.303 Bullet ID

Jim567 · October 21, 2015, 12:29 PM

Got this single bullet in a bag of other caliber my neighbor gave me.
The color of the brass, the triple crimp, the markings and the blue sealer around the primer all look exactly like so much military .303 surplus I have purchased over the years.
But - it looks like a 150 grain bullet, soft nose.
Markings are:

11A

1942

D1

Z

It contains powder not cordite. Primer is crimped.

Ah - grooves for crimping are showing just above neck - maybe it is a reload?

T. O'Heir · October 21, 2015, 01:17 PM

It's not a bullet. It's a cartridge. Very likely a reloaded cartridge at that with the SP. What colour's the primer?
Not seeing 11A, but there are several places that used 11. However, given the 1942 date, I'd say "Not a manufacturer's code, but rather a load identification code used by Pretoria Metal Pressing Ltd Pretoria, RSA on brass cases."
The others are Prvi and Chinese.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes

Jim567 · October 21, 2015, 01:50 PM

"It's not a bullet. It's a cartridge"

It's been a long day at the computer - sorry I was cross eyed.

.303 Lee Enfield uses both clip and magazine

lol would have had that terminology covered.

I assumed it might not have been a reload at first blush because of the blue sealer around the primer. The primer however is gold. Also the whole cartridge has the same patina.

What I though was blue sealer may be just grunge. .

Jim567 · October 21, 2015, 02:05 PM

Thanks for the link, it got me started.

DI marking is -

Defence Industries, Verdun, Canada. Known to have produced .303 cartridges in... Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mk 7Z (Canadian Pattern)

the other markings, V11 and Z, indicate nitro cellulose and the bullet I believe.

Certainly a reload

gyvel · October 21, 2015, 02:16 PM

You are correct. Colloquially, ammo from DI is usually referred to as "Verdun."

wogpotter · October 21, 2015, 04:33 PM

I had a box of almost identical ammo. Mine was headstamped DI Z 1943. (Defence Industries Ltd., Canadian Industries Ltd, Park Avenue Plant, Montreal, Canada)
Was it a reload? well, yeah kind of sorta, a Factory rebullet to be exact.

Supposedly they pulled standard .303 174 Gr & seated a commercial SP bullet of a lower weight so they knew it would be safe. The blue sealer round the primer indicates these were originally loaded with incendiary bullets. Mk VII ball would have been a purple sealer.

All non cordite (string spaghetti) powder powered .303 British was "Z" marked so its quite likely the original charge. Even though all British made MkVII was cordite a lot of the Canadian stuff wasn't they used essentially IMR 3031 a long grain stick powder.
I doubt its South African because they referred to .303 British as "7.7 X 56R", or later "R1 M3Z" & Pretoria Metal Pressings headstamp was "PMP".
(image (c) wogpotter 2013)

Jim567 · October 21, 2015, 08:34 PM

Amazing!
Something was telling me this wasn't just a garage hand load!
Back when I hand loaded .303 I used IMR3031 and a Speer 150 grain sp for an accuracy load. It was!

James K · October 23, 2015, 10:37 PM

The case is Canadian, as the other Jim says. The markings are the Roman number VII (Mk VII) not 11A. The round is not a reload as it was never fired. In the late 1940's and 1950's it was common for companies to use a collet setup to pull the FMJ bullets from military ammo and replace them with a soft point hunting bullet. The powder charge and primer were not changed, so those rounds are corrosive primed.

WWII South African ammo was marked basically the same as British; as was the ammo of all commonwealth nations. SA metric markings are from years later.

Jim

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:08 AM

I never would have suspected companies doing this with surplus ammo.
VERY interesting.
When I looked over the round there were no marks or scratches indicating it had been fired previously.
The patina on bullet and case were exactly the same.
My first thought was that maybe some hunting rounds were loaded during WW2 for "survival".
Very cool info. Thanks!

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 10:15 AM

http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...4340E.jpg.html

http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...8DE1B.jpg.html

wogpotter · October 24, 2015, 12:19 PM

Back then "in the day" MilSurp was so cheap & available it was worth the effort of pulling the military bullet & inserting a SP hunting round for sale.It cost less as surplus than making new would have.

T. O'Heir · October 24, 2015, 01:21 PM

"....303 Lee Enfield uses both clip and magazine..." Both variations were loaded with chargers. No extras mags.
That's a standard issue .303 Ball round. Not a reload.
Cartridge, Mk VII
Accepted 1910
Smokeless powder load. Boxer or Berdan primed. 174 gr pointed bullet.
Muzzle Velocity - 2440fps

'DI' is Defence Industries Montreal, Quebec.
Verdun, Quebec is 'DIV'.
http://www.303british.com/index.html

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 02:09 PM

The Lee Enfields have a detachable magazine.
It was charged with a charger or "clip".
I was being lighthearted after I got called on discribing a round as a "bullet".
The round is indeed a factory "rework" from an unfired military surplus round to a 150 grain hunting round.
If you look closely you can see the lead tip.
Cheers
Read Wogpotters post.

