Need help with scope issue, please!

[tsg915]

Ok, so I want to start out by saying I'm a new hunter. I bought a Browning X-Bolt Eclipse Hunter in a .308 and I bought a VX 3 4.5x14x40mm Leupold. I bought all this at a local and well-known outfitting store that sells guns and everything revolved around hunting gear. The guy asked if I wanted him to mount it for me and I said sure (being the new hunter I am, I felt more confident he could do a better job). He bore sighted it with some metal thing he put at the end of the barrel and all that stuff. Well, when I got home I was looking through the scope just because I was in fascination mode and I noticed that when I look through it on full magnification, a black ring appears in the image and the only way to get rid of it is to basically put my eye right up on the scope. When it's on the lowest magnification, the image is full and there is no black ring. I only see the black ring as I start to zoom in on the scope. I've tried googling a ton of things and I can't seem to find the right answer. Sorry if I got any of the lingo wrong, but remember, I'm new at all this. EDIT: I didn't buy a cheap scope and I read that a lot of cheap scopes have bad eye relief problems and that this might be the problem. But, this scope is fairly pricey in my opinion though

[impalacustom]

Eye relief is the problem. You need to set the scope up to your eye. Go back and tell him that you have an eye relief problem, they should be able to fix it quickly.
This page will explain some of it better.
http://www.anstonftc.co.uk/hft-scope-setup-guide/

[tsg915]

Whenever I twist the eye piece assembly to focus it, it looks like the assembly is going to screw off as in you can see the thread that the assembly is twisting on (like the thread on a screw). Is that supposed to happen? Also, should I even be messing with the eye piece assembly since my cross heir isn't blurry? Or does turning the assembly do something else?

[Mobuck]

You shouldn't need to "screw the focus" very far. If the crosshairs aren't blurry, you probably shouldn't be "screwing" it at all. Understand that the image will be blurred at close range and high magnification-it's a riflescope not a microscope.

As stated, you have an eye relief adjustment problem that requires loosening the ring screws and sliding the scope back(will likely need bore sight do-over).

[g.willikers]

You know that the rear focus ring is for making the crosshairs clear, yes?
One problem with figuring out eye relief is to decide to move the scope or use a different cheek weld on the stock.
So you might want to make sure the stock fits you properly, or at least try different ways to mount the rifle, or you could wind up chasing yourself silly trying to see through the scope.

[wogpotter]

I think you have 2 problems, complicated by a misunderstanding.

Try this as a routine to fix it all up.

Mount the (unloaded) rifle as securely as possible. (sandbags will probably do.)
Take a sheet of white unused typing/computer paper & wedge it in front of the scope so that all you can see is featureless white.
Now set the power to its lowest setting.
Adjust the eyepiece so that the reticule looks sharp. Rest the eye by looking away frequently while you do this.
Once "done" look away for a considerable period of time. (resting the eye again).
Now position your head so that your eye is in the correct place to shoot, but with the eyes still closed.
Open the eye. If the reticule is sharp immediately you're done.

Now lets check eye relief.
Without disturbing the setup move your head back & forth along the stock till you JUST see a full field image (bright circle completely fills the eyepiece.). This is the correct eye relief for low power.
Without looking through the scope zoom to the highest power.
Repeat the look for complete image circle.
This is the correct eye relief for High power.

Where is your cheek weld in relation to the scope & stock comb when you get this image? If it's not in a "normal, relaxed" position you need the scope re mounting so that it does work normally when the rifle is mounted.

[tangolima]

The store didn't ask you to try and tell them whether the eye relief was OK when they mounted the scope? That's a lousy job they did.

-TL

[DaleA]

Eye relief question. Note if tsg915 has his eye right up to the scope at the high magnification setting on a .308 rifle he might get hurt.

Disclaimer: I do NOT know how to mount a scope.

(I have a few rifles and a few scopes but only ONE rifle with any significant amount of recoil with a scope on it and I got it used from a friend who had it set up correctly and it works for me and I never changed it.)

If tsg915 is not asking this question then I am.

How can you be sure you have enough eye relief so that you do NOT get 'scope eye', that is the recoil sends the scope back into your eye so that the rear end of the tube cuts the skin above your eye? (Short video showing the problem here)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxemO2nF2Fs

P.S. I type slow. Sorry Tangolima. You asked a very good question while I was trying to get thoughts in order. The answer to this question will probably answer mine.

