1851 loading questions

bigminnow · August 12, 2011, 10:54 PM

I'm new to black powder shooting but after seeing my uncle's 1851 revolver, I'm hooked.

I bought two 1851 Pietta Navy and I've searched and read some loading instructions and need some input.

In the instructions that came with the revolvers, there were two different ways mentioned...one in Pietta's instructions, one in the importer's instructions.
1) Powder, wad or patch, ball
2) Powder, ball
Is one better than the other and what are the advantages/disadvantages of each?
I have also looked at products like Ox-Yoke and generic dry lube patches (Cabela's...)
Last, the instructions said use between 13 - 15 grain powder. That seems pretty light. Also said to use a .454 ball. In my uncle's gun we've been using a .451 ball and 20 -25 gr powder. BTW, all these guns are brass frame.

Help...I want to go shooting on Saturday...
Thanks...

smokepole14 · August 12, 2011, 11:16 PM

The wad is really a personal preferance so its all up to you. The purpose of a wad is to keep from getting a chain fire(more than one chamber going off) and to help keep the fouling down. Some shooters don't use the wad but instead use crisco or bore butter on top of the ball once it is seated, but be aware in hot weather it can get pretty messy. If you use any type of lube on the chambers stay away from anything with petrolem in it. You'll end up with a lot of tar in your barrel and a bad day when it comes cleaning time. Wonder wads can be bought fairly cheap pre lubed or you can punch them out of wool yourself with a punch. Personally myself I use the wads that are prelubed and have had no chainfires. Just make sure your balls leave a lead shaved ring when they are seated to ensure tight fitting. Another thing most chainfires come from loose fitting caps, so make sure your caps have a good fit to the nipple. Since you are shooting a brass frame I wouldnt go over 25 grains that would be a maximum load. Brass is a softer metal than steel so over time it will stretch. So just keep it under 25gr, tight fitting caps and balls, and whether or not if you choose a wad and have FUN!!!!

OutlawJoseyWales · August 12, 2011, 11:30 PM

Bigminnow,
look for the information that's pinned in the Sticky at the main page "So you want a cap and ball revolver?" lt will tell you everything you need to get started.
After you read all the stuff that Gatefeo has written, you should be ready to shoot. It helped me alot.
OJW

the rifleer · August 13, 2011, 12:05 AM

Ive always just used powder and ball. Its smart to use grease, but its time consuming and I don't use it.

bigminnow · August 13, 2011, 04:35 PM

Thanks for all the info...I bought some Shocky's (sp) FFFG powder today and on the label it says "no patch needed - seat ball firmly on powder". But I think I will use a pre-lubed cut pad. I like the idea of getting a little lube in the barrel as I shoot.
Down here in TN it has been hot and humid this Spring and Summer so I'm going to stay away from the lube on top of the ball and save that for the Fall and Winter time if I use it.

Next mention if you're still reading

...the wedge that keeps the barrel attached on one of the guns goes in straight when you start putting it in and then it starts angling toward the cylinder. I have to rap it pretty hard just to get it flush to the other side. Also, the screw will not go flush to the barrel when I screw it down. Should I send this gun back and let them work on it?

Thanks again...

Hawg · August 13, 2011, 05:02 PM

The wedge screw isn't supposed to be flush with the barrel. There's no need to remove it. It's only purpose on a repro is to catch the wedge spring and keep the wedge from coming completely out when you disassemble it. On originals it could be screwed out some and left there and served the purpose of keeping the wedge from being driven in too deep.

ZVP · August 13, 2011, 07:40 PM

I have mostly used patches and with good success, thry're far easier and neater than Crisco or grease. They still lube the boreand swab it slightly.
With Brass framed guns don't go over 20 gr just to keep the gun working for a long time. There's not much benifit to overloading a Brass framed revolver. I assure you that you will stretch it somewhere and thus shorten it's usefull life.
For your next gun, spend the small extra amount and get a steel frame. With the correct powder and sensable loads you will never have to worry again!
BP shooting is a heck of a lot of fun, be sensable andsafe and you'll always have safe shooting sessions.
ZVP

bigminnow · August 14, 2011, 10:15 AM

Good info on the wedge and screw...on one of my guns the wedge easily sticks out the far side about 1/8 inch or more and the screw goes all the way in flush. On my other gun (same model) the wedge is flush on the far side and is angled toward the back and the screw will not go flush. As long as both of them hold together I will be alright.

I'll keep the loads to 20 gr and I think I like the idea of a patch with a lube on it.

Thanks for the info. I'll post one of these weekends after I get to shoot these twin guns.