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 04:44 PM

Thanks to some very .303 savvy members, this has been a very informative post.
Thanks!!

wogpotter · October 24, 2015, 05:11 PM

Quote:

No extras mags.

While agreeing the magazine wasn't considered in the same way as today's disposable mags are, I'm afraid your statement is wrong.
Question for you.
What is the original purpose of the "loop" in front of the magazine on the bottom metal?
To retain the issued primary magazine on a short 3 link chain, when the second "spare" was inserted. So yes they did come with more than one magazine, at least some of them did.

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 08:45 PM

✌
Lee Enfields are magazine fed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 08:53 PM

99.9 percent of the time from one magazine.
But still a magazine.
Usually only removed for cleaning.
But still.

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 08:57 PM

http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...8C1D2.jpg.html

A bunch of L E magazines

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:02 PM

A LE magazine that has never been charged with a stripper clip in a Rifle that has never been fired.

http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...E5587.jpg.html

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:05 PM

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/885...und-steel-blue

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:07 PM

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/stripperclipenfield.aspx

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:10 PM

I am not an expert in regards to all things Lee Enfield.
But I have collected them and reloaded for them for 40 years.
I still enjoy learning .

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:20 PM

No extras mags.
-------------------

This was not my quote.

All my current magazines in my rifles are serial numbered to the receiver.
The older Lee Enfields I owned did have the loop and I did know what it was for.

Regardless I am correct, LEs use both magazines and clip/chargers.

No extra mags were not a statement from me.

If I was i harms way with a L E I would want one or two extra!!

Jim567 · October 24, 2015, 09:36 PM

Lol! Wogpotter

Just realized you were not quoting me at all

Defensive ain't I lol !!

Just took a chill pill

Cheers

Never would have solved the rounds mystery without you!!

5THBATT · October 25, 2015, 01:24 AM

The very first MLMs were issued with a spare magazine, these spares were ordered to be returned to stores in 1890 & from then on Lee Metfords & then the Lee Enfield were issued with one magazine.

Indeed the Belmont .303 ammo is pulled & replaced with a different projectile using the original powder, the factory is just 2 miles up the road (same street) as me, i know Bruce the owner & have verified that fact with him.
Btw they were tracer rounds, not incendiary

October 21, 2015, 12:29 PM	#1
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	.303 Bullet ID Got this single bullet in a bag of other caliber my neighbor gave me. The color of the brass, the triple crimp, the markings and the blue sealer around the primer all look exactly like so much military .303 surplus I have purchased over the years. But - it looks like a 150 grain bullet, soft nose. Markings are: 11A 1942 D1 Z It contains powder not cordite. Primer is crimped. Ah - grooves for crimping are showing just above neck - maybe it is a reload?

October 21, 2015, 01:17 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	It's not a bullet. It's a cartridge. Very likely a reloaded cartridge at that with the SP. What colour's the primer? Not seeing 11A, but there are several places that used 11. However, given the 1942 date, I'd say "Not a manufacturer's code, but rather a load identification code used by Pretoria Metal Pressing Ltd Pretoria, RSA on brass cases." The others are Prvi and Chinese. http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 21, 2015, 02:16 PM	#5
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	You are correct. Colloquially, ammo from DI is usually referred to as "Verdun." __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

October 21, 2015, 04:33 PM	#6
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	I had a box of almost identical ammo. Mine was headstamped DI Z 1943. (Defence Industries Ltd., Canadian Industries Ltd, Park Avenue Plant, Montreal, Canada) Was it a reload? well, yeah kind of sorta, a Factory rebullet to be exact. Supposedly they pulled standard .303 174 Gr & seated a commercial SP bullet of a lower weight so they knew it would be safe. The blue sealer round the primer indicates these were originally loaded with incendiary bullets. Mk VII ball would have been a purple sealer. All non cordite (string spaghetti) powder powered .303 British was "Z" marked so its quite likely the original charge. Even though all British made MkVII was cordite a lot of the Canadian stuff wasn't they used essentially IMR 3031 a long grain stick powder. I doubt its South African because they referred to .303 British as "7.7 X 56R", or later "R1 M3Z" & Pretoria Metal Pressings headstamp was "PMP". (image (c) wogpotter 2013) __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” Last edited by wogpotter; October 21, 2015 at 04:54 PM.

October 24, 2015, 10:15 AM	#10
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...4340E.jpg.html http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...8DE1B.jpg.html Last edited by Jim567; October 24, 2015 at 10:21 AM.

October 21, 2015, 01:50 PM	#3
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	"It's not a bullet. It's a cartridge" It's been a long day at the computer - sorry I was cross eyed. .303 Lee Enfield uses both clip and magazine lol would have had that terminology covered. I assumed it might not have been a reload at first blush because of the blue sealer around the primer. The primer however is gold. Also the whole cartridge has the same patina. What I though was blue sealer may be just grunge. .