[tangolima]

The scope has fixed eye relief, usually 3" or so. The scope should be mounted so that the shooter has the best view when he assumes his most comfortable shooting position. It requires interaction between the installer and the user when the scope is being mounted.

No one should need to put his eye right against the eye piece. Whether the eye relief is adequate is function of how well the shooter manages the recoil and how stout the recoil is, assuming he is maintaining the proper eye relief. He will know when he shoots.

The guy in the video apparently put his eye too close (not maintaining proper eye relief) to the eye piece. He doesn't know what he is doing.

-TL

-TL

[wogpotter]

How can you be sure you have enough eye relief so that you do NOT get 'scope eye'

Its determined by the optical design of the scopes lenses. Usually the manual or brochure will tell you the correct position for eye relief. You can't "change" it, but you can adjust the mounting to place it in the correct position for your individual body shape & shooting position.

You can test it yourself, using the method I posted earlier.

What I do is to not fully tighten the scope rings & carefully slide the scope tube back & forth with my head in the normal position I'd shoot in. Again I'm looking for the full rear lens to be filled with image from the scope without squinting.

[DaleA]

Thanks tangolima and wogpotter that answers my question.

[wogpotter]

You're welcome.
What was the answer?

[DaleA]

I came away from the discussion with the following information about scopes.

1. The scope has an adjustment for focus. (Okay I DID know this one.)
2. Some scopes have a parallax adjustment.
3. On a variable scope the eye relief changes as you change magnification and this is normal.
4. The eye relief is built into the design of the scope. You are stuck with whatever it is. There's no 'eye relief' adjustment even on expensive scopes.
5. It would be smart to check before you buy or mount the scope that the eye relief is enough that you won't have the scope hit you in the eye when the rifle recoils. This means you better be familiar with your rifle so you have some idea of what the recoil is going to be and how much eye relief your going to need. If you don't then to paraphrase Mrs. Parker from 'A Christmas Story'---'You'll put your eye out!!!'

So thank you again tangolima, wogpotter and also impalacustom for the link that touched on parallax. Also apologies to tsg915 for hijacking your thread.

[jmr40]

The Leupold VX series of scopes have more eye relief than most any other scope. That shouldn't be an issue here. On the lower magnification most VX scopes have nearly 5" of eye relief, very few others have more than 4" and many have as little as 3". The Leupold has more eye relief on the highest magnification than most of the competition has on the least magnification. This is one reason I like Leupold scopes. Some scopes have a constant eye relief of around 4" at all magnifications.

The OP's problem is easy to fix. Simply loosen the screws on the rings just enough to be able to move the scope back and forth. Move it as far forward as the rings allow, throw it up to your shoulder and check out the view. If it is too far forward keep moving it back slightly until you get it positioned where it works best for you then tighten the ring screws. Make sure the cross hairs are vertical.

Getting hit by the scope is the least important reason to get optimum eye relief. It also is far more forgiving when you can't get the rifle mounted properly to take shots when you have to twist and shoot from unconditional positions. Or if you are wearing heavy clothing which changes how far your scope is from the eye. It also makes it much easier to shoot with both eyes open, which you are supposed to do anyway.

Parallax isn't much of a concern on a hunting rifle. Typically it will only change POI less than 1" at 500 yards at its worst. For a target shooter it may matter, but 3/4" off at 500 yards just isn't a concern for a hunter.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by DaleA

1. The scope has an adjustment for focus. (Okay I DID know this one.)
2. Some scopes have a parallax adjustment.
3. On a variable scope the eye relief changes as you change magnification and this is normal.

The focus adjustment is for the reticle only, not the target. Adjust till the reticle is the sharpest. Ignore the target.

Parallax is focus for the target (sort of, not exactly). Adjust till target is sharp as the reticle, and it doesn't move relative to the reticle when you shift your eye. Some scopes have fixed parallax, mostly at 100yd. In that case, you mustn't move your eye off the scope's axis, or the poa will move.

Eye relief should not change with magnification. But if your eye relief is off to begin with, high magnification makes the problem more noticeable.

All is quite simple really. Some reading on how scope works will make you a better marksman.

-TL

[DaleA]

Getting hit by the scope is the least important reason to get optimum eye relief.

Well, ummm, I guess agree to disagree on this one.

Thanks for the information on the Leupold scopes.

