New gun owner needs advice

[Old Bill Dibble]

I don't care how hard a round hits as long as it can meet the range/accuracy/availability criteria.

And as you all know, a .22 rimfire is almost as rare on shelves these days as .50BMG.

If you don't care how hard it hits you are doing something wrong. I am not worried though. An elk tag (if you could get one) will cost about the same as your budget for the rifle. That is just for the tag.

.22 not on the shelves? I see approximately 200 vendors on line with it in stock.

[kraigwy]

But with the potential to take a human down at the longer ranges. Staying as FAR away from anything SHTF related as possible, mind you.................................................................................................................. I am currently in the process of enlisting into the military (pre-MEPS, post-ASVAB) and plan enlisting in as a Cav scout or MP.

I certainly hope you leave the first part out when talking to the recruiter. He'll send you home POST HASTE.

[MilitaMatters]

I like your suggestion of getting a 12 gauge for my first rifle, and i do plan on purchasing a Mossberg 590 at a later date when funds allow.

In response to your statement on ethical range for the taking of game, I would never dream to hit what i can't shoot. The only target I'd ever hope to hit at such a range (+500m) would be steel. The rifle I want needs to perform as my "wanna be sniper" system, and also my go-to hunting rifle.

As I've stated before, power at longer ranges matters little to me, as I wouldn't attempt a shot from such a long distance on a live target. 400m is the maximum I would dream to attempt, and only on game the size of elk, where vitals are large and easy targets. And .308 hunting loads seem to have the energy to get through soft 1/8 steel at 500m so I feel it is acceptable on an elk at 400m

But on the flip side of the coin, the M16 system has a 500m range on its iron sights, so I know it can be considered lethal at that range as well. Accurate, no. But lethal none the less.


Basically, my options boil down to this;

5.56 vs. 7.62x51 (.223vs.308)

Thank you for your extremely bright insight and advice,

-MM

[Old Bill Dibble]

But on the flip side of the coin, the M16 system has a 500m range on its iron sights, so I know it can be considered lethal at that range as well. Accurate, no. But lethal none the less.

5.56 vs. 7.62x51 (.223vs.308)

Apparently you know things that I don't or something like that.

Totally beside whatever the point of whatever this was but if you want to be a sniper that would mean joining the infantry and going to a light unit. You don't see a whole lot of cav scout snipers, none with ASI designation it isn't offered. Rarely you might see an MP but the competition for schools like sniper school can be pretty fierce.

[Blindstitch]

I seem to think around WWI there were a lot of rifles with 1500-2000 meter sights on them. Doesn't mean they could shoot anywhere that far and be accurate.

[James K]

Actually, a good M16 with a good shooter can do pretty well at 500-600 yards if there is no wind.

Still, at that range I would want 7.62x51 (7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester). If someone else (like a nice uncle) is buying the ammo, his choice.*

In the olden days, the military indulged in what they called "volley firing" in which whole companies lined up, set their sights to 2000 yards or meters, and cut loose at a target they might not even be able to see, like a railway station where enemy troops were getting off trains and forming up. Or at least that was the theory. I know such shooting was done; whether anyone was ever hurt, I don't know.

*Caution on accepting free ammo from your friendly uncle; it comes with a note that the targets shoot back.

Jim

[Sharkbite]

WAY too many "call of duty" type statements in this thread.

To the OP...

You say you want a "long range" rifle but spec 7.62x39???
You dont care how hard it hits at distance, but want to hunt (something) at extended ranges?
You want a rifle thats a 7/8 on a 10scale on a budget that procludes a CZ ( in the afore mentioned X39 ctg?
You say your "skills are high" but this is your first gun??

I would say, wait till you have at least gone thru Bootcamp and qual'd with a service rifle. Take advantage of whatever training you can get. You start shooting high Expert with your service rifle...then start looking into "long range" stuff.

[drobs]

About a year or 2 ago, there Centerfire Systems and other online gun companies were selling Zastava M85 Mini-Mauser bolt action rifles - cheap. They had all sorts of calibers including 7.62x39.

