dies n stuff for .432"+ cast bullets

oley55 · February 5, 2015, 06:55 PM

if loading for 44 mag with .432" - .4325" bullets, how do you size cases, expand case mouth, and crimp?

does one use a standard case sizing die and then expand the case mouth with a custom die similar to the Lyman M die? Accounting for spring back of the case, how much larger than the bullet should the mouth expander be?

What about crimping? Will the a standard RCBS 44 mag roll-crimp do the job without mangling the larger cast bullet, or is something custom needed?

Smoke & Recoil · February 5, 2015, 07:06 PM

But, but, but......44 mag bullet diameter is .429

stagpanther · February 5, 2015, 07:14 PM

My RCBS 3 die pistol die set comes with a stepped mouth expander--particularly useful with cast lead bullets. Roll crimp will work fine--generally should roll right into the cannelure. You didn't say what you were firing through--but you need a healthy crimp if it's a revolver or tubular magazine. The .432 portion--that's beyond the cannelure on your bullet--is it not?

oley55 · February 5, 2015, 07:31 PM

Quote:

But, but, but......44 mag bullet diameter is .429

I assume you are just joking with that.

Quote:

My RCBS 3 die pistol die set comes with a stepped mouth expander

are you saying that standard stepped expander for .429/.430" cast bullets is actually big enough for a .432" bullet without shaving lead or sizing down the bullet?

FrankenMauser · February 5, 2015, 07:45 PM

Your expander should not be larger than bullet diameter, unless you don't care about neck tension. ... Which should not be the case with .44 Mag/.44 Spcl.

I use:
Lyman M die for expanding.
Lyman seating die for seating. (Just what I ended up with. -Not chosen specifically for the job.)
Standard sizing die.
... Never had a problem with bullets up to .4335".

With .444 Marlin, however, my Hornady seating die craps all over itself if you stuff anything larger than 0.4315" in it. The crimp sleeve must be modified for larger bullets.
So, I usually have to get creative and find a way to use another die for seating cast bullets.
One of these days, I'll get the crimp sleeve opened up. One of these days...

stagpanther · February 5, 2015, 07:52 PM

My bullets are not as wide as yours--I'm kinda stumped too by an overall diameter of .432 if that's what it is (below the crimp cannelure?). I'm guessing you're loading for an older firearm with oversize bore (are you sure)?? I'm not sure if conventional 44 mag dies are up to speed for that--might need something custom.

In any event, the stepped expander flares out from the initial mouth step--I guess theoretically you could just seat it deeper to get a wider flare on the case mouth--I've never needed to do that with any 44 mag bullet I've loaded.

oley55 · February 5, 2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

I use:
Lyman M die for expanding.
Lyman seating die for seating. (Just what I ended up with. -Not chosen specifically for the job.)
Standard sizing die.
... Never had a problem with bullets up to .4335".

I guess your seating die is a combination crimp/seating die.

Quote:

My bullets are not as wide as yours--I'm kinda stumped too by an overall diameter of .432 if that's what it is (below the crimp cannelure?). I'm guessing you're loading for an older firearm with oversize bore (are you sure)?? I'm not sure if conventional 44 mag dies are up to speed for that--might need something custom.

for an 84 Redhawk with .4326" cylinder throats into a .430" tube.

stagpanther · February 5, 2015, 08:37 PM

I thought you were asking specifically about a case mouth expander. I have no experience sizing 44 mag for over-size bores--though my understanding is that you generally do not want to exceed .001 greater than bore diameter in the bullet diameter in lead bullets. Sorry.

FrankenMauser · February 6, 2015, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oley55

I guess your seating die is a combination crimp/seating die.

Yes. Roll crimp / seating die.
But, I do not seat and crimp at the same time - ever.
If the load gets crimped, I do so as an additional step.

Quote:

I thought you were asking specifically about a case mouth expander. I have no experience sizing 44 mag for over-size bores--though my understanding is that you generally do not want to exceed .001 greater than bore diameter in the bullet diameter in lead bullets. Sorry.

