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Old July 11, 2013, 03:25 PM   #1
pearlhandle
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Reloading 38special & 357 magnum

I have been reloading 30/30s for over 35 years with no problems.
I now have a S&W 357 magnum with a 4" barrel. Shoots great!
I want to start reloading for it.
This is what I have: Blue Dot Smokeless Powder, CCI No.500 pistol primers, Winchester 38/357 158gr JHP Notched Bullets and lots of spent brass.
These are my questions:
*What's a good powder load for target shooting with 38 cal shells with these 158 gr bullets?
**What's a good powder load for target shooting with 357 cal shells with these 158 gr bullets?
***I have shells from Federal 158 gr JSP, Winchester 110 gr JHp, & UMC 125 gr JSP. When I reload 30/30s, the brands don't matter, nor the bullet weights that were in them; same here, right? I can just pick a bullet weight and match the powder charge to it as long as they are all 357 shells.
****I also have a bunch of silver 38 Special shells from R-P, Western, and Federal. And shells from Winchester FMJs. Are these silver shells reloadable and what's the difference between them and the brass ones?
That's all for now. That oughta get me started.
Thanks!
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Old July 11, 2013, 03:29 PM   #2
madmo44mag
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My go to powder for 357 mag is IMR4227
15.2 grains under a 157gn bullet.
Most accurate powder in 357 I have found in all my years reloading.
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Old July 11, 2013, 04:43 PM   #3
SL1
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Blue Dot powder will work in both the .357 Magnum and the .38 Special with your 158 grain jacketed bullets. But, it is probably not the best choice. And, of course, the powder charge weights will be different for the two cases, both because the cases have different volumes and because the .38 Special is normally loaded to a much lower pressure than the .357 Magnum. If you are going to shoot the .38 Specials in a gun chambered for the .357 Magnum, then the Special cases COULD be loaded to .357 Magnum pressures, but it requires a charge weight reduction from the .357 Magnum data to offset the smaller case volume. And, doing that creates a potential danger that somebody might pick-up those hot .38 Special reloads and use them in a weak .38 Special gun that would then blow-up.

Another thing to know is that Alliant withdrew its Blue Dot load data for light (125 grain and less) bullets in the .357 Magnum because of pressure spike issues. And, some companies have stopped recommending .38 Special loads with jacketed bullets of 158 grains or more except for "+P" loads, due to concerns of sticking bullets in the bore of some guns.

Powders that I like for both cartridges are Power Pistol and Bullseye for mid-power and light target loads. For top loads in the .357 Magnum, I like H-110, which is the same as W-296. But, those two powders cannot be down-loaded safely. Alliant 2400 gives similar velocities to H-110, but can safely be down-loaded.

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Old July 11, 2013, 04:57 PM   #4
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I didn't like Blue Dot in my .357 loads. I've never tried it in .38 special, but I would think it wouldn't burn very well at those lower pressures. I could be wrong though.

For my target loads in both calibers I love 231/HP38.
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Old July 11, 2013, 05:06 PM   #5
overhead
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I use Titegroup or w231, but I only load 38 special in 38 special cases.

I assume the shiney cases are nickel plated and I do reload mine. If they are dull they maybe aluminum or steel, I do not reload those.
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Old July 11, 2013, 05:45 PM   #6
Nick_C_S
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I think Blue Dot for the 158 in the 357 is a good choice - ballistically. It has been my experience however, that Blue Dot tends be kind of dirty and likes to gum up revolvers. It was that which prompted me to switch to Winchester 296 (Hodgdon H110).

I'd steer away from loading 158's for 38 special entirely. Stick with 125's. But if you're going to do it, Blue Dot is fine.

You should consider other powders n bullets too. 158's are great for barrels 6" or more; but "just okay" for 4" barrels. And not good for barrels less than 4". 158's are just too heavy to get up and moving fast through short barrels. Just my opinion.

4" barreled 357's like 125's much better.

Everything above here ^, I'm talking jacketed bullets. I load lead 158 SWC 38 Specials all the time (with W231, AA2, or HS6 powder though - not BD, it's too slow).
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Old July 11, 2013, 05:51 PM   #7
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The silver shells are nickel. I try not to flair them any more than necessary to get the bullet started. That's true with brass as well but more so with nickel to get maximum life out of them. Said another way, I generally don't load lead in my nickel cartridges.