Like many other deals I missed out. You might look around on gunbroker and see if you can find one + read some of the reviews / videos on them.

[40CalGuy]

i see those on www.classicfirearms.com from time to time

[raimius]

If you are going to hunt elk, get a .30-06 bolt action. If not, get a .223 if most of your practice will be less than 500m. If most of your practice will be 500-800m, get a .308.

Why?
.223 is cheaper, and shoots flat (but does not deliver big-game effects at distance)
.308 is good for hunting, and resists wind effects better than .223.
.30-06 is a good big-game cartridge, that can hit a bit harder than .308, if loaded right.

[Panfisher]

What is military stance on privately owned weapons? If you are in the enlistment process what are you going to do with the rifle while in service.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Panfisher

What is military stance on privately owned weapons? If you are in the enlistment process what are you going to do with the rifle while in service.

For a single soldier living in the barracks it isn't a simple thing. It has to stay in the units arms room, and basically the weapon gets a hand receipt signing it over as the commanders responsibility. Then when the soldier wants to take it out to the range they have to get permission to take it out of the arms room. The commander has to authorize it by having the unit armorer come in on their day off and open the arms room and issue the rifle to its owner. Then it has to be returned to the arms room when the soldier is done at the range. So you have to again coordinate withe the unit armorer to return it to the arms room.

Every firearm must be registered as well with the provost marshals office by serial number. You are only allowed to transport them from the barracks, post housing, off-post housing to the range on post and back, same applies to taking it off post once you enter the installation. Don't get caught at the PX, gas station, or food vendor on post with your guns or you'll probably face at a minimum of a company grade Article 15. That could mean your restricted to post, extra duty, and forfeiture of half your pay usually a minimum of 30 days.

If living in barracks it's simpler just to leave your rifle, shotguns, and pistols with your parents or someone you trust. You can't take firearms to most overseas duty stations as well. Firearm ownership is a PITA for a single soldier in the military, unless they are authorized to live off post.

It's also a lot simpler to use off post shooting ranges, as usually you have to hold the rank of E5 or higher to open the range for privately owned weapons on post. When you open the range you are responsible for overseeing the safety of everyone who shows up to shoot until you close it and turn it back over to range control. You're also responsible for the cleanliness of the range when you sign for it.

[Old Bill Dibble]

I am going to go ahead and say that a lot of the above is old data and not correct. Each post has a different weapons policy as set by the installation commander with input from the major commands on whatever installation it is. Some allow storage in BOQ/ BEQ, some don't. Ft. Stewart for example allows people to carry while on the highway right of way that runs through post.

I am not going to cover every post but some posts now allow concealed carry for certain people under certain circumstances. Many posts have a POW range that may be associated with a Rod and Gun club that has regular business hours. Some allow storage at the Rod and Gun club.

All of the services now offer LEOSA credentialing for off duty and retired MP/ SPs that allows on base and nationwide carry with different levels of red tapes and hurdles by service:

http://www.afsf.lackland.af.mil/LEOSA.html

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/ad2015_03.pdf

Other changes too:

Apparently the Air Force trusts it's airmen more than the Chief of Staff of the Army trusts its soldiers:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...arry-base.html

The Navy went with armed seamen guards at it's recruiting stations. I will point out that the concealed carry guy that fought it out with the terror attacker in Chattanooga did not receive any negative actions such as Captains Mast or Court Martial.

The Army would rather have a hundred soldiers murdered by terrorists than one accidental shooting. Because by their twisted logic the accident was preventable and the deaths at the hands of bad guys were not.



Bringing a weapon to basic training or a school will get you thrown out of either. Our hero above could leave it with family or friends until he gets shipped to his PDS.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Old Bill Dibble

I am going to go ahead and say that a lot of the above is old data and not correct.

All that I stated is in line with the current AR 190- 11 and some is 4th ID standards at Ft Carson (closest base). However, you're right each post is a little different. Also you posted memos that only apply to off duty LEO/MP that doesn't apply to all soldiers. As far as traveling a highway through a base, you usually don't enter a base gate until you exit the highway.