Measure yours.
I'd be surprised if it ISN'T "oversized".
There's a reason why some companies, like Hornady, don't even make .429" bullets - just .430". ....Because many .44 caliber barrels actually have 0.430-0.432" groove diameters. (And nearly ALL .444 Marlin barrels are 0.4315-0.432" groove diameter.)

You can go as far oversize as you want, as long as the cartridge will still chamber. --Providing that you're adhering to the standard reloader's rules of "start low and work up".
Pressures don't change much, but you still shouldn't substitute a 0.432" bullet in place of an 'identical' 0.429" bullet without reducing the powder charge and working back up as usual.

Most bullet casters actually prefer bullets sized at least 0.002" over groove diameter.

I make .432" jacketed bullets for my own use. They're mainly for .444 Marlin, but I do also load them for .44 Mag. If it chambers, you can shoot it.

oley55 · February 6, 2015, 08:11 AM

Quote:

But, I do not seat and crimp at the same time - ever.

Ditto. Did that 30+ years ago when I first started reloading, if that could be called reloading. Hell I didn't even have a powder scale and relied entirely on my Lee powder dippers and cardboard calculator. Who knew just how ignorant I was back then. I know I didn't.

Today I sometimes wonder if that cracked Redhawk barrel wasn't because I had been shooting an excessive Unique load.

At least today, I know enough to recognize my own ignorance. Well most of the time, that is.

FrankenMauser · February 6, 2015, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Today I sometimes wonder if that cracked Redhawk barrel wasn't because I had been shooting an excessive Unique load.

Sounds like a bad day.

...But I'm glad you're still around to talk about it.

stagpanther · February 6, 2015, 08:42 AM

I'm not nearly as experienced as you guys are--I've only loaded a thousand rounds or so for my SBH and M92 carbine which are both 44 mag but have never had any issues even with my warm loads. In, out, fires, extracts no problems. My brass seems to last well through many reloads too, at least so far. For 44 mag I prefer hornady new dimension dies over RCBS--I like their support sleeve on the seating die.

Quote:

Today I sometimes wonder if that cracked Redhawk barrel wasn't because I had been shooting an excessive Unique load.

nice double entendre--touche. : )

rodfac · February 6, 2015, 09:22 AM

I load .432" dia home cast bullets for my Marlin .44 Magnum due to it's .432" bore. I use the same bullets for three Ruger .44 Specials, a Ruger .44 Magnum BH, and a pair of S&W M29's. All of the revolvers have .430"-.431" throats and shoot somewhat better with the a dia. bullet but even with the .432" bullets, groups run well below 2" at 25 yds and with no signs of excess pressure. I do not load that dia. bullet for high end loads in either the rifle nor the the hand guns however.

I've used both Dillon and Lee dies with no problems with either dia.

HTH's Rod

Smoke & Recoil · February 6, 2015, 06:35 PM

@ oley55

Nope, I wasn't joking, but I'm learning more as this (your) thread continues.

oley55 · February 6, 2015, 06:50 PM

on that RH cracked barrel 1984 or 85, I didn't have an abnormal load or indication of a problem. in fact I didn't realize there were any cracks.

I did notice two or three very fine scuff looking marks about 2" from the frame and maybe 3/4" long. While hunting in SE Ohio (more like West VA) I was crossing a field behind an old farm house. The owner came out and we chatted for a bit and he asked if he could see the Redhawk.

He didn't have it in his hands for more than thirty seconds when he says, "this barrel has cracks in it." Those fine scuff marks were actually very fine cracks.

Turns out he was a metallurgist or something like that in one of the mills in that area.

Anyway, I stopped hunting with it and sent it off to Ruger. It came back with a new barrel and absolutely no documentation or mention of having replaced the barrel.

I have been told it was probably the result of the heat treating process employed by Ruger back then. Pretty amazing because they are built like tanks.