Powders unique 700x and power pistol all work well for mid power loads
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:26 PM   #8
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I like Accurate #9 and 2400 for 357 mag. in my 2.75" barrel.
For 38spl I use Accurate #5 and VV N340 with jacketed bullets, with my lead target loads I prefer W-231 and Bullseye.
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:33 PM   #9
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Use the Blue Dot with the 158 jacketed bullets in .357, and try to find a different powder for .38 Special and for lighter bullets in the .357 -- 231 or Bullseye or Unique would all be good choices.

I always shoot lead in .38, and more often than not in .357 too. Look for some 158 grain SWC or RNFP bullets and you can use them in both, and they are cheaper than jacketed.
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Old July 12, 2013, 01:54 AM   #10
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Universal is a great powder for .38 or .357 target loads. 231/HP38 or Unique would be good choices too.
I do sort my .357 brass by head stamp, but it's probably not critical.
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:05 AM   #11
ozo
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I use more W231 than any other for handguns.
BUT....
For competition accuracy I use W231/HP38 in .38special
and H110 in .357magnum
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:20 AM   #12
pearlhandle
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Thanks!

Thanks to everyone for your help! It'll take me a while to digest all this.
I'll come back sometime next week.
GBY!
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Old July 12, 2013, 02:48 PM   #13
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I load and shoot a lot of both .38 and .357. While I have used cast lead bullets in the past, I have a very large supply of both jacketed and plated bullets on hand at the moment, so I'm using those bullets and haven't played with cast lead in either chambering in a long time.

In .38 Special, I use 125gr, 130gr and 158 grain bullets and my favorite powders are Titegroup, Universal and Power Pistol. Titegroup makes for solid, accurate loads with very low charge weight and the powder meters VERY well for me. Universal gives great accuracy but runs dirty and leaves a lot of unburnt flakes, so I don't care for it as much. Power Pistol is a powder I run in 'hot' .38 loads and I do have a good reason to run 'hot' .38 loads... because I have a Coonan semi-auto and when running it with the accessory 10lb spring designed for use with .38 Special... only ballsy loads need apply if I want to make the pistol run. So I push 125gr slugs to 1,050 fps with Power Pistol, but my load isn't proper for posting on a forum. I also run these loads from a S&W Model 10-10HB that's a DOC trade-in, so it gets run hard and put away wet. It's a little slappy in the hand when shooting, but it knocks down steel plates with about as much authority as any 125gr .38 Special load is likely to do. I do love this load.

In .357 Magnum, slower powders are required. I do make some mind-range "magnum" loads using Power Pistol and Universal, but those are just for fun and it's extremely easy to tell when shooting them that they are NOT full powered and proper .357 Magnum loads. Still enjoyable to shoot, but for the full effect of the round, those powders will not do it.

For the serious magnum loads, I use Alliant 2400 and Accurate #9. Lately I have been experimenting with Alliants "new" Power Pro 300-MP. I think it's a fine powder but the lofty velocity claims leave me frustrated.

Two other powders I will mention for .357 Magnum... one is Hodgdon Lil'Gun. With this powder, I have rung up some impressive velocities - but it has a nasty reputation for eroding forcing cones. I can no "proof" of this but simple searches can return many complaints about it. Since I love my guns, I'm simply not planning to do anymore work in .357 Magnum with Lil'Gun.

The other powder is Hodgdon Longshot. I bought this stuff to run some spicy 10mm loads, which it does well, but it will also make some spiffy .357 Magnum loads safely. You may not get quite the velocity as you can with the hardcore, full magnum powders like AA#9 and H110... but you can make decent velocity with like HALF the charge weight. It is definitely a player for .357 Magnum, IMO.