Hawg · August 14, 2011, 10:54 AM

Flush on the off side is good. The wedge will go deeper as it wears from constant assembly/disassembly. It shouldn't take more than thumb pressure to seat it on a gun that's had some use. If it's angled the wedge slot in the arbor is probably out of line.

bigminnow · August 14, 2011, 05:33 PM

The 44 with the angled wedge and screw that will not go flush has not been shot yet...would you send it back and have it checked if it were you? I would have to ship it back to Traditions....thanks for your input...

Hardy · August 14, 2011, 11:40 PM

Ya'll will think I'm crazy--but on my gun -I can knock the wedge out w/my thumb. Don't like a tight wedge But I can always put in in a little further for tightness.

Use wads if you use real BP or grease cylinders w/ crisco or BP gun grease . If you do that you won't be able to hold your gun or place caps on nipples since you have made a greasy mess--so use wads

I think with substitutes that it is probally safe to not use either as long as you see a shaved ring around your seated bullet. But it doesn't hurt to use wads. I had a chain fire once and it was frightening potentially dangerous and maybe deadly. What some don't know is that if your cap fires and the powder doesn't explode-- don't cock to next chamber and fire. There is a possibility that there was enough pressure to put that ball into the cone and when firing second ball---um you might have a barrel that is a peeled banana at the best or have a hand destroyed or not getting more graphic WORSE Take time and use recommended wads and do not cock to next chamber after mis fire until you safely inspect that misfired chamber.

WBH

zullo74 · August 15, 2011, 07:33 AM

Hardy,

I don't think you are crazy at all!

Wedges/arbors on Colt should be fitted for a thumb pressure fit. All mine have been fitted as such.
Your cautionary statement is well founded and should be 'normal' procedure by all.

Hawg · August 15, 2011, 10:32 AM

Quote:

I had a chain fire once and it was frightening potentially dangerous and maybe deadly

I had many, many chain fires when I was 12 years old. There's nothing to be frightened about. They're not particularly dangerous unless you're standing where you shouldn't be standing when somebody else has one. The ball that goes down the bore is the only one that has any real velocity to it. The rest only go a few yards.

ZVP · August 15, 2011, 12:45 PM

Back in the old days following the Civil War quite a few "Reb" Brass frame revolvers and several clones (like Manhattens) permiated the frontier. These and the many copycat Brassers werehanded out to young men , homesteders, and even some unlucky wanna-be gun hands
Caliber was predominatelly the .36 and I don't know if anyone marketed the big .44 ball in a brass framed gun?
Today manufacturers would have us believe that many Brass framed guns ruled the Old West when this was not true. Todays .44 brassers should be shot witha sensible mindset! Load low (15 to 22 grains of powder) and your gun will last! Use a filler such as Cream of Wheat to space the ball up to the forcing Cone and to take up free space in the chambers and compress the propellant for safety. Accuracy dosent necessarilly come with maximum loads. Often it's a mid-range load that does it. Load heavy and you WILL damage a Brass Frame!
Being a 16 year old young man in Texas/ New Mexico /or the California Gold Fields must have been an exciting time!
Just as a matter of safety, I have sprung the extra few dollars to buy and shoot steel frame guns (save my first Traditions .44 Brass frame Colt replica. Reguardless of caliber, I suggest you stay with steel!
HTH,
ZVP

Hawg · August 15, 2011, 02:12 PM

Manhattens were steel frame. No, nobody produced a brass frame .44

OutlawJoseyWales · August 15, 2011, 03:39 PM

Hawg,
I can't imagine how amazing it would have been to be 12 years old and have a B.P. Revolver.
Why, it's pretty amazing to me now and I'm 54.

OJW

Hardy · August 15, 2011, 10:39 PM

Well, I'm 59 and I was 19 when I shot a gunnison that chain fired. I thought it was broke until someone later came to me and loaded it again using vaseline. Maybe the chainfire that Hawg said is not that dangerous but a stuck bullet in the barrel waiting for a next one is. I built some kits until I was 21 and never messed with them again until 3 years ago. Now I got too many of them

WBH

Hawg · August 16, 2011, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Maybe the chainfire that Hawg said is not that dangerous but a stuck bullet in the barrel waiting for a next one is.

The one in the barrel will leave at full force. The others wont have bore pressure plus hitting the frame will slow them even further. I've had chain fires over water and they don't go very far and just go bloop when they hit water like tossing a rock underhanded.

Quote:

I can't imagine how amazing it would have been to be 12 years old and have a B.P. Revolver.

I had worn out the .22 Buffalo Scout I got when I was 10. I'd saved my grass cutting money for a new .22 and got my mom to take me to the gun store 30 miles away. I saw that 58 Remington there and forgot all about a .22

Doc Hoy · August 16, 2011, 06:46 AM

You asked about sending one of your revolvers back.