[wogpotter]

It may help to simplify a little.
Think of a telescope, any telescope, including telescopic sights, as 2 matched magnifying glasses separated by a tube.
Each of them is "collimated" (set up) for a specific point of focus. (there are actually 2, one internal & one external on opposite sides of the glass).

The play between them determines all the functions of the complete scope.

The rear one (the eyepiece) adjusts for focus to match your eyesight to the internal point of the eyepiece, which is where the reticule sits.

The front one (the objective) projects the image of the target onto that reticule. Some are "focused" at the factor for a specific distance (frequently 100 yds.) Some have a user adjustable front focus, usually referred to as either an "Adjustable Objective (AO)" or a "Parallax adjustment". The 2 terms mean the exact same thing.

Because of that relationship the front (Objective) focus (if available) is used to actually change the point where the image of the target is projected, making it clear(er) & eliminating any parallax effect caused by the error.

You'll usually be informed if your scope is AO, or not as its a selling feature. If in doubt look at the front end of the bell, there will be a rotatable scale there if it is AO.

The OP's VX 3 4.5x14x40mm Leupold is not an AO scope so its front end is fixed for (presumably) 100yds at the factory. The spec sheet will confirm this.

[wogpotter]

Eye relief should not change with magnification.

Unfortunately it does though!
From Leupold's spec sheet on the OP's scope:

...........................................LOW power.........HIGH power

Eye Relief (in) 	4.40 in 	3.70 in

https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shoo...3-4-5-14x40mm/

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by wogpotter

Unfortunately it does though!
From Leupold's spec sheet on the OP's scope:

...........................................LOW power.........HIGH power

Eye Relief (in) 4.40 in 3.70 in

https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shoo...3-4-5-14x40mm/

OK this is new to me. Mine doesn't do that. In fact, I don't think I like a scope with changing eye relief as much as 3/4". Apparently it is an high end scope that I would be to stingy to experience.

Thanks for the info.

-TL

[SSA]

I don't see any reason to think there's a problem. Focus the eyepiece, and go shooting. Then see what you think.

[wpsdlrg]

Eye relief will ALWAYS change with magnification change - no matter the scope brand or model. The higher the magnification is adjusted, the shorter the eye relief will be. However, high end scopes do a better job with this than cheapo scopes. Many high end scopes are designed to keep the total change to less than 1", so it is usually not a problem (and often not noticed by the shooter). Cheapo garbage scopes can have eye relief that changes by several inches over the magnification range.

One exception: variable magnification LER SCOPES will always have a rather large change in eye relief with magnification adjustment. As a result, depending on the exact mounting position, sometimes a portion of the magnification range is unusable for some shooters.

This is ONE reason why it is important to mount the scope in the proper position for the individual shooter. The exact location for mounting, if properly done, will be a compromise between the highest and lowest settings. But, as I said, with a quality scope, the variation should never be a problem, except with some LER scopes mounted forward of the receiver.

Focusing the eyepiece is NOT a substitute for proper positioning of the scope. The eyepiece focus is only used for getting sharp focus on the RETICLE ("crosshairs"). Every users eyes are different, so that is why eyepiece (Ocular) focus capability is needed.

The problem the OP described, as stated by others previously, IS a problem of the scope NOT being mounted properly to a compromise position between the lowest and highest magnification settings (and thus, the correct eye relief for HIM). The ONLY correct solution is to re-mount the scope PROPERLY for the OP.

[eastbank]

i mount my veriable scope with a full field at the highest power and find i have full field at the lower powers. and i have had scopes with out AO that had 3-4" parallax at 100 yrds and away they went. eastbank.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by SSA

I don't see any reason to think there's a problem. Focus the eyepiece, and go shooting. Then see what you think.

I had to exposition my scope a few times to move 1/4". An off eye relief bugs me. Maybe it is just me. My scope has variable power 3x-9x. But its eye relief doesn't seem to change when I set to different magnifications though.

-TL

[wogpotter]

If you check all the manufactures specs most have a shift, some more than others. Usually shorter with higher power.
There's a small amount of latitude in the correct positioning though so you probably wont ever find it a problem.

[cw308]

Tsg915, instructions come with the scope, its not hard to do yourself. There are helpful video's on line that will walk you through it. Proper cheekweld is very important to. Eye relief should be set by you. Parallax is after it it set up properly.