Bullet Diameter

Spectre · December 7, 1999, 08:52 PM

Here's one that I have never quite figured out...Why are cast or swaged bullets usually .001 larger in diameter than their jacketed counterparts? What happens if you size a hard cast bullet down to jacketed diameters? I ask this because my .45 ACP seems to fire jacketed .451 bullets more accurately than the .452 cast bullets. Just wondering if there is any correlation to diameter....

alan · December 8, 1999, 12:49 AM

1. sizing a cast bullet "down" to jacketed diameter will, supposedly give you an inaccurate cast bullet.

2. no matter how "hard" the cast bullet, it's softer than a jacketed bullet of same caliber.

3. Lead bullets will upset, usually, to seal the bore, otherwise subject to gas cutting and corresponding problems (leading and lousy accuracy)

4. Coefficient of friction is different,
lubricated lead bullets move more easily, through the barrel than do jacketed types.

5. Re the accuracy comparison you mentioned, maybe yours does, every gun is different. you might take anothewr look at your lead bullet loads. Also, you didn't mention, what weight/shape lead or jacketed bullets.

alan · December 8, 1999, 12:55 AM

I have used, in a couple of 45 autos, the following load. APPROACH FROM BELOW, PROCEED CAREFULLY. In my pistols, it works fine, in another, it might be a bit hot.

5.2 grains red dot, 200 grain swc, "similar to H & G 68", hard cast from commercial alloy, 2% max tin, 6% antimony, the rest lead, all new metal, not range scrap. sized .452 dia. It's a ball equivalent, IPSC Major, runs a bit over 900 ft/sec.

Spectre · December 9, 1999, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the info and the load. I'll be sure to try it out!

Paul B. · December 9, 1999, 12:50 PM

Spectre. The ways of cast bullets are a mystery known only to wizards and trolls. I've been messing with cast bullets for over 40 years, and at times they throw me for a loop. For examle, I have one load that in one .45 ACP groups at 2 inches at 25 yards. Does it work in my other .45's. Hell no. 4 to 6 inches depending on the guns moods.
If you are casting your own, you can try heat treating them. If you are buying commercially cast bullets, you can only hope they are hard enough.
As to bullet size. I size as large as .002 over bore diameter, especially in rifles. If I size a 30 caliber to .308, serious leading and total inaccuracy occur. Go to .309, and things improve, but still get leading and not too good accuracy. At .310 leading is almost non-existant, and accuracy is acceptable. Heat treating helped a lot.
The only problem with commercially cast bullets, is if the sizing is not compatible with your gun, you are out of luck.

Alan. If you are casting your bullets from that alloy, try heat treating them. You'll make them even harder. I'd guess you have a BHN # around 16. Heat treating could raise it as high as 22 BHN, a subtantial improvement on hardness.
BTW. I size my .45 bullets to .452 as well.
Paul B.

Spectre · December 10, 1999, 10:59 AM

Paul, since I am neither a wizard nor troll, i will defer to your years of expierence and not size the cast bullets down to .451. I just got a batch of Impact's a few days ago and will see if they do any better than other manufacture's. If not I may have to start casting my own and oversize as you suggest. Lee seems to have some reasonably priced equipment that could get me started...

Paul B. · December 12, 1999, 09:56 PM

Spectre. If your bullets are sized properly, they should shoot OK. The Lee stuff for casting is not too bad. I have the Lee Production pot, which is not too bad for a beginner. Their molds cast good bullets, but are a bit fragile. If you want the equivilant to a hardball load, RCBS' 45-230 round nose is a good one. It's a 2 cavity and in my experience, RCBS mold break in a bit faster than other iron molds. If you want a 6 cavity mold, I think Lee has one, but I know nothing about them. Invest in a proper luber-sizer. Both Lyman and RCBS make them, and the nice part is the dies for either will fit in the other.
Try and scrounge up a bunch of old wheel weights, melt them down and clean the clips and dirt and crap from your metal. With about 10 pounds of cleaned wheel weight in you pot, add about 1/2 of a bar of 50-50 solder. This will give you enough tin in your melt to make it cast well.
That's enough confusion for now. When you are ready to go, get a copy of the LYMAN CAST BULLET RELOADING MANUAL. That'll give you a good base to make reasonably intelligent decisions. If you get too confused, you can always E-mail me with your questions, and then we can both be confused. What the heck.
Paul B.

Spectre · December 16, 1999, 12:36 AM

Thanks again, Paul. If I start casting (maybe after the first of the new year)I'll be sure to take you up on your offer!

alan · December 17, 1999, 12:08 AM

Paul B:

While I shoot and reload, I do not cast bullets. That ios one vale of tears I choose not to enter.

The alloy percentages I mentioned are from the guy who casts them.He buys commercial alloy, made up especially for bullet casting.

Using his bullets, in my pistols, a couple of government models, one a Kimber, the other a 70 series Colt, I get no noticeable leading, likely as much accuracy than my abilities can coax from a pistol.

alan · December 17, 1999, 12:10 AM

sspectre

let me know how the load works out, but remember, WORK UP FROM BELOW. also, I would suggest that you NOT EXCEED.