As to your "silver" cases, as was mentioned -- those are nickel plated brass. Good news and bad news... nickel brass is much easier to work with, especially in revolvers. They load easier, they eject easier and they stay cleaner and clean up easier. The nickel plating is smooth and allows them to slide freely. They also look great. But they don't last as long and they will split in the case mouth or along the side of the cartridge case far sooner. When they split, either way, it's not a safety issue, but they can't be reloaded after that. Personally... I love nickel plated revolver brass. I don't like the idea that they aren't as "tough" and won't give as long a service life, but they are pure joy to work with. And oh so pretty!
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Old July 12, 2013, 03:13 PM   #14
Westy39
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OK, I can't believe your post. I too started to reload .38 and .357 due to a trade I made. I traded a 10 inch table saw for some reloading equipment. There was a 3/4 full can of Hercules Blue dot powder included in the trade. I later found a couple hundred 158 grain bullets as well as some 158 grain SWC. I wanted more information just like you and the people on this forum came through for me and I know they will assist you. I can only say the information about Blue Dot being dirty is true in light loads. I made some light loads using 6.5 grains of blue dot behind a 158 grain bullet with a CCI 500 primer. It shoots, light recoil, smoke, and it really makes my j frame dirty. I won't load anymore that light again I am gradually moving up and have found the Blue Dot is much cleaner the closer you get to the max load recipe. I don't load for max I load to shoot and enjoy shooting. I don't want to damage a firearm or get injured just to achieve a new max load. My limited knowledge allows me to ask lots of questions and I have found that the wise and sage advise given on this forum should be given heed. Then just go out and enjoy shooting. Best of luck to you. Just my thoughts from the Big Sky Country, Montana...
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Old July 12, 2013, 03:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
I made some light loads using 6.5 grains of blue dot behind a 158 grain bullet with a CCI 500 primer. It shoots, light recoil, smoke, and it really makes my j frame dirty. I won't load anymore that light again I am gradually moving up and have found the Blue Dot is much cleaner the closer you get to the max load recipe.
I think it would be safe to suggest that this is true for ALL smokeless powders. I believe it's a big part of the reason that almost all factory ammo is run at "maximum" loads. They may not be the fastest velocity for any bullet weight, they may not offer any specific performance guarantee (some do) but across the board, almost all factory ammo is a "max" load.

They do it to ensure function, and they do it to burn all of the powder and provide a "cleaner running" product that folks will want to buy again the next time.
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Old July 14, 2013, 08:06 AM   #16
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I used to shoot Blue Dot in my 357. It was ok, but I read the warnings and when the canister got low I dumped the rest and didn't replace it.

I have good luck with 2400. And for lighter 38 loads, Unique.
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Old July 14, 2013, 11:00 AM   #17
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I like Red Dot in my .357s. 5.0g over 158g SWC. Yes, it a 'light' .357 load (1000fps) but if I need 'heavier' I just move up in caliber. Excellent accurate target/small varmit load. Don't shoot .38s...
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Old July 14, 2013, 01:18 PM   #18
lee n. field
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Quote:
*What's a good powder load for target shooting with 38 cal shells with these 158 gr bullets?
**What's a good powder load for target shooting with 357 cal shells with these 158 gr bullets?
<shrug>. I use Bullseye for pretty much everything. 3.8 grains of Bullseye behind a 158 grain bullets is good (.38 Special).

Quote:
***I have shells from Federal 158 gr JSP, Winchester 110 gr JHp, & UMC 125 gr JSP. When I reload 30/30s, the brands don't matter, nor the bullet weights that were in them; same here, right? I can just pick a bullet weight and match the powder charge to it as long as they are all 357 shells.
Brand of case doesn't matter.

Quote:
****I also have a bunch of silver 38 Special shells from R-P, Western, and Federal. And shells from Winchester FMJs. Are these silver shells reloadable and what's the difference between them and the brass ones?
Yes. I have noticed that nickel plated cases are slightly harder ti size, and split sooner than unplated brass cases.

If you've never loaded .38 or .357, be careful to check powder charge. The case is big enough and tall enough, and the powder charge is small enough, that it's possible to double charge a case.
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:29 PM   #19
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pearhandle, your getting opinions that range from very fast burning flake powders to very slow burning sphericals (ball type). Personally, I wouldn't use a fast burning flake powder in any high pressure cartridge, nor would I use a fast burning spherical like TiteGroup because at high pressure it's known to have pressure spike issues and it burns very hot.

I used to use Blue Dot in .357 & .41 Magnum loads. Going back a ways to the SPEER #11 from the mid 80s when the .357 Magnum's Max. pressure rating was 46,000 CUP, Blue Dot gave the highest velocity with all bullet weights in .357 Magnum. Then there were reports of certain lots of Blue Dot getting away from the manufacturer with pressure stability issues and I stopped using it. It's really on the slow burning side to be used for .38 Special because it needs higher pressure for a completer burn. I switched to AA#9, but the manufacturers that Accurate bought from changed, and there were some questions raised about consistency in powder charges and burn rate, so I moved to yet another that is outstanding and that's Ramshot Enforcer. Accurate 4100 is the same exact powder. Their burn rates are better suited to the smaller case capacity of the .357 Magnum in comparison to powders like H110/W296 and they can be loaded down safely whereas H110/W296 can not. AA#9 is now made in the USA, so with current data it should be fine.

