New to lead bullets in .44 Mag

[Real Gun]

I see bullets in .431 and wonder if that would work in a SW 629 Classic 5". It seems that .430 is the size most often referenced. The bullets are hard laser cast. I did see some mention in reviews of resizing them to .430 and one guy to .429. Why would I want to plan for that?

[PawPaw]

With cast bullets, fit is king. The first thing you have to do is make sure your bullet fits. It's a whole lot easier to size a bullet down than it is to size it larger. What's more important is the relationship of the cylinder mouth to the forcing cone. Ideally, the cylinder mouth will be a tiny bit larger than the groove diameter. When the cartridge is fired, the first thing the bullet traverses is the cylinder mouth. If the cylinder mouth is undersize, then the bullet is swaged as it passes through the cylinder and when it hits the forcing cone is undersized for the barrel. If the cylinder mouth is larger than bore diameter, the bullet is simply aligned with the forcing cone and swages as it enters the bore, making a tight seal.

Richard Lee, in his 2nd Edition, tells us that the pressure required to size a lead bullet is only a couple of hundred pounds, a tiny percentage of the pressure in a standard handgun round. You're not going to get into an overpressure situation when you let the forcing cone size the bullet. With a grossly oversized bullet, the problem will be chambering the cartridge. If the cartridge is too big to fit in the chamber, you should size the bullet and look for a solution to the problem.

If I'm using a gas check (and I don't, unless I plan to push a bullet over 1500 fps) I size the bullet 0.001 over groove diameter to let the bullet seal the bore as it runs down the barrel.

Bullet size and fit are complicated issues, and I've only touched lightly on them here. However, it's a great way to save money, and in my opinion, the .44 magnum is a cartridge that shines with cast bullets.

[Unclenick]

Learn to slug your bore and chamber throats and to measure them carefully with a micrometer and not a caliper, which typically doesn't have enough accuracy or resolution. Slugs through barrels with odd numbers of grooves, like your S&W, are more difficult to measure and require additional equipment, like a V-block and depth micrometer or else a lathe and indicator to measure groove impression height or else a set of gages with precision holes. Dardas cast bullets will measure them for you for free if you aren't equipped to do it.

For revolvers, many report sizing bullets to match your chamber throat diameters or not more than half a thousandth smaller than the throat diameter is the best approach for accuracy (and allows easier chambering at speed than an exact fit does). Ideally, though, you want those chambers over groove diameter. There is disagreement, but I think about 1.5 thousandths over groove diameter for commercial cast bullets sold as 1 thousandth over groove is best. However, I personally prefer chamber throats about 2.5 thousandths over groove diameter for cast bullets, and size the bullet 2 thousandths over groove. I've found that to produce the smallest groups.

Occasionally you get a revolver where the groove diameter is larger than the chamber throats, and that's a disaster for accuracy and it is common to get chambers reamed to SAAMI standard maximum diameter to correct that. It also is not uncommon to get a revolver with throats that aren't all exactly the same size, like they weren't all reamed with the same finishing reamer. The cure is the same as above.

Back in the 1980's I bought Ruger Redhawk. The store had three in stock, so I was able to make a comparison and pick the one with the best timing, the best alignment of the chambers with the bore, the most uniform barrel/cylinder gap, etc. With 240 grain jacketed soft point factory ammo, five chambers shoot under 0.7" at 50 yards off bags with a scope sight, while chamber 6 is always low and right, opening the group to 1⅝" at 50 yards. I could ream the chambers to get them all the same, but have been concerned I might upset the near perfection in the first five, so I've never done it. For target work, I just leave a plastic snap cap in the errant chamber and don't use it.

A friend of mine was so impressed with my gun, he bought an identical model (I wasn't there for the purchase, so I don't know what he could or couldn't check). It would not stay in 12" at 50 yards. I didn't have the opportunity to slug the chambers before my friend sent it to Ruger, but he sent a letter with it explaining how well mine shot (to show he wasn't a flincher complaining about a gun he couldn't control) by comparison. About 5 weeks later it came back with a note saying the shop had reamed the cylinder's chambers. The nice thing about having them do it was they refinished the cylinder in their bluing tanks so it matched the finish of the rest of the gun. We took it to the range, and while didn't shoot quite as tightly as mine, it did stay within about 2 inches at 50 yards, which was a huge improvement and more than satisfactory for the hunting he intended to do with it. So getting the chambers right is a big deal. It is probably the single most common first step taken in revolver accurizing.

