HK Fabarm shotgun for clays and phesant hunting--pros and cons---

DAKODAKID · April 23, 2001, 06:01 PM

I am an avid HK collector and I am interested in getting a shotgun for trap-skeet and bird hunting etc.
Are the HK/Fabarm shotguns worth the money???
I grew up shooting shotguns (bird hunting) and would like to get back into it, It has been many years since I have been hunting (or shot a shotgun for that matter).
I would like to add an HK shotgun to my collection,
are they hype or the real deal???
thanks for all your help.

AUTiger73 · April 24, 2001, 09:03 AM

Note my thread from 04/10/2001 on this subject.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=63226

I did a search and found Fabarm website which provided additional information about their O/U shotguns, but many of those models shown are not imported. Fabarm O/U shotguns are very impressive, offering many standard features that would be optional on other shotguns.

However, it should be understood that a Fabarm is NOT an HK. HK is just the importer, and as we've seen with other foreign brands (i.e., Franchi) the importers do change.

As you've probably noticed CDNN Investments advertisement in Shotgun News has some deeply discounted wholesale pricing on Fabarms, making them very tempting. However, the reason for these deep discounts is buyer reluctance to purchase a relatively unknown and unproven (at least in this country) product. Furthermore, there is the issue of long term customer service and repair support.

At the conclusion of the forementioned thread I reached the decision to go with either a Browning or Beretta. Beyond that, I may look at a Winchester Supreme O/U, which I suspect may be produced by the same Japanese contractor as the Browning Citori.

But, Fabarms with all those nice feactures are tempting.
Best of luck with your decision.

[Edited by AUTiger73 on 04-24-2001 at 06:00 PM]

DAKODAKID · April 25, 2001, 07:43 PM

Thanks Tiger,
What did you finally get???
Is the O/U the best way to go or are the semi-autos as durable???
I realize that Fabarms are not actual HK's but they must have some merit or else HK would not be associated with them.
I have a chance to buy a Gold Lion semi-auto for $700.00 out the door with case, chokes, etc, NIB.
Is this a good price??
This board should be re-named the 870 board.
Is the HK/Fabarm shotgun "all hat and no cowboy"???
Thanks for any light you may have to shed.

AUTiger73 · April 26, 2001, 08:59 AM

Dakodakid: Still haven't decided yet and I'm trying to recover from spending $ 650 last month on a Winchester Model 92. I expect to move on the O/U purchase by mid-May.

Just to add to my confusion I received catalogs from Benelli yesterday. Their Franchi O/U is a beautiful piece of workmanship.

The Fabarm O/U is equally beautiful and probably a great shotgun. However, long term customer service is a concern as these companies(importers) are constantly associating and dis-associating themselves with various manufacturers. Since I plan on shooting-the-hell-out-of a O/U in sporting clays comp, I really need some dependable customer service. In other words, I will more likely need dependable parts and repair support due to higher usage rate of competition.

Currently, to my way of thinking, Browning is in 1st place, followed by Beretta, and Winchester in that order. My local dealer has a beautiful Browning Citoria O/U - 20 gauge in his rack, cost-price-new is $ 1,200. Will likely have him order 12 gauge - 30" barrel version of this gun. My budget is generally $ 1,500 for a "entry-level" sporting clays gun.

Your price on that Gold Lion semi-auto seems fair. While your looking at semi-autos, I note both Benelli and Franchi have some attractive pricing on theirs. Shotgunners more knowledgeable than me say that the Beretta 390 line of semi-autos is the best.

So many guns, so little time and money!

Bam Bam · April 26, 2001, 04:45 PM

Because Beretta introduced the 391 some dealers are pricing the 390 to sell. Look for a deal on one. Good luck.

K80Geoff · April 26, 2001, 05:32 PM

I seem to recall seing an ad for the HK O/U in one of the mags. I believe it is made in Italy by B Rizzini. There are a lot of guns made in Italy by smaller makers that are of good to excellent quality. The problem is that if you need service you may find that it does not exist.

Often major manufacturers like H & K will import guns from smaller makers to attempt to enter a market they do not currently have offerings in. Often the relationship does not last very long and people who need service on their guns are told that the importer no longer handles their gun. This has happened often with O/U's.