February 5, 2015, 06:55 PM	#1
oley55 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2013 Location: JAX, FL Posts: 377	dies n stuff for .432"+ cast bullets if loading for 44 mag with .432" - .4325" bullets, how do you size cases, expand case mouth, and crimp? does one use a standard case sizing die and then expand the case mouth with a custom die similar to the Lyman M die? Accounting for spring back of the case, how much larger than the bullet should the mouth expander be? What about crimping? Will the a standard RCBS 44 mag roll-crimp do the job without mangling the larger cast bullet, or is something custom needed?

February 5, 2015, 07:14 PM	#3
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	My RCBS 3 die pistol die set comes with a stepped mouth expander--particularly useful with cast lead bullets. Roll crimp will work fine--generally should roll right into the cannelure. You didn't say what you were firing through--but you need a healthy crimp if it's a revolver or tubular magazine. The .432 portion--that's beyond the cannelure on your bullet--is it not? Last edited by stagpanther; February 5, 2015 at 07:31 PM.

February 5, 2015, 07:45 PM	#5
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Your expander should not be larger than bullet diameter, unless you don't care about neck tension. ... Which should not be the case with .44 Mag/.44 Spcl. I use: Lyman M die for expanding. Lyman seating die for seating. (Just what I ended up with. -Not chosen specifically for the job.) Standard sizing die. ... Never had a problem with bullets up to .4335". With .444 Marlin, however, my Hornady seating die craps all over itself if you stuff anything larger than 0.4315" in it. The crimp sleeve must be modified for larger bullets. So, I usually have to get creative and find a way to use another die for seating cast bullets. One of these days, I'll get the crimp sleeve opened up. One of these days... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 6, 2015, 09:22 AM	#13
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	I load .432" dia home cast bullets for my Marlin .44 Magnum due to it's .432" bore. I use the same bullets for three Ruger .44 Specials, a Ruger .44 Magnum BH, and a pair of S&W M29's. All of the revolvers have .430"-.431" throats and shoot somewhat better with the a dia. bullet but even with the .432" bullets, groups run well below 2" at 25 yds and with no signs of excess pressure. I do not load that dia. bullet for high end loads in either the rifle nor the the hand guns however. I've used both Dillon and Lee dies with no problems with either dia. HTH's Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

February 5, 2015, 07:06 PM	#2
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	But, but, but......44 mag bullet diameter is .429

February 5, 2015, 07:52 PM	#6
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	My bullets are not as wide as yours--I'm kinda stumped too by an overall diameter of .432 if that's what it is (below the crimp cannelure?). I'm guessing you're loading for an older firearm with oversize bore (are you sure)?? I'm not sure if conventional 44 mag dies are up to speed for that--might need something custom. In any event, the stepped expander flares out from the initial mouth step--I guess theoretically you could just seat it deeper to get a wider flare on the case mouth--I've never needed to do that with any 44 mag bullet I've loaded.

February 5, 2015, 08:37 PM	#8
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	I thought you were asking specifically about a case mouth expander. I have no experience sizing 44 mag for over-size bores--though my understanding is that you generally do not want to exceed .001 greater than bore diameter in the bullet diameter in lead bullets. Sorry.

February 6, 2015, 06:35 PM	#14
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 714	@ oley55 Nope, I wasn't joking, but I'm learning more as this (your) thread continues.

February 6, 2015, 06:50 PM	#15
oley55 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2013 Location: JAX, FL Posts: 377	on that RH cracked barrel 1984 or 85, I didn't have an abnormal load or indication of a problem. in fact I didn't realize there were any cracks. I did notice two or three very fine scuff looking marks about 2" from the frame and maybe 3/4" long. While hunting in SE Ohio (more like West VA) I was crossing a field behind an old farm house. The owner came out and we chatted for a bit and he asked if he could see the Redhawk. He didn't have it in his hands for more than thirty seconds when he says, "this barrel has cracks in it." Those fine scuff marks were actually very fine cracks. Turns out he was a metallurgist or something like that in one of the mills in that area. Anyway, I stopped hunting with it and sent it off to Ruger. It came back with a new barrel and absolutely no documentation or mention of having replaced the barrel. I have been told it was probably the result of the heat treating process employed by Ruger back then. Pretty amazing because they are built like tanks.