Beretta garand

[BoogieMan]

I want to buy a garand at some point but I'm in no hurry. I like to let them find me.
Anyway I'm liking a beretta garand but I can't view it in person. Auction sight. What is different on a beretta garand from a springfield or h and r. Is the quality up to par with the us made garands? Am I selling out by buying an American legend that was made in italy?

[Chris_B]

Beretta made high quality M1 rifles. Peacetime production and good craftsmen. In fact Canfield notes that these were reported to represent "the best" of the design.

[Orlando]

So are you looking at a all Beretta Garand or a Beretta mixmaster??

[James K]

I had wanted a Beretta M1 for years, but never could obtain one. Now they are too expensive. They are good rifles and much less common than the U.S. rifles so they should retain their value.

Jim

[BoogieMan]

I am looking at what I believe to be a all Beretta Garand. Also looking at some of the other slightly less common Garands. Not that there is anything right or wrong with them, I just dont want a Springfield or HR. Looked at a Springfield this weekend that was used by Britain and then imported back to the US. Condition was rough so I let it slide by for $900. What does the use by Britain add to the value if anything?

[T. O'Heir]

Peacetime production and good craftsmen paid by a 300 plus year old firearms manufacturing company vs the upstarts at Springfield in the States. Italian M1's were made on U.S. provided equipment if you think that's important.
"...I like to let them find me..." That'd be something to re-consider. I paid $175Cdn. 40 years ago for mine. Could sell it in a heart beat for 10 times that. Or very close to it. And the supply is getting less every day.

[Orlando]

It should have all PB marked parts. If not its not original.

[Dragline45]

Beretta Garands are good to go. In fact surplus Beretta M1 parts are highly sought after for replacing all the crap parts Springfield now puts in their M1A's.

[William T. Watts]

I have a mix of Beretta action with BMB (trigger assembly) and PB (rear sight) that came with a VAR barrel I still have but the bore was in poor condition so I replaced it with a Springfield barrel. I have thought about picking up the correct parts and swap them out but can't quite make myself start changing parts. The rifle does shoot and function correctly and does look good so I should be pleased it functions properly. Most of the time it is in my gun cabinet just can't make myself screw it up by trying to pick up the correct pieces. When I purchased it in Colorado in 2001 Seems I spent about $700.00 and was glad to get it. Without a doubt the rifle has had at least one in depot rebuild, at the time Denmark probably received both Beretta and Breda Garands from Italy. At least this one hasn't been modified and turned into a .308.. FWIW I have no idea what the rifle would sale for if I wanted to get rid of it, I'll leave that decision to my son to decide what to do with it.. William

[P5 Guy]

During the 1950s, Beretta produced Garands in Italy at the behest of NATO, by having the tooling used by Winchester during World War II shipped to them by the U.S. government. These rifles were designated Model 1952 in Italy, and eventually led to variants of their own, the best known of these being the BM59 series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand

[Orlando]

Part of that is true. The Italains were sent WRA Tooling/machines but they were in such bad shape from use and not being properly stored they didnt use them. The Italians actually used the machines for patterns and built their own for manufacturing

[Chris_B]

I'll take Bruce Canfield as my info source re: M1 rifles over Wikipedia any damned day of the week.

[P5 Guy]

Scott Duff and the Garand Collectors Assoc are used as reference for the wiki article.
I'll take Duff's word over Canfield everyday.

[Chris_B]

I seem to have hit a nerve. Please relax. Maybe we can get Scott and Bruce in Thunderdome or something?

Did Duff write each word of the Wiki article? Does Duff say the Berettas were made on worn out tooling?

Unless GCA and Duff wrote the Wiki and maintain the Wiki...I'm sorry, it's an article on Wikipedia, and even encyclopedias can get it wrong. Wikipedia is cited as the gospel truth way too often.

Look at it this way. I can submit an article to scientific journals and cite Einstein as a source for my paper. Am I therefore infallible since I cite Einstein? No, it turns out that all I did was cite him.

Respectfully I'd like a source to examine where Duff or the GCA states that the tooling in question was used to make all the rifles. The Wiki article does not even say 'some". It just says the tooling was sent, and the resultant rifles were designated such and such.

[Dragline45]

I seem to have hit a nerve. Please relax. Maybe we can get Scott and Bruce in Thunderdome or something?

I don't see any indication of P5 Guy getting hostile or losing his cool where it would warrant you to ask him to relax. He literally wrote in the same context as you but just disagreed with your opinion.

[Chris_B]

I don't see any indication of P5 Guy getting hostile or anything where it would warrant you to ask him to relax. He literally wrote in the same context as you but just disagreed with your statement.

Thank you for your opinion. I am sure the man can speak for himself. I am just as certain that he doesn't need a champion to defend himself against me.

[Dragline45]

Thank you for your opinion. I am sure the man can speak for himself. I am just as certain that he doesn't need a champion to defend himself against me.