There are several makers of guns , mostly from Italy , who produce quality guns but have not been able to put a dent in the Browning/Beretta monopoly. Both B & B actively market their guns to clays shooters and parts are plentiful, with many gunsmiths having parts before the US importer gets them! Makers like Marocchi, Renato Gamba, and the several Rizzinis fall into this category. The Spanish made Kemen and the German Merkel and Rottweil makes also are having a hard time selling there wares in the US. All are quality guns.

You may be able to get a real bargain in a quality O/U from one of these makers as they try to establish themselves and gain a reputation.

Case in point, a buddy purchased a grade 2 Marocchi O/U for sporting clays. The gun was impressive and he shot it well. One day the gun blew up! Probably because the shells he was using were defective. Now B & B would have told him that he was out of luck, it wasn't the guns fault. They would probably have been correct and not liable as the shooter was using reloads. Marocchi loaned him a replacement and ordered a higher grade gun from Italy for him as a replacement for the destroyed gun. This is a class act in my book. He now has a grade 3 gun and loves it .

The moral of this story is that many smaller makers will treat you very well, and they have great guns. Don't assume that if it isn't a B & B gun that it is junk.

If you handle the H&K and it feels good, buy it and shoot it. It is probably a good entry level O/U

More drivel from me

Geoff Ross

AUTiger73 · April 27, 2001, 09:30 AM

Don't know about Fabarm's relationship to B. Rizzini. Checking out their website they describe themselves as follows:

"FABARM Fabbrica Bresciana Armi is the direct descendant of one of the greates gunsmithing dynasties in Brescia, Italy -the Galesi family. Beginning with classic over & under and side-by-side models, FABARM has also evolved and perfected more contemporary designs of shotguns, in fact the company's pump action, semi-automatic guns are some of the best selling arms in Europe and USA. - ..." *

"Today the FABARM plant of Travagliato (Brescia) Italy, has a covered area of 110,000 square feet."

http://www.fabarm.com/

* best selling arms in Europe and USA ??? Maybe so in Europe but I doubt that statement applies to the USA.

Interesting website no doubt, but keep in mind that many of the guns shown on their website are not imported to the USA. Their O/U and side-by-side doubles are absolutely beautiful, and come loaded with features normally considered optional on other guns.

Yes, customer service support is extremely important, especially for a gun used in competition. That is why I'm still inclined toward a Browning Citoria or Beretta 686. But, I'm still wondering about the Winchester Supreme O/U as it looks like the Browning Citoria. Wonder if they are both built by the same Japanese contractor.

gitarmac · April 27, 2001, 04:05 PM

I got the fabarm red lion because I needed a semi-auto and the price seemed right. I wish I would have waited and gotten something else. It only holds 3 shells, was a jamomatic till I did some dremel polishing, and some of the pins keep coming out, not all the way thank goodness cause I'd never be able to get them back in.

On the plus side, it is very light (much of the gun is made of plastic), and came with 4 chokes and a nice case. It is also easy to disasemble.

Still, I wish I would have gone with something else. I've heard better things about the higher line ones, the red lion is a bottom feeder.

AUTiger73 · April 27, 2001, 04:47 PM

gitarmac: It occurred to me earlier that one would not want to buy a semi-auto in a relatively unknown brand, especially since long term customer service of that product is uncertain. You just validated that thought.

Over my 40+ years of buying and selling guns I learned many lessons the hard way. Sometimes it is best to just cut your losses and send the unwanted piece down the street, and THEN pay the price and get what you should have purchased. If it is true that we learn from our mistakes, I should be a wise old fart by now.

Also, those FABARM O/U shotguns are beautiful BUT they are untested in competitive shooting and HK will dump them if they don't sell.

Again, based on numerous recommendations, if you are in the market for a semi-auto shotgun, the Beretta Model 390 or Model 391 would be first choice. In the O/U shotguns Browning is still king.

K80Geoff · April 28, 2001, 10:45 PM

Au tiger...I was incorrect about the maker of the FABARM guns. It appears I confused the new Sig Arms O/U, whis IS made by B Rizzini, with the H & K offering , which is made by a company called FABARM.

