Help with info on old blackpowder rifle?

[bayouhunters]

We were just handed down this old gun. It belonged to my husband's step grandfather. He was born in 1904 and has already passed on, so the history of the gun is unknown other than it was in his family and they were from Louisiana. The gun is 36 inches long and has engravings on the metal and cravings on the wood including a face (see pictures for details) and has sometype of craved plastic on it. The ramrod that is with it appears to be wood. We can not find any markings on the gun at all to show age or maker. Can anyone possible give me some ideas about this gun or where to possibly find out more information on it? I'm looking for any possible clues. Thank you!

[bayouhunters]

Here are some more pictures of the gun. It has a metal buttplate and the wood is carved so that it is raised on one side.

[Rifleman1776]

Definitely a unique old piece.
It looks like a Schutzen or Jaeger target rifle of European origin.
That 'backwards' lock set up is different and the lock is almost certainly a conversion from flint.
I would look for a muzzle loading specific forum and post the pictures there. I can reccomend one if you ask in a PM.
Impossible to even begin guessing at a value but more than just a little for sure.

[Hawg]

IMHO it was never a flinter. There's no extra holes in the lock plate. There may be proof marks on the underside of the barrel that would determine country
of origin.

[zullo74]

There may not be extra holes in the lock plate, but that doesn't preclude that the entire lock was changed and then restocked.

[Hawg]

While that's true there's wood between the top of the lock and the bottom of the snail. If it had been a flinter that wood wouldn't be there.

[bayouhunters]

Thanks for the responses. This gives me something to go on and its more than we had to start with.

[4V50 Gary]

Schutzen rifle. The hole in the tang was for either a rear aperture or a rear peep sight. Schtuzen rifles were very popular among the Germans from 1850-1870.

[arcticap]

You may receive some more information here, but it wouldn't hurt to also post it on the American Longrifles forum under Antique Gun Collecting.

You will need to upload the photos to a photo hosting website besides thefiringline (this one).

Imageshack doesn't require registration to upload photos although one must register to obtain the direct link URL.

American Longrifles forum:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php

Image Shack photo hosting:

http://imageshack.us/

[4V50 Gary]

Don't forget to include an overall view of the gun.

I suspect there may be a palm rest for it too. Any accoutrements?

[bayouhunters]

Thanks for the additional info. Attached are pics of the whole gun from both sides and one of the only additional items that came with the gun including the strap. There was nothing else with it.

Is it called anything specific or referred to in any specific way when the hammer is backwards like this? I've never seen this before.

Also someone told one of our relatives that this gun was probably put together a long time ago by a gunsmith from several different gun parts so he said it was impossible to tell who made it or how old it was and that it had no real value. Although it may not have any "real" value, it has value to us just bacause it has been in the family for years, so we were also wondering if any of you beleive that any of his statements were true.

[4V50 Gary]

Left handed lock probably salvaged from a double gun for right handed purposes. That short barrel shocked me. It's not a schutzen gun but must be some sort of cobbled together jager. However, most jagers are full stocked, which this clearly isn't. I wonder if it's a poacher's gun?

[arcticap]

Maybe the person had a handicap or injury that led him to have it custom made in that configuration.
The shorter and lighter barrel would also be easier for someone to hold who had a physical weakness or handicap of some sort. There's many types of afflications that can be envisioned that a gun of this type would make it possible or at least much easier for them to cock, hold and fire it.
Perhaps they had to learn how to fire a gun with their weak side for some reason, and/or couldn't cock the hammer conventionally like everyone else.

[bayouhunters]

You asked if it was a poacher's gun and from what I have been told, most poacher's guns were not as detailed as this one is. There are several very detailed carvings as well as the detailed scroll work and the "plastic" or whatever that is scroll work on it as well. This is why we beleived it wasn't a poacher's gun, but we can't be sure.

Also the entire gun is only 36 inches long. The barrel is basically octagon shaped but has slight differences in the middle than at the beginning and end. Also it is still a heavy gun, the barrel seems to be very thick.

Thanks again for all the information you all, I really do appreciate your insight.

[Rifleman1776]

Definitely more Jaeger-ish than Schutezen.
Definitely a hunter. Why so short is a history mystery.
Europeans hunt from stands almost exculsively, the short gun would be easier to handle. Just a guess.

[Hawg]

My guess is it was originally a target rifle that was later cut down.

[bedbugbilly]

It has the lines and style that is Germanic. While the barrel might have been cut down from the appearance of it, it may also have been made that way. Not unlike the shorter barreled Jaeger rifles of the flint period. The shorter barrel may have been because it was used on a coach.

Left handed locks utilized in this manner is not all that uncommon. Through the years, I've seen a number of guns made in this manner - both antique and custom built. I remember seeing a nice saw handle target pistol made this way many years ago at Friendship.

I would be interested in knowing the caliber of it.

I've owned several S X S German shotguns with much the same styling. I traded the last one off to a very knowledgeable collector/dealer who specialized in ML shotguns. In looking it over, he explained that the shotgun I had was an "apprentice gun" and he was even able to identify the shop it came from in spite of it being unmarked with the exception of proofs on the barrel. It really was a beautiful piece with intricate carving and engraving but it had steel furniture instead of brass or german silver.

It's basically supposition on the part of all of us. You really need to find out just exactly what it is by talking with someone who is knowledgeable on German style arms. As suggested, post it on the links that were given and you should run across someone who can tell you exactly what it is.

You also have to remembeer that there were a lot of "G.I. bringbacks" from Germany after the war. In the mid 1960s, a mutual friend put me together with another collector who wanted to show me his prize rifle. I had to put cotton gloves on before he would let me handle it. It was a muzzleloading German rifle - highly engraved, carved and with gold and silver inlays that he had acquired for his collection. It was a GI bringback - his story was that 5 GIs brought back parts of it and it was reassembled in this country after the war. it was truly a work of art and at that time, 1960s, he told me that he had it insured for $25,000.00 and I have no doubt he did.

I'm not saying that your rifle is in that category, but, a lot of historical firearms were "liberated" during the war and found their way to our shores. It's worth checking out the history of the piece from your family and the firearm itself. I hope you keep it in your family and enjoy it.

[Hawg]

Judging from the powder measure hanging from the front sling swivel if indeed that's what it is. It would appear to be a small caliber, maybe a .32