you can aford but remember if you are into it for the long haul the old saying holds true. BUY ONCE CRY ONCE!!!

January 3, 2008, 09:25 PM	#10
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	You did fine. You will be happy with it and it can take you to high master. My experience mirrors Tim R., everything he said is what I have learned, except I like the zipper in the left hand sleave for the Creedmore coat. I have all the upgrades in my jacket, I like the vents and the sleeve zipper. I don't really care about the zippers in the back. A RR lower with a WOP upper is the ultimate IMHO for the money. My suggestion would be to pull the trigger and send it to John (White Oak) and have him do a trigger job on it ($25-$35 if I remember right). Down the road you might want to get the sights pinned, which helps for the 600 yard line. White Oak is the one that does it.

January 29, 2008, 01:09 PM	#11
MythBuster Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2007 Posts: 629	Most everyone I shoot highpower with that uses a factory rifle uses the Rock River. The few that use other factory rifles such as the DCM Bushmaster use the Rock River trigger in their rifle. The Bushmaster two stage match trigger is 100% junk.

March 3, 2008, 03:59 PM	#12
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	What do you guys recommend regarding magazines? Are the MagPul plastic jobs "legal" for CMP/National Match events or are you required to use metal mags? Can curved mags be used or must you use straight? Thanks. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

March 3, 2008, 06:23 PM	#13
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	Most everyone uses a 20 round mag. There are a couple of rasons. 1. you will never put more than 8 rounds in it and 2. Sometimes the 30's drag the ground during prone and the rule book says no part of the rifle may touch the ground. I use Colt mags but any USGI spec mag will work just fine. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

March 3, 2008, 06:24 PM	#14
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	Find some ammo (Black Hills 77grs would be my choice if I was stuck with shooting factory). Get at least 2 20rd mags (or don't; borrow some). You don't need 30s and they'll probably interfere with the prone position. Take rifle and ammo and mags, with a sweatshirt, and a sandwich to a match. Look at everyone elses gear and ask if they'll let you mess around with it. I'd highly recommend against buying gear until you know what it is you want to buy. You won't know till you've got a couple matches under your belt. Or, you could buy now (and replace it later when you find out it's not working for you). Show up to the first match you can get to. Don't worry whether you have any, some, most or all of the gear. Tell the match director you're new and will need to borrow this or that. Having all the stuff isn't going to help your score anyhow.

March 23, 2008, 07:41 AM	#15
firewrench044 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Fort Pierce, Florida Posts: 381	good choice on rifle!! Go to a match or a sceduled practice look at the other shooters equipment, and see what you like and what works for you scopes -- the larger the front lens the better you can see on cloudy days or lower light conditions, some are very happy with a fixed 25 to 30 power rear lens, I have a varrible (it is used for other applications ), Kowa is good, wish I could aford a Lieca ( clearer image ) glove or mit -- try some on, see what you like coat -- I like Creedmore's hard back, with all the zippers and is very vented ( it gets very hot in Florida), again see what you want and like in other peoples coats ( A good coat is a large investment $$$ ) ammo -- most like Blackhills (save your brass, you will reload latter to feed your rifle what it likes the best ) other stuff -- you can start with a piece of carpet and a Walmart camping stool and upgrade latter, take water, or you will dehydrate ( avoid cafeine, makes you shakey), ear muffs or plugs, standard or electronic?- I prefer electronic so I can hear the range comands ( my hearing is impaired ) and the plugs drive me crazy, sling - Turner is good I use one made by Leslie Tam, its thicker and very heavy duty ( I am hard on slings )