OH well! H & K Sig, all those German companies are confusing me, where is my medication!

FABARM supposedly has been in business for over 100 years, building guns for the europeans (makes sense, they ARE in europe

) They are probably well made guns, most of those Spaghetti guns are. If H & K drops them someone else will bring them in so I wouldn't worry too much about having an orphan.

They all look like nice guns, similiar to Beretta's offerings.

Geoff Ross

K80Geoff · July 5, 2001, 01:49 PM

Recently came across this thread on Fabarm Shotguns on another site.

http://www.shotgunsports.com/cgi-bin...437&startnum=1

It contains some interesting feedback on the Fabarm line now imported by H & K. Looks like the H & K people are trying to market their guns like Beretta and Browning do. They are starting to provide "Name" shooters on the Sporting Clays circuit with guns. Both Diane and Marissa are welkl known in the Sporting Clays circuit. This is a good indication that the guns will be around awhile and that the importer will service them.

The guns have their detractors and supporters it seems!

Geoff Ross

Kernel · July 5, 2001, 05:24 PM

For upland hunting if you're looking for HK import I'd recommend a used Benelli Montefeltro 20ga. Extremely high quality, robust & reliable, handles like a dream, and light as a feather. It's the lightest semiauto I know of, conventional wisdom says it's to light to be a "competitive" trap/skeet gun but it sure feels nice after a long day walking the CRP. -- Kernel

Gary H · July 5, 2001, 07:31 PM

It appears that the detractor in the previous URL was a troll with the ability to generate Email addresses at will. From the level of comment, I would guess that the person was in the early teens.

I can't seem to get my Fabarm 20 Gauge Clay Competition out of my FFL's safe due to a problem with their license, but after handling one in the shop and comparing to other guns, the balance, fit and finish seemed first rate. Also, a great many features for the money. I, for one, like the lifetime warranty. Would be nice if I could get it out of the safe.

April 23, 2001, 06:01 PM	#1
DAKODAKID Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2000 Posts: 436	I am an avid HK collector and I am interested in getting a shotgun for trap-skeet and bird hunting etc. Are the HK/Fabarm shotguns worth the money??? I grew up shooting shotguns (bird hunting) and would like to get back into it, It has been many years since I have been hunting (or shot a shotgun for that matter). I would like to add an HK shotgun to my collection, are they hype or the real deal??? thanks for all your help. __________________ ACCOUNT FOR EVERY SHOT AND MAKE EVERY SHOT COUNT

April 24, 2001, 09:03 AM	#2
AUTiger73 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Posts: 375	HK Fabarm Note my thread from 04/10/2001 on this subject. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=63226 I did a search and found Fabarm website which provided additional information about their O/U shotguns, but many of those models shown are not imported. Fabarm O/U shotguns are very impressive, offering many standard features that would be optional on other shotguns. However, it should be understood that a Fabarm is NOT an HK. HK is just the importer, and as we've seen with other foreign brands (i.e., Franchi) the importers do change. As you've probably noticed CDNN Investments advertisement in Shotgun News has some deeply discounted wholesale pricing on Fabarms, making them very tempting. However, the reason for these deep discounts is buyer reluctance to purchase a relatively unknown and unproven (at least in this country) product. Furthermore, there is the issue of long term customer service and repair support. At the conclusion of the forementioned thread I reached the decision to go with either a Browning or Beretta. Beyond that, I may look at a Winchester Supreme O/U, which I suspect may be produced by the same Japanese contractor as the Browning Citori. But, Fabarms with all those nice feactures are tempting. Best of luck with your decision. [Edited by AUTiger73 on 04-24-2001 at 06:00 PM]

April 25, 2001, 07:43 PM	#3
DAKODAKID Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2000 Posts: 436	Thanks Tiger, What did you finally get??? Is the O/U the best way to go or are the semi-autos as durable??? I realize that Fabarms are not actual HK's but they must have some merit or else HK would not be associated with them. I have a chance to buy a Gold Lion semi-auto for $700.00 out the door with case, chokes, etc, NIB. Is this a good price?? This board should be re-named the 870 board. Is the HK/Fabarm shotgun "all hat and no cowboy"??? Thanks for any light you may have to shed. __________________ ACCOUNT FOR EVERY SHOT AND MAKE EVERY SHOT COUNT