All stand alone facilities off Army bases are required to be armed now since Chattanooga. My Reserve facility has at least one E5 or higher armed while the building is occupied, since it isn't located in a military base. However I'm sure there will be a policy change that state no personally owned weapons. I know the policy I was briefed on had quite the laundry list of UCMJ offenses we'd be violating by bringing a weapon to our facility.

As far as the Navy officer involved in the TN shootings, who knows what the final fallout will be? He was in violation of policy by carrying a personal weapon at his work. He may eventually be charged or asked to retire. He may simply be passed over for his next promotion, which ultimately ends his career. Of course nothing could happen to him as well.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Actually the Navy made a public statement that the LCDR would face no adverse action at all.

The OP stated he was considering becoming an MP, so I think information on that would be relevant to this thread don't you?

Just because you don't go through a gate does not mean that you aren't on a military base. Many bases only secure certain areas. It's better than it used to be but there are a lot of bases that get cut through traffic.

[taylorce1]

I didn't follow the fallout of the Chattanooga shootings, while the Navy didn't bring charges that doesn't mean that nothing happened. Here it is a over year later and the news has been extremely quiet since early August 2015.

Your memo on LEO carrying on installation is only relevant if the OP has been an MP with six years of cumulative experience (para 4) in the military. Since the OP is only 18 he wouldn't be able to posses a handgun to carry concealed or otherwise off duty on a Federal installation. That still doesn't change the fact that as a soldier living in the barracks, all privately owned weapons will be stored in the units arms room.

All I can say is military laws don't govern interstate highways, as long as the vehicles stays on those highways that intersect bases. However, pull off the interstate on an installation and get caught with an unregistered firearm and see what happens.

[jackstrawIII]

I am this > < close to buying a CZ 527 in 7.62x39. Looks like an amazing and handy short range hunting gun.

I'd say save up for a few months... then buy the gun you really want. Better to wait and save up for this beautiful walnut/steel gun than to settle for something bland and plastic now.

[MilitaMatters]

That was the firearm I have also been looking forward to purchasing with greedy eyes. The only problem I have with it would be magazine replacements should one malfunction/break. Replacements can be hard to find sometimes

And in regards to the military associated posts regarding my choice in enlistment occupation, I've already determined I wish to join as an MP. So I'd more than likely be allowed to have a POW on base or at least in my living quarters on base. Off base POW's do not need to be registered with the unit armorer as long as they remain off-base. Any weapon that comes on-base needs to be registered and only on some posts, checked out from the armorer. But this is primarily up to the post commander's position on it and their policy.

I have family that would hold onto the firearm for me until i am in a position to require and store it legally.



Now on a seperate note, could someone please explain the differences between .308 and 30-06? Also, why no love for the .303 brit?

Thanks all again,

-MM

[dakota.potts]

.308 is a shorter cartridge than a .30-06. It generally fits in a smaller rifle (short action receivers) versus the longer .30-06 cartridge (which requires a long action receiver). They are close in power with modern loads although .30-06 takes the edge in power and may also generally be loaded with heavier weight bullets than .308.

.303 Brit is, in my opinion, more of a collector or sporter's cartridge. There are no modern production rifles made for the cartridge that I'm aware of and ammunition selection is somewhat limited. It's not something you'll be guaranteed to find as easily, gives you fewer choices, and generally has no benefits over .308 or .30-06. If your goal is to have commonly found ammunition, even 7.62X39 or 7.62X54 make more sense because at least a large number of people in America have those.

If the goal is common ammo availability for hunting and general use, .30-06 is versatile and widely available. If, as your name implies, it's for another purpose related to militia purposes, it's my opinion .308 is more likely to be found due to its proliferation in both bolt action rifles and semi auto "tactical" rifles. I don't know if that's as true in California as it is in the gun-loving south, though.

If mil-surp rifles are your thing, the Spanish produced two Mauser models (FR-7 and FR-8) chambered in 7.62X51mm NATO, but I am not sure if they play well with standard .308 ammunition and that would be an issue for hunting purposes.