What some of these posts might lead you to conclude is that you need a magnum powder for .357 and something faster burning for .38 Special. I'll get this out of the way first. Anywhere you might use a flake powder, there is a better spherical or ball type. Sphericals tend to be more pressure stable and have lower flash then their flake counterparts. I stopped using flake powders quite a few years ago. There is one ball powder that is so uniform in its burn characteristics that it can be used with very good results in both cartridges and that's Ramshot True Blue and I have used it for both. I have a Ruger Speed-Six with a 2 3/4" barrel that I consider a fine fighting revolver rather than a flamethrower so my defense loads for it are charged with True Blue that will give you velocity just short of full Magnum where I'd use Enforcer but has much less muzzle blast than a Magnum type powder. It will cover a lot of ground in .38 Special as well. Go here: www.ramshot.com for load data. Since Ramshot and Accurate are both owned by Western Powder Co. you'll see data for both brands.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:13 PM   #20
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Welcome to loading and thanks for asking our advice

I recommend lead bullets. They are much less expensive than jacketed. Even copper plated bullets are cheaper than jacketed. Don't worry about leading; at target-load energy levels, lead bullets are just fine unless they are WAY too soft, or undersized.

On powder selection: My general rule is to go to a loading manual (or manuals) with my desired velocity, chosen bullet type and weight and search for a powder that gives that velocity with that bullet.

Example.

Bullet : Lead Semi-wadcutter 150 grain in a .357 magnum case and I want 1,000 feet per second.

In my research, I find that
10 grains of powder X delivers 900 feet per second
14 grains of powder X delivers 1200 fps.

18 grains of powder Y delivers 800 fps
25 grains of powder Y delivers1,100 fps

Which to choose? The one that delivers my desired velocity nearer to the top of its range. Reasoning: Smokeless powder tends to burn cleaner closer to the top of its performance envelope.

On the other hand, since powders tend to be the same price per pound, no matter what their energy density, Powder X will be marginally cheaper to load. It is about half the charge weight of powder Y. On the other hand, charges that fill the cartridge case are desirable for two reasons: Accuracy and velocity may be sensitive to whether or not the powder is close to the primer or far away from the primer upon ignition. Position sensitivity is a factor with some powders more than with some others. Second: A voluminous powder is easier to visually inspect for a short charge or an overcharge, both extremely dangerous conditions.

General rules I follow:

Slow powders that fill the case (H110 and such) are GREAT for maximum power levels. They get erratic and downright dangerous if downloaded to lower power levels.

Fast powders like Bullseye are great for light loads (target shooting) They get up to pressure quickly burn clean and pressure falls off quickly. Since they are energy dense (by weight), they are cheap, but because they are energy dense (by volume), take extra care to weigh and inspect the powder charges.

Trail Boss is a powder that is my favorite recommendation for novice loaders. It is voluminous, so an undetected double charge is virtually impossible (as two charges would overflow most cases). Its performance envelope is of fairly low pressure, so over-pressure conditions (pierced primers, split cases, etc) is unlikely. It is more expensive per pound than most other powders, but recognizing that the cost of the powder is a LOT less than the cost of the bullet, a bottle of Trail Boss is well worth it, at least during the time you are learning the mechanical processes of sizing, priming, seating, crimping, etc. Once you have the mechanics down pat, you can get more sophisticated with powder selection.

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Old July 14, 2013, 08:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
, I wouldn't use a fast burning flake powder in any high pressure cartridge,
I disagree. You see, the cartridge has NOTHING to do with it. It is what velocity you are shooting for which dictates what powder to use. There is absolutely no need for pedal to medal loads in the .357. You can load from 600fps to 1400fps .... Pick the appropriate powder to get where you want to go. Say Red Dot for 1000fps, 4227 for 1300fps.... This range covers fast to slow powders depending on your needs. For target loads the OP is looking for there is no need for obnoxious loud and fast loads. Keep the velocity under 1000fps and you are good to go.

I agree Trail Boss is an excellent powder for low velocity loads (target loads) and dandy for a novice reloader besides. You can't get enough in the case to cause any problems (as long as you don't compress it). and it impossible to double charge due to its nice fluffy nature.
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Old July 15, 2013, 12:39 AM   #22
Sevens
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Quote:
Yes, it a 'light' .357 load (1000fps) but if I need 'heavier' I just move up in caliber.
Quote:
There is absolutely no need for pedal to medal loads in the .357.
There is definitely a need for full-powered, maximum loads that run the full pressure and capability of the cartridge. For 100% certain, there is absolutely a need!