April 26, 2001, 05:32 PM	#6
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	Thoughts on O/Us I seem to recall seing an ad for the HK O/U in one of the mags. I believe it is made in Italy by B Rizzini. There are a lot of guns made in Italy by smaller makers that are of good to excellent quality. The problem is that if you need service you may find that it does not exist. Often major manufacturers like H & K will import guns from smaller makers to attempt to enter a market they do not currently have offerings in. Often the relationship does not last very long and people who need service on their guns are told that the importer no longer handles their gun. This has happened often with O/U's. There are several makers of guns , mostly from Italy , who produce quality guns but have not been able to put a dent in the Browning/Beretta monopoly. Both B & B actively market their guns to clays shooters and parts are plentiful, with many gunsmiths having parts before the US importer gets them! Makers like Marocchi, Renato Gamba, and the several Rizzinis fall into this category. The Spanish made Kemen and the German Merkel and Rottweil makes also are having a hard time selling there wares in the US. All are quality guns. You may be able to get a real bargain in a quality O/U from one of these makers as they try to establish themselves and gain a reputation. Case in point, a buddy purchased a grade 2 Marocchi O/U for sporting clays. The gun was impressive and he shot it well. One day the gun blew up! Probably because the shells he was using were defective. Now B & B would have told him that he was out of luck, it wasn't the guns fault. They would probably have been correct and not liable as the shooter was using reloads. Marocchi loaned him a replacement and ordered a higher grade gun from Italy for him as a replacement for the destroyed gun. This is a class act in my book. He now has a grade 3 gun and loves it . The moral of this story is that many smaller makers will treat you very well, and they have great guns. Don't assume that if it isn't a B & B gun that it is junk. If you handle the H&K and it feels good, buy it and shoot it. It is probably a good entry level O/U More drivel from me Geoff Ross __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!

April 27, 2001, 04:05 PM	#8
gitarmac Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Posts: 358	I have a red lion I got the fabarm red lion because I needed a semi-auto and the price seemed right. I wish I would have waited and gotten something else. It only holds 3 shells, was a jamomatic till I did some dremel polishing, and some of the pins keep coming out, not all the way thank goodness cause I'd never be able to get them back in. On the plus side, it is very light (much of the gun is made of plastic), and came with 4 chokes and a nice case. It is also easy to disasemble. Still, I wish I would have gone with something else. I've heard better things about the higher line ones, the red lion is a bottom feeder.

April 26, 2001, 08:59 AM	#4
AUTiger73 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Posts: 375	Dakodakid: Still haven't decided yet and I'm trying to recover from spending $ 650 last month on a Winchester Model 92. I expect to move on the O/U purchase by mid-May. Just to add to my confusion I received catalogs from Benelli yesterday. Their Franchi O/U is a beautiful piece of workmanship. The Fabarm O/U is equally beautiful and probably a great shotgun. However, long term customer service is a concern as these companies(importers) are constantly associating and dis-associating themselves with various manufacturers. Since I plan on shooting-the-hell-out-of a O/U in sporting clays comp, I really need some dependable customer service. In other words, I will more likely need dependable parts and repair support due to higher usage rate of competition. Currently, to my way of thinking, Browning is in 1st place, followed by Beretta, and Winchester in that order. My local dealer has a beautiful Browning Citoria O/U - 20 gauge in his rack, cost-price-new is $ 1,200. Will likely have him order 12 gauge - 30" barrel version of this gun. My budget is generally $ 1,500 for a "entry-level" sporting clays gun. Your price on that Gold Lion semi-auto seems fair. While your looking at semi-autos, I note both Benelli and Franchi have some attractive pricing on theirs. Shotgunners more knowledgeable than me say that the Beretta 390 line of semi-autos is the best. So many guns, so little time and money!

April 26, 2001, 04:45 PM	#5
Bam Bam Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 842	Because Beretta introduced the 391 some dealers are pricing the 390 to sell. Look for a deal on one. Good luck.