October 21, 2015, 02:05 PM	#4
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Thanks for the link, it got me started. DI marking is - Defence Industries, Verdun, Canada. Known to have produced .303 cartridges in... Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mk 7Z (Canadian Pattern) the other markings, V11 and Z, indicate nitro cellulose and the bullet I believe. Certainly a reload

October 21, 2015, 08:34 PM	#7
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Amazing! Something was telling me this wasn't just a garage hand load! Back when I hand loaded .303 I used IMR3031 and a Speer 150 grain sp for an accuracy load. It was!

October 23, 2015, 10:37 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The case is Canadian, as the other Jim says. The markings are the Roman number VII (Mk VII) not 11A. The round is not a reload as it was never fired. In the late 1940's and 1950's it was common for companies to use a collet setup to pull the FMJ bullets from military ammo and replace them with a soft point hunting bullet. The powder charge and primer were not changed, so those rounds are corrosive primed. WWII South African ammo was marked basically the same as British; as was the ammo of all commonwealth nations. SA metric markings are from years later. Jim

October 24, 2015, 09:08 AM	#9
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I never would have suspected companies doing this with surplus ammo. VERY interesting. When I looked over the round there were no marks or scratches indicating it had been fired previously. The patina on bullet and case were exactly the same. My first thought was that maybe some hunting rounds were loaded during WW2 for "survival". Very cool info. Thanks!

October 24, 2015, 12:19 PM	#11
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Back then "in the day" MilSurp was so cheap & available it was worth the effort of pulling the military bullet & inserting a SP hunting round for sale.It cost less as surplus than making new would have. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

October 24, 2015, 01:21 PM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"....303 Lee Enfield uses both clip and magazine..." Both variations were loaded with chargers. No extras mags. That's a standard issue .303 Ball round. Not a reload. Cartridge, Mk VII Accepted 1910 Smokeless powder load. Boxer or Berdan primed. 174 gr pointed bullet. Muzzle Velocity - 2440fps 'DI' is Defence Industries Montreal, Quebec. Verdun, Quebec is 'DIV'. http://www.303british.com/index.html __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 24, 2015, 02:09 PM	#13
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	The Lee Enfields have a detachable magazine. It was charged with a charger or "clip". I was being lighthearted after I got called on discribing a round as a "bullet". The round is indeed a factory "rework" from an unfired military surplus round to a 150 grain hunting round. If you look closely you can see the lead tip. Cheers Read Wogpotters post. Last edited by Jim567; October 24, 2015 at 02:47 PM.

October 24, 2015, 04:44 PM	#14
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Thanks to some very .303 savvy members, this has been a very informative post. Thanks!!

October 24, 2015, 08:45 PM	#16
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	✌ Lee Enfields are magazine fed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield Last edited by Jim567; October 24, 2015 at 08:50 PM.

October 24, 2015, 08:53 PM	#17
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	99.9 percent of the time from one magazine. But still a magazine. Usually only removed for cleaning. But still.

October 24, 2015, 08:57 PM	#18
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...8C1D2.jpg.html A bunch of L E magazines

October 24, 2015, 09:02 PM	#19
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	A LE magazine that has never been charged with a stripper clip in a Rifle that has never been fired. http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/Ji...E5587.jpg.html Last edited by Jim567; October 24, 2015 at 09:14 PM.

October 24, 2015, 09:05 PM	#20
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	http://www.midwayusa.com/product/885...und-steel-blue

October 24, 2015, 09:07 PM	#21
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/stripperclipenfield.aspx

October 24, 2015, 09:10 PM	#22
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I am not an expert in regards to all things Lee Enfield. But I have collected them and reloaded for them for 40 years. I still enjoy learning .

October 24, 2015, 09:20 PM	#23
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	No extras mags. ------------------- This was not my quote. All my current magazines in my rifles are serial numbered to the receiver. The older Lee Enfields I owned did have the loop and I did know what it was for. Regardless I am correct, LEs use both magazines and clip/chargers. No extra mags were not a statement from me. If I was i harms way with a L E I would want one or two extra!! Last edited by Jim567; October 24, 2015 at 09:34 PM.

October 24, 2015, 09:36 PM	#24
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	Lol! Wogpotter Just realized you were not quoting me at all Defensive ain't I lol !! Just took a chill pill Cheers Never would have solved the rounds mystery without you!! Last edited by Jim567; October 24, 2015 at 10:04 PM.

October 25, 2015, 01:24 AM	#25
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	The very first MLMs were issued with a spare magazine, these spares were ordered to be returned to stores in 1890 & from then on Lee Metfords & then the Lee Enfield were issued with one magazine. Indeed the Belmont .303 ammo is pulled & replaced with a different projectile using the original powder, the factory is just 2 miles up the road (same street) as me, i know Bruce the owner & have verified that fact with him. Btw they were tracer rounds, not incendiary Last edited by 5THBATT; October 25, 2015 at 03:02 AM.