[Mike / Tx]

When I pour my own now I size them to .430, and have had no issues with the size causing the problem. I however am running Ruger Redhawk's. My friend however is running a nice S&W and sizes his to the same. He keeps his loads in the 1000 - 1250 range at most.

That said, well before I started pouring my own, I acquired a quantity of Oregon Trial bullets. I have shot them from target type loads up through full blown magnums, and not had any issues with them so far. They have worked in every caliber from .357 though some pretty stout 454's.

Are they the best out there, not by a stretch. They are a bit higher than most in cost and a LOT harder than needed for even up to magnum loads. Will they work, yes, and most work great. IMO however you can find others that work just as well and will give you more options than they do.

All that said however, what PawPaw and Unclenick have posted will go far with loading lead bullets. For the most part however with your Smith, something in the 12-15BHN range sized to .430-.431 should work just fine. The trick is keeping an eye on the barrel while working up loads. If you note leading at the chamber end, it is a quick sign of fit or alloy not being proper in most cases. Leading showing up at the muzzle end, is usually due to lube.

With the fit/alloy issue the alloy is usually the culprit being either too hard or soft for the particular load. Usually a switch in powder can correct some or most of it. If your loading to top end loads the bullets could be skidding into the barrel which shows the early leading. If your loading a hard bullet soft, it will show similar issues as well. Like mentioned balancing the load to the bullet can usually clear most of this up. If it is a fit issue, sometimes a bit brisker powder will bump up the base and give you a good seal which helps to cull the leading. If however like mentioned your cylinder is smaller than your forcing cone, or the diameter of your bore, all bets are off. This is however historically been more of an issue with Ruger's than anything else other than some older 45 Colt's. Being these aren't what your going with, I would give just aout anything within the .430'ish range a try.

With the commercial lubes, some are simply not adequate for some loads. It is usually hard so that it stays put during shipping. It might work great at 1400fps but fail miserably at 1000. This is pretty easily fixed however if you like the particulr bullets. You can easily pick up a bottle of Alox and do a quick tumble lube which should do fine. I have run it from mundane 650fps 45 ACP loads up into the 1700fps range on some 454 loads so I know it will handle a broad range of pressures and velocities well.

Shooting lead is a fun and cost saving proposition in most cases. There are plenty of great commercial casters out there now driven to be so by demanding customers. Do a search for them and you will find plenty of recommendations. I will say that if I were going to be purchasing from one of them, knowing what I know now, I would look for one who pours a couple of different hardness within the same bullet design, possibly who offers a couple of sizing options as well.

I hope this helps some, but in the end, your not really going to know, even if you measure, how a particular bullet is going to preform until you put some down the pipe. All you can do is stack the odds in your favor and go for it.

[Rifleman1776]

I gave no thought to any of that advice. I loaded and shot many thousands of rounds of hard cast Keith style lead bullets in 180, 215 and 245 gr. weight. I just loaded, shot and won many compeitions.

[dahermit]

Since the days of crappy-only-kid-on-the-block days of Lyman dominating the cast lead bullet market, their published advice has always been, "...a cast lead bullet that is sized anywhere from groove diameter to .003 over is acceptable..." I mostly followed that advice except for .41 Magnums...I could never find a bullet sizing die listed for any size bigger than .410, which is the nominal groove diameter of .41 Mags. Nevertheless, .410 worked just fine.

[Real Gun]

Cursory checking of the gun gave me .428 outer throat. The forcing cone easily accepted a .430 bullet right to the cannelure. This was a Magtech 240 gr SJSP.

[Unclenick]

If you measured the throats with the inside jaws of a caliper, forget about it. Those can work OK between flats, but with small holes they typically come back with numbers a couple thousandths too small. You want either high precision plug gages (expensive in enough sizes to be useful) or to put pure lead slugs through the chambers for micrometer measuring. Short of that, use a small hole transfer gauge and micrometer.

[Real Gun]

Unclenick - If you measured the throats with the inside jaws of a caliper, forget about it. Those can work OK between flats, but with small holes they typically come back with numbers a couple thousandths too small.