If you have -any- use for a 1,000 fps load in .357 and you can justify it with ANY reason...
...how can you say there is no need for proper, full-powered loads if that's what someone else wants?

I've heard time, time, time and TIME again that so many don't want to run a handload "hard." Hey, that's swell, a big part of why we do this gig is to make exactly what we wish to make. But it's ridiculous to try and press this train of thought on others. That rather than push one cartridge to the proper, safe, industry-standard designed limits... is ludicrous and swapping out guns to something bigger is the right answer.

That's your answer, so it's correct for you.

That's not my answer, I've got zero desire to do that. Hell, I don't even have a tangible use for .357 Magnum other than pure enjoyment, and a big part of that enjoyment is to feel & witness the full spectrum of it's range. It's a glorious thing to light off full-bore thunderous .357 Magnum, especially in a large handgun that helps you do it without punishment.

Using the tired-out rationale of "go to a bigger gun", we should simply all be running .460 S&W Magnum, I suppose, and nothing else. Given that you can shoot .45 Colt in a .460 Smith & Wesson X-frame, and you can run lead slugs in .45 Colt down to 600 fps or run over 2,000 fps with cutting edge performance jacketed slugs, why don't we just retire .357 Magnum to museums anyway?

rclark, I quoted your text to make my point here, but I'm not trying to point a finger at you specifically. The arguments about not running handloads hard and the constant eye-rolling and suggestions of moving to a larger caliber if you wish to hit something as hard as one chambering will allow just grate on my last nerve.

.357 Magnum is a blast because of it's versatility. I don't build 158gr@1,400 fps because I want to make a Model 19 take down a family of grizzlies (that's a fine reason to move to a bigger chambering)... I do it because I can, safely, and it's fun to see what you can do.

The best way to make a .358", 158 grain bullet go over 1,400 feet per second has nothing whatsoever to do with dragging out a .44 Magnum.
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Old July 15, 2013, 06:31 AM   #23
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2004 Alliant Manual:


.357 Mag Brass with 158gr Jacketed:

10.7gr Blue Dot - 1420fps - 33,300PSI


They do not list a load for the .38 special brass with 158gr jacketed,
but do list this load for 160gr jacketed:

4.4gr Blue Dot - 805fps - 16,000PSI


I would reduce the .357 load 10% and work up, but I would be careful about going much lower in the .38spcl brass as you do not want to stick a bullet in the barrel...

BTW...

In the context of THIS thread, rclark is absolutely correct...Nowhere did he say that there is NEVER a need for full-on mag loads, just that this thread is not about that...It is about the components that the OP has on hand...
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Old July 15, 2013, 11:44 AM   #24
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It didn't read that way to me but I do wish to reiterate that it wasn't my intention to point the finger at rclark -- but this idea runs rampant in this forum and many/any/every other handloading forums I visit. It almost seems "wrong" for folks to want to push their handloads to the safe limit of the cartridge, it's constantly suggested to "go to a bigger caliber instead" and I vehemently disagree with that.

I regret that the tone of my post indicates my distate with rclark's postings and I want to say that it wasn't my intention. I simply wish to defend the idea that we have all the tools, components, resources, knowledge and experience to run .357 Magnum to it's potential (and you may choose that potential differently depending on the era of history you may be referring to) and that doing so is a great idea, no matter how unpopular it so often seems to be.
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Old July 15, 2013, 12:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
how can you say there is no need for proper, full-powered loads if that's what someone else wants?
Looking back on my post ... I did say "but if I need...." Notice the 'I'. It is my 'way of thinking' and will stick by it . That said, you can absolutely load whatever you want in your gun (within reason of course) . That is the beauty of reloading for each individuals needs / wants.... But I still think each of us can make suggestions from our individual 'point of view' ... Your free to disagree (vehemently) of course !


Quote:
There is definitely a need for full-powered, maximum loads that run the full pressure and capability of the cartridge. For 100% certain, there is absolutely a need!
For what? Hah! FYI, the "pedal to the metal" quote from me you referenced was specifically pointed at target loads. Paper or steel targets (or gophers or badgers, or other varmints...) do not need to be hammered (nor the hand) with 'high velocity' bullets you can load 'down' and find a nice accurate load to meet your target requirements. It is allowed you know . Ie, As a reloader you do have a 'choice' which is the beauty of reloading. Nuff said!
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