Someones got an attitude problem. You really gotta work on your social skills there buddy.

[Chris_B]

Someones got an attitude problem. You really gotta work on your social skills there buddy.

Hardly. You're being a policeman and it's not called for. You're treating him as if he needs help and you're treating me as an aggressor, which belittles both of us. You're out of line. We have moderators here. Contact one and ask for clarification.

[P5 Guy]

Visit Scott Duff's web page. He is one of many serious students on the M1 Rifle. Check your local book vendor and pick up a copy of Duff's books on the M1. I see Duff as second behind Hatcher on the development of the M1.

[Slamfire]

Interesting how Corporate Advertizing bureaus have shaped our thinking and view of the world. Made on Winchester tooling, made on Government tooling, these statements have been used ad nauseam to attribute non existent quality characteristics to goods sold by Corporate Entities. This Corporate thinking has so deeply penetrated the shooting community psyche that I am witnessing an argument over where Beretta Garands were made on Winchester toolings, presumed to be the superior tooling by ethnocentric Americans, or Italian toolings, presumed to be inferior by the same Americans.

Here is Winchester tooling. Any firearm made by this level or this chisel is obviously going to be superior to one made on tooling not created by Winchester. Sarcasm intended.









Tooling does not make a rifle, people make these rifles. Tools are devices used in the making of rifles they are an expensive part of any factory, but it takes trained Production Engineers, Production Managers, educated and trained calibration specialists, tool and die makers, Quality Assurance Specialists, Configuration Item managers, draftsman, touch labor, etc, etc, etc to produce a sophisticated precision piece of equipment as a rifle. Beretta has been around since the 1600's and made millions of weapons before WW2 and has probably made millions of weapons since WW2. Beretta was making firearms centuries before Winchester and Springfield Armory existed and is still around now that Winchester is simply a brand name and Springfield Armory a Community College. The Italians are very clever people, they have College Educated Engineers, Designers, Managers and they have an educated work force for the factory floor.

I have no doubt they received tooling from Winchester or Springfield and the Italians took a look at it and scrapped whatever was old and worn out and those kluge machines that performed a special function inefficiently. Then they designed new and better replacements where necessary. They also laid out the production floor and production processes based on their own ideas and philosophies.

The Italian nation is fully capable of building Garands any way they want to. To assume they could not unless they had sanctified American tooling just shows how Corporate Advertizing has messed with your minds.

I built a NM Garand around a BMR receiver. I used as many BMR parts as possible, such as bolt, operating rod, trigger group pieces and gas cylinder. It has a Barnett barrel which is far better than any service rifle barrel that was ever issued. VAR barrels are really good for a service rifle barrel and many of these rifles have VAR barrels. Shoot it first before dumping the barrel. My rifle functions fine. Shoots straight, what more can you want?





Italian parts have an excellent surface finish, equal to the best of post WW2 American Garand manufacturing. Italian parts are 100% interchangeable with US parts, which is remarkable in a number of different ways. I have not conducted a metallurgical evaluation nor hardness evaluation of Italian parts but I assume they are made of alloys equal to or better than what was used in American manufacture. If they were made of an alloy equal to 4340 than that would be a better steel than the 8620 used in American Mil Spec Garands and M14's. However 8620 is just fine, meets requirements which is basically finishing a 6,000 round endurance test without part breakage. I say this because there is a cult about "mil spec". Mil spec materials are good materials, basically chosen as a balance of cost, availability, familiarity, properties, and manufacturability. However steels with better properties were and are available it you are willing to spend more, or trade off some of the other characteristics.

PB or BMR parts are just fine.

[P5 Guy]

Winchester's WWII era rifles were some of the roughest guns made at the time. Excessive tooling marks, and needing help from the Springfield Arsenal in Massachusetts. (an entirely different entity from the folks using a similar name in Illinois) Breda and Beretta made rifles seem to be few and far between in the USA. These two Italian companies made M1s for contract during the Cold War. Now finding a BM59 would be the bomb. A converted M1 to use the BAR's twenty round magazines and in .30'06 or 7.62NATO.

[Orlando]

Some Springfield WWII parts were also rough. There was a war going on and they did not give attention to cosemetics as they did in Post War rifles

[P5 Guy]

I have two WWII era Springfield M1s from the CMP. Both had a couple of Winchester parts that I traded out for replacement SA parts and cash (to me). The SA parts were of the same era and much better finished the the equivalent Winchester part. Although I really liked the line of the curved WRA op-rod.

[BoogieMan]

I posted in wrong forum. But same question still applies.
How would the quality of build across garand manufacturers rank? And who made them?
1. Beretta
2. Springfield
3. Winchester

I have been looking for a reasonably priced International. But in all honesty I have no idea why other than I see them least among US manufacturers.

[Orlando]

No matter what anyone tells you one manufacture is no better than . Yes Post War rifles will be nicer cosemetically but they all fell with set standards