I am not equipped to do any better, but based upon what you wrote, that would put the throats dead on .430.

addendum:

I took the expander insert out of my die set. It went in the throat from the outside and left about 1/16. I know it's conical, but my best measurement of that point's diameter was .431. I hear you about precision, but these are the best measurements I have for now.

[Mike / Tx]

Real Gun,

Your on the right track, but unless your going to shoot matches, you only need to be concerned with getting really close. If I were getting what you noted I would give some sized to .430" a try without hesitation. In fact that is pretty much what I did with my Redhawk. I figured that if they leaded up the barrel I could do one of two things, go to the next size up, or keep shooting the 240gr jacketed bullets I have sitting on the shelf.

I did the same thing almost with my RH in 45 Colt. I just loaded up some that were sized to .452 and went for it. So far so good. With the load(s) I am using, I can easily put a hundred or so rounds down the thing with no issues what so ever and most are running right at 1000fps. While not quite in the Ruger only category, they are pretty snappy for this caliber.

The other thing that would concern me the most would be the size of the area ahead of the forcing cone. If you shoot some in the 12-15 BHN range loaded to around 1000-1200fps and they lead up your barrel say 2" or so in front of the frame then I might have concern of that being the case. This hardness should easily handle those velocities and more with no real issues. Again sized to .430".

I have a couple of pic up here somewhere showing a couple of my revolver barrels and what leading should and shouldn't look like. Try here,Barrel Pics

The top and bottom pics are what normal shooting loads should or can look like with no issues on accuracy and what not. The one in the middle is NOT what you want to see even after 25 or so rounds. That one only had 4 rounds through it, and I knew it wasn't going to get better. Simply a case of driving a soft alloy (9 BHN) to hard. Bumping up the hardness to 11-12, and the barrel will look just like the others do.

At the worst you will get some leading which is pretty easily removed with a brush. If that isn't cutting it or you fill up the grooves, use the brush wrapped with a small piece of a copper Chore Boy scrub pad. Just make sure it's copper and not plated steel.

Still in all, even with all the recommendations, measuring, and what not, the loads you choose can and/or will also contribute to leading if you try and push things to hard. With lead it is somewhat of a balancing act. Some alloys and bullets will be like walking down a sidewalk, some a tight wire. Most however fall somewhere in between, and using powders like mentioned in the other post will give you a lot more flexibility verses the usual 296/110 type loads. Also and not mentioned before is Unique and a couple of other similar powders. IF your looking for mid ranged loads they can do a great job as well.

[Real Gun]

I just got in some .430 XTP 200 gr and used one for a makeshift plug gauge from the forward end of the cylinder (throat). It just covered the cannelure, which point measured .430 by calipers. So, I have (500) Oregon Trail .431 LSWC, 240 gr, hardness 18, silver alloy committed to an order. These are intended for a S&W 629 5" .44 Magnum.

I also bought (100) Hunters Supply Hard Cast .430 dia., 240 gr, for way more than the 500 pc price of the other, but that's what it's like these days, when wanting to move forward without waiting indefinitely for the perfect item to be available at a bragging rights price.

As far as velocity, initial loadings will be, shall we say, at an introductory level for a .44 Magnum. I am not a big man and, while I have shot major rounds in my .45 Colt Redhawk, I am apprehensive about this .44 caliber. I am prepared to load .44 Special too, but I wasn't planning to go that route as an intro. I want to shoot the magnum in some of those milder "versatility loads" that have been discussed.

[Real Gun]

For an initial lead supply, I ordered the Magic Alloy (Lyman 6-2) from Missouri Bullet, a packaging of 8 ingots, I believe. So, I won't actually be casting any bullets for awhile. I will test loads from the bullets I bought.

[iraiam]

This is how I do it;

Ruger RedHawk 44 magnum, mine measured right at .430"

240 grain SWC w/gas check; sized to .430, heavy to max load.

240 grain SWC no gc; sized to 431, (plinking ammo) I get some leading at .430 and no gas check.

[Real Gun]

The post office just called and said they have a package too heavy for the girls to lift. That means Missouri Bullet shipped my Lyman #2 ingots already. I'll go get them. That's the last of my casting equipment and supplies except the couple gas check molds I ordered for later use and the gas checks themselves, due momentarily. Adds a whole new dimension to reloading and shooting. Between shooting test loads and trial of bullet castings, I won't have a lot of other reasons to shoot for awhile.