April 27, 2001, 09:30 AM	#7
AUTiger73 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Posts: 375	Don't know about Fabarm's relationship to B. Rizzini. Checking out their website they describe themselves as follows: "FABARM Fabbrica Bresciana Armi is the direct descendant of one of the greates gunsmithing dynasties in Brescia, Italy -the Galesi family. Beginning with classic over & under and side-by-side models, FABARM has also evolved and perfected more contemporary designs of shotguns, in fact the company's pump action, semi-automatic guns are some of the best selling arms in Europe and USA. - ..." * "Today the FABARM plant of Travagliato (Brescia) Italy, has a covered area of 110,000 square feet." http://www.fabarm.com/ * best selling arms in Europe and USA ??? Maybe so in Europe but I doubt that statement applies to the USA. Interesting website no doubt, but keep in mind that many of the guns shown on their website are not imported to the USA. Their O/U and side-by-side doubles are absolutely beautiful, and come loaded with features normally considered optional on other guns. Yes, customer service support is extremely important, especially for a gun used in competition. That is why I'm still inclined toward a Browning Citoria or Beretta 686. But, I'm still wondering about the Winchester Supreme O/U as it looks like the Browning Citoria. Wonder if they are both built by the same Japanese contractor.

April 27, 2001, 04:47 PM	#9
AUTiger73 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Posts: 375	gitarmac: It occurred to me earlier that one would not want to buy a semi-auto in a relatively unknown brand, especially since long term customer service of that product is uncertain. You just validated that thought. Over my 40+ years of buying and selling guns I learned many lessons the hard way. Sometimes it is best to just cut your losses and send the unwanted piece down the street, and THEN pay the price and get what you should have purchased. If it is true that we learn from our mistakes, I should be a wise old fart by now. Also, those FABARM O/U shotguns are beautiful BUT they are untested in competitive shooting and HK will dump them if they don't sell. Again, based on numerous recommendations, if you are in the market for a semi-auto shotgun, the Beretta Model 390 or Model 391 would be first choice. In the O/U shotguns Browning is still king.

April 28, 2001, 10:45 PM	#10
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	OOps... Au tiger...I was incorrect about the maker of the FABARM guns. It appears I confused the new Sig Arms O/U, whis IS made by B Rizzini, with the H & K offering , which is made by a company called FABARM. OH well! H & K Sig, all those German companies are confusing me, where is my medication! FABARM supposedly has been in business for over 100 years, building guns for the europeans (makes sense, they ARE in europe) They are probably well made guns, most of those Spaghetti guns are. If H & K drops them someone else will bring them in so I wouldn't worry too much about having an orphan. They all look like nice guns, similiar to Beretta's offerings. Geoff Ross __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!

July 5, 2001, 01:49 PM	#11
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	I know this is an old post but... Recently came across this thread on Fabarm Shotguns on another site. http://www.shotgunsports.com/cgi-bin...437&startnum=1 It contains some interesting feedback on the Fabarm line now imported by H & K. Looks like the H & K people are trying to market their guns like Beretta and Browning do. They are starting to provide "Name" shooters on the Sporting Clays circuit with guns. Both Diane and Marissa are welkl known in the Sporting Clays circuit. This is a good indication that the guns will be around awhile and that the importer will service them. The guns have their detractors and supporters it seems! Geoff Ross __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!

July 5, 2001, 05:24 PM	#12
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	For upland hunting if you're looking for HK import I'd recommend a used Benelli Montefeltro 20ga. Extremely high quality, robust & reliable, handles like a dream, and light as a feather. It's the lightest semiauto I know of, conventional wisdom says it's to light to be a "competitive" trap/skeet gun but it sure feels nice after a long day walking the CRP. -- Kernel

July 5, 2001, 07:31 PM	#13
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	It appears that the detractor in the previous URL was a troll with the ability to generate Email addresses at will. From the level of comment, I would guess that the person was in the early teens. I can't seem to get my Fabarm 20 Gauge Clay Competition out of my FFL's safe due to a problem with their license, but after handling one in the shop and comparing to other guns, the balance, fit and finish seemed first rate. Also, a great many features for the money. I, for one, like the lifetime warranty. Would be nice if I could get it out of the safe.