I think you should get a .22 rifle to practice on. My CZ 452 has been one of the best investments in my shooting, but you can find a suitable .22 for much less. For your centerfire rifle, I don't see any reason you couldn't do what you're wanting with a Savage Axis, Remington 783/700, or Ruger American in .308/.30-06. 7.62X39 is a cool cartridge (I have a VZ 58 that shoots it and I've thought about doing a bolt action in the same caliber) but I don't really see its benefits as your primary and only bolt action centerfire long gun when .308 is an option.

Just my thoughts.

[Blindstitch]

303 ammo can cost anywhere from $15-33 for 20. It's a roundnose heavy bullet and I believe designed for roundnose. I sold a #1 Mark 3 Enfield in December. Just didn't grow on me even though I have a 1899 Remington Lee in 30-40 Krag. It's a nearly identical round.

Price wise both of those are costly vs 30-06 and 308.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by MilitaMatters

And in regards to the military associated posts regarding my choice in enlistment occupation, I've already determined I wish to join as an MP. So I'd more than likely be allowed to have a POW on base or at least in my living quarters on base.

It isn't rocket science, google and read Army Regulation (AR) 190-11. It clearly states that all POW will be stored in the arms room if the soldier lives in the barracks. There are no exceptions for MP's or any other MOS. Also you need SIX years of cumulative MP experience to carry off duty on an Army installation according to the memo that was linked, look at paragraph 4 item h if I remember correctly. So no as a single soldier on base you can't have a POW in your quarters.

I know you want to be an MP but don't be surprised if that MOS isn't offered. The Army has quotas for schools and if they don't need any more MP's they won't offer the job to you. Do you know how you placed on the ASVAB and were your scores high enough to qualify you for MP? You'll need an ST score of 95 or higher to qualify for MP.

ASVAB scores needed by MOS

[Old Bill Dibble]

It isn't rocket science, google and read Army Regulation (AR) 190-11. It clearly states that all POW will be stored in the arms room if the soldier lives in the barracks. There are no exceptions for MP's or any other MOS. Also you need SIX years of cumulative MP experience to carry off duty on an Army installation according to the memo that was linked, look at paragraph 4 item h if I remember correctly. So no as a single soldier on base you can't have a POW in your quarters.

Unless he joins the Air Force that is.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Old Bill Dibble

Unless he joins the Air Force that is.

Doesn't matter if he joins the Air Force as Security Police or not, he's still under the age of 21 and can't carry off duty on any Federal Installation. While it's true the Air Force has removed the cumulative experience, but it used to be 10 years before they could carry. However, as enlisted you must reach Skill level 5 which is considered journeyman. I'm guessing this will be a minimum of the rank of E5.

1.1.1.6. Meet all Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) requirements identified in DoDI 5525.15. Security Forces 3P031 must obtain a 5-skill level; 31P must obtain the rank of First Lieutenant; DAF Officers must have received qualification training.

Here is the standard for keeping personally owned weapons on Peterson AFB. I found this to be pretty much the standard Commander's Policy on other AF bases such as Tinker, Hill, Warren, etc.

Dormitory, Visiting Quarters, and TLF Residents: Residents are required to store their firearms in the 21st SFS Armory. Required documentation includes Air Force Form 1314 and DD Form 2760 available at the 21 SFS Armory or online, must be filled out and returned to the armory. Information required includes the firearm's make, model, serial number, caliber and gauge. Because these firearms must be stored in the 21st SFS Armory, additional paperwork is required in order to document the firearm's condition. Privately owned firearms are prohibited from the dormitories, TLF, and VQ at all times, regardless of whether the firearm is loaded or unloaded.

Transport: When entering the installation, personnel must notify the entry controller when they are in possession of a privately owned firearm or ammunition. Transporting privately owned firearms and ammunition on the installation is prohibited, except to and from authorized storage or shooting areas. Firearms and ammunition may only be transported directly to the 21st SFS Armory, or their owner's residence in base housing. As a reminder, no firearms or ammunition may be present in any temporary living quarter or dormitory.

Then there is the fact that the OP listed MP and Cav Scout as the two military occupations he's most interested in. Cav Scout is distinctly an Army profession. However, MP can also mean Marine Corps. My bet is that the OP is talking to an Army recruiter.