Not really certain what the problem is but I doubt there is anything really wrong with the pistol.

Not at all uncommon for the geometry of the pistol to change slightly over time because of the stresses involved in loading and shooting and the frequent disassembly for cleaning and such.

If you can get the wedge to go all the way into the slot and hold the barrel in place I would say, just shoot it.

August 12, 2011, 10:54 PM	#1
bigminnow Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Posts: 98	1851 loading questions I'm new to black powder shooting but after seeing my uncle's 1851 revolver, I'm hooked. I bought two 1851 Pietta Navy and I've searched and read some loading instructions and need some input. In the instructions that came with the revolvers, there were two different ways mentioned...one in Pietta's instructions, one in the importer's instructions. 1) Powder, wad or patch, ball 2) Powder, ball Is one better than the other and what are the advantages/disadvantages of each? I have also looked at products like Ox-Yoke and generic dry lube patches (Cabela's...) Last, the instructions said use between 13 - 15 grain powder. That seems pretty light. Also said to use a .454 ball. In my uncle's gun we've been using a .451 ball and 20 -25 gr powder. BTW, all these guns are brass frame. Help...I want to go shooting on Saturday... Thanks...

August 12, 2011, 11:16 PM	#2
smokepole14 Member Join Date: March 20, 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 56	The wad is really a personal preferance so its all up to you. The purpose of a wad is to keep from getting a chain fire(more than one chamber going off) and to help keep the fouling down. Some shooters don't use the wad but instead use crisco or bore butter on top of the ball once it is seated, but be aware in hot weather it can get pretty messy. If you use any type of lube on the chambers stay away from anything with petrolem in it. You'll end up with a lot of tar in your barrel and a bad day when it comes cleaning time. Wonder wads can be bought fairly cheap pre lubed or you can punch them out of wool yourself with a punch. Personally myself I use the wads that are prelubed and have had no chainfires. Just make sure your balls leave a lead shaved ring when they are seated to ensure tight fitting. Another thing most chainfires come from loose fitting caps, so make sure your caps have a good fit to the nipple. Since you are shooting a brass frame I wouldnt go over 25 grains that would be a maximum load. Brass is a softer metal than steel so over time it will stretch. So just keep it under 25gr, tight fitting caps and balls, and whether or not if you choose a wad and have FUN!!!! __________________ Neemo: So if you want these horses, I sell them to you. Did you bring some gold with you? John Chisum No. Neemo: Silver? John Chisum: Just lead!

August 13, 2011, 12:05 AM	#4
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	Ive always just used powder and ball. Its smart to use grease, but its time consuming and I don't use it. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

August 13, 2011, 07:40 PM	#7
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Re: Patches I have mostly used patches and with good success, thry're far easier and neater than Crisco or grease. They still lube the boreand swab it slightly. With Brass framed guns don't go over 20 gr just to keep the gun working for a long time. There's not much benifit to overloading a Brass framed revolver. I assure you that you will stretch it somewhere and thus shorten it's usefull life. For your next gun, spend the small extra amount and get a steel frame. With the correct powder and sensable loads you will never have to worry again! BP shooting is a heck of a lot of fun, be sensable andsafe and you'll always have safe shooting sessions. ZVP

August 15, 2011, 12:45 PM	#14
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Brassers? Back in the old days following the Civil War quite a few "Reb" Brass frame revolvers and several clones (like Manhattens) permiated the frontier. These and the many copycat Brassers werehanded out to young men , homesteders, and even some unlucky wanna-be gun hands Caliber was predominatelly the .36 and I don't know if anyone marketed the big .44 ball in a brass framed gun? Today manufacturers would have us believe that many Brass framed guns ruled the Old West when this was not true. Todays .44 brassers should be shot witha sensible mindset! Load low (15 to 22 grains of powder) and your gun will last! Use a filler such as Cream of Wheat to space the ball up to the forcing Cone and to take up free space in the chambers and compress the propellant for safety. Accuracy dosent necessarilly come with maximum loads. Often it's a mid-range load that does it. Load heavy and you WILL damage a Brass Frame! Being a 16 year old young man in Texas/ New Mexico /or the California Gold Fields must have been an exciting time! Just as a matter of safety, I have sprung the extra few dollars to buy and shoot steel frame guns (save my first Traditions .44 Brass frame Colt replica. Reguardless of caliber, I suggest you stay with steel! HTH, ZVP

August 12, 2011, 11:30 PM	#3
OutlawJoseyWales Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 237	Bigminnow, look for the information that's pinned in the Sticky at the main page "So you want a cap and ball revolver?" lt will tell you everything you need to get started. After you read all the stuff that Gatefeo has written, you should be ready to shoot. It helped me alot. OJW