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December 7, 1999, 08:52 PM	#1
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Here's one that I have never quite figured out...Why are cast or swaged bullets usually .001 larger in diameter than their jacketed counterparts? What happens if you size a hard cast bullet down to jacketed diameters? I ask this because my .45 ACP seems to fire jacketed .451 bullets more accurately than the .452 cast bullets. Just wondering if there is any correlation to diameter....

December 8, 1999, 12:49 AM	#2
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	1. sizing a cast bullet "down" to jacketed diameter will, supposedly give you an inaccurate cast bullet. 2. no matter how "hard" the cast bullet, it's softer than a jacketed bullet of same caliber. 3. Lead bullets will upset, usually, to seal the bore, otherwise subject to gas cutting and corresponding problems (leading and lousy accuracy) 4. Coefficient of friction is different, lubricated lead bullets move more easily, through the barrel than do jacketed types. 5. Re the accuracy comparison you mentioned, maybe yours does, every gun is different. you might take anothewr look at your lead bullet loads. Also, you didn't mention, what weight/shape lead or jacketed bullets.

December 8, 1999, 12:55 AM	#3
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	I have used, in a couple of 45 autos, the following load. APPROACH FROM BELOW, PROCEED CAREFULLY. In my pistols, it works fine, in another, it might be a bit hot. 5.2 grains red dot, 200 grain swc, "similar to H & G 68", hard cast from commercial alloy, 2% max tin, 6% antimony, the rest lead, all new metal, not range scrap. sized .452 dia. It's a ball equivalent, IPSC Major, runs a bit over 900 ft/sec.

December 9, 1999, 12:25 AM	#4
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Thanks for the info and the load. I'll be sure to try it out!

December 9, 1999, 12:50 PM	#5
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,800	Spectre. The ways of cast bullets are a mystery known only to wizards and trolls. I've been messing with cast bullets for over 40 years, and at times they throw me for a loop. For examle, I have one load that in one .45 ACP groups at 2 inches at 25 yards. Does it work in my other .45's. Hell no. 4 to 6 inches depending on the guns moods. If you are casting your own, you can try heat treating them. If you are buying commercially cast bullets, you can only hope they are hard enough. As to bullet size. I size as large as .002 over bore diameter, especially in rifles. If I size a 30 caliber to .308, serious leading and total inaccuracy occur. Go to .309, and things improve, but still get leading and not too good accuracy. At .310 leading is almost non-existant, and accuracy is acceptable. Heat treating helped a lot. The only problem with commercially cast bullets, is if the sizing is not compatible with your gun, you are out of luck. Alan. If you are casting your bullets from that alloy, try heat treating them. You'll make them even harder. I'd guess you have a BHN # around 16. Heat treating could raise it as high as 22 BHN, a subtantial improvement on hardness. BTW. I size my .45 bullets to .452 as well. Paul B.

December 10, 1999, 10:59 AM	#6
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Paul, since I am neither a wizard nor troll, i will defer to your years of expierence and not size the cast bullets down to .451. I just got a batch of Impact's a few days ago and will see if they do any better than other manufacture's. If not I may have to start casting my own and oversize as you suggest. Lee seems to have some reasonably priced equipment that could get me started...

December 12, 1999, 09:56 PM	#7
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,800	Spectre. If your bullets are sized properly, they should shoot OK. The Lee stuff for casting is not too bad. I have the Lee Production pot, which is not too bad for a beginner. Their molds cast good bullets, but are a bit fragile. If you want the equivilant to a hardball load, RCBS' 45-230 round nose is a good one. It's a 2 cavity and in my experience, RCBS mold break in a bit faster than other iron molds. If you want a 6 cavity mold, I think Lee has one, but I know nothing about them. Invest in a proper luber-sizer. Both Lyman and RCBS make them, and the nice part is the dies for either will fit in the other. Try and scrounge up a bunch of old wheel weights, melt them down and clean the clips and dirt and crap from your metal. With about 10 pounds of cleaned wheel weight in you pot, add about 1/2 of a bar of 50-50 solder. This will give you enough tin in your melt to make it cast well. That's enough confusion for now. When you are ready to go, get a copy of the LYMAN CAST BULLET RELOADING MANUAL. That'll give you a good base to make reasonably intelligent decisions. If you get too confused, you can always E-mail me with your questions, and then we can both be confused. What the heck. Paul B.

December 16, 1999, 12:36 AM	#8
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Thanks again, Paul. If I start casting (maybe after the first of the new year)I'll be sure to take you up on your offer!

December 17, 1999, 12:08 AM	#9
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Paul B: While I shoot and reload, I do not cast bullets. That ios one vale of tears I choose not to enter. The alloy percentages I mentioned are from the guy who casts them.He buys commercial alloy, made up especially for bullet casting. Using his bullets, in my pistols, a couple of government models, one a Kimber, the other a 70 series Colt, I get no noticeable leading, likely as much accuracy than my abilities can coax from a pistol.

December 17, 1999, 12:10 AM	#10
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	sspectre let me know how the load works out, but remember, WORK UP FROM BELOW. also, I would suggest that you NOT EXCEED.