August 13, 2011, 04:35 PM	#5
bigminnow Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Posts: 98	Thanks for all the info...I bought some Shocky's (sp) FFFG powder today and on the label it says "no patch needed - seat ball firmly on powder". But I think I will use a pre-lubed cut pad. I like the idea of getting a little lube in the barrel as I shoot. Down here in TN it has been hot and humid this Spring and Summer so I'm going to stay away from the lube on top of the ball and save that for the Fall and Winter time if I use it. Next mention if you're still reading ...the wedge that keeps the barrel attached on one of the guns goes in straight when you start putting it in and then it starts angling toward the cylinder. I have to rap it pretty hard just to get it flush to the other side. Also, the screw will not go flush to the barrel when I screw it down. Should I send this gun back and let them work on it? Thanks again...

August 13, 2011, 05:02 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The wedge screw isn't supposed to be flush with the barrel. There's no need to remove it. It's only purpose on a repro is to catch the wedge spring and keep the wedge from coming completely out when you disassemble it. On originals it could be screwed out some and left there and served the purpose of keeping the wedge from being driven in too deep.

August 14, 2011, 10:15 AM	#8
bigminnow Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Posts: 98	Good info on the wedge and screw...on one of my guns the wedge easily sticks out the far side about 1/8 inch or more and the screw goes all the way in flush. On my other gun (same model) the wedge is flush on the far side and is angled toward the back and the screw will not go flush. As long as both of them hold together I will be alright. I'll keep the loads to 20 gr and I think I like the idea of a patch with a lube on it. Thanks for the info. I'll post one of these weekends after I get to shoot these twin guns.

August 14, 2011, 10:54 AM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Flush on the off side is good. The wedge will go deeper as it wears from constant assembly/disassembly. It shouldn't take more than thumb pressure to seat it on a gun that's had some use. If it's angled the wedge slot in the arbor is probably out of line.

August 14, 2011, 05:33 PM	#10
bigminnow Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Posts: 98	The 44 with the angled wedge and screw that will not go flush has not been shot yet...would you send it back and have it checked if it were you? I would have to ship it back to Traditions....thanks for your input...

August 14, 2011, 11:40 PM	#11
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Ya'll will think I'm crazy--but on my gun -I can knock the wedge out w/my thumb. Don't like a tight wedge But I can always put in in a little further for tightness. Use wads if you use real BP or grease cylinders w/ crisco or BP gun grease . If you do that you won't be able to hold your gun or place caps on nipples since you have made a greasy mess--so use wads I think with substitutes that it is probally safe to not use either as long as you see a shaved ring around your seated bullet. But it doesn't hurt to use wads. I had a chain fire once and it was frightening potentially dangerous and maybe deadly. What some don't know is that if your cap fires and the powder doesn't explode-- don't cock to next chamber and fire. There is a possibility that there was enough pressure to put that ball into the cone and when firing second ball---um you might have a barrel that is a peeled banana at the best or have a hand destroyed or not getting more graphic WORSE Take time and use recommended wads and do not cock to next chamber after mis fire until you safely inspect that misfired chamber. WBH

August 15, 2011, 07:33 AM	#12
zullo74 Junior member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 374	Hardy, I don't think you are crazy at all! Wedges/arbors on Colt should be fitted for a thumb pressure fit. All mine have been fitted as such. Your cautionary statement is well founded and should be 'normal' procedure by all.

August 15, 2011, 02:12 PM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Manhattens were steel frame. No, nobody produced a brass frame .44

August 15, 2011, 03:39 PM	#16
OutlawJoseyWales Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 237	Hawg, I can't imagine how amazing it would have been to be 12 years old and have a B.P. Revolver. Why, it's pretty amazing to me now and I'm 54. OJW

August 15, 2011, 10:39 PM	#17
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Well, I'm 59 and I was 19 when I shot a gunnison that chain fired. I thought it was broke until someone later came to me and loaded it again using vaseline. Maybe the chainfire that Hawg said is not that dangerous but a stuck bullet in the barrel waiting for a next one is. I built some kits until I was 21 and never messed with them again until 3 years ago. Now I got too many of them WBH

August 16, 2011, 06:46 AM	#19
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Bigminnow You asked about sending one of your revolvers back. Not really certain what the problem is but I doubt there is anything really wrong with the pistol. Not at all uncommon for the geometry of the pistol to change slightly over time because of the stresses involved in loading and shooting and the frequent disassembly for cleaning and such. If you can get the wedge to go all the way into the slot and hold the barrel in place I would say, just shoot it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.