Pistol caliber carbines...for defense!?

[MarkCO]

You could always opt for the ultimate middle of the road compromise platform.

The .30 Carbine, in old or new trim, beats out the handgun PCCs but is lighter and cheaper than an AR. There are some new really good defense directed loads out for them now too. Ammo is cheaper than .223 or .300 BO and on about a par with 9mm.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Strafer Gott

My mistake. So what carbine designs are locked breech?

All the pistol-caliber carbines I can think of are all blowback except for the Kriss Vector and the MP5, which are delayed blowback. I can't think of any true locked breech design off the top of my head.

[Regular Joe]

I find it just plain goofy that people refer to 9mm FMJ performance when they want to knock the caliber.
My hand load for my 17L cronos' @ 1,400 fps with a 124 gr. JHP. That's 500 ft./lbs. energy. The Marshal/Sanow reports that were done in the 90's concluded that this is exactly the load that accounted for the highest percentage of one shot stops from pistol ammo. That was a 125 gr. bullet from a .357 Mag. but with the same energy.
If there's a problem with 9mm carbine performance, why did the armies of Finland, G.B., Germany, Israel, and many others use it for military purpose? And that was with FMJ ammo!
If you want to knock the viability of the 9mm carbine, make up a little You tube video of how easily you can laugh at being hit with one, and post it here!

[scrubcedar]

Seems to me that for a very long time a pistol caliber lever gun was considered a very capable anti-personnel weapon in close quarters for a good reason.
A carbine with better quality modern ammo/bullet choices, a larger/ detachable magazine, and no need for the shooter to manually cycle the action only makes it better.

[Theohazard]

Joe, most of us aren't knocking the 9mm as a defensive round, we're just pointing out that the 5.56 is more effective, that's all.

Originally Posted by Regular Joe

If there's a problem with 9mm carbine performance, why did the armies of Finland, G.B., Germany, Israel, and many others use it for military purpose? And that was with FMJ ammo!

Most military forces have gone away from pistol-caliber SMGs; now you'll mostly see them with rifle-caliber selective-fire carbines.

Originally Posted by Regular Joe

If you want to knock the viability of the 9mm carbine, make up a little You tube video of how easily you can laugh at being hit with one, and post it here!

This is a ridiculous statement; if someone argues that one round is more effective than another that doesn't mean they should be fine getting shot with the less-effective round. So if I argue that a .25 ACP is less effective than a .45 ACP does that mean my argument is invalid unless I can laugh when getting shot with a .25?

[Justice06RR]

Model12Win, for the reasons you stated in post15 a pistol caliber carbine should suffice.

Personally I just prefer rifle/carbine length firearms (aka long guns) to be in rifle calibers. If I wanted a pistol caliber handgun, then a Glock17 is a good choice, even with the 30rd mags.

[NWCP]

I went with a .45ACP carbine for a pistol caliber self defense weapon rather than the 9mm. I was looking for a carbine that took the same ammo as my primary carry pistol. I chose the HK USC. It's is very accurate and hasn't had any issues in the 13 years I've owned it. If needed I can fire .45 Super through it though I find a decent .45ACP JHP works just fine and would do the job if called upon.

[pmeisel]

Seems to me that there was something similar to a pistol caliber carbine, with auto fire capability, designed by a man named Thompson..... worked pretty well if I remember my history.....

[Model12Win]

Nice to see everyone's opinions on this. I think this subject is rather polarizing and I'm glad to see some good discussions coming out of it!

[ozo]

Although I have quite a few semi-auto pistols, I am a revolver guy. I am also very fond of my T/C and all the barrels. I have several pistol-caliber carbines, both lever and bolts, and .357 is by far my favorite. I load everything I shoot with the least exception, and normally I load separately for the carbines than I do for the handguns. My go-to HD would depend on where I was in the house and what was on my hip, but I would NEVER hesitate to pick up a .357 carbine,
in fact, I would use my handgun to get to my carbine or shotgun....or rifle for that matter, depending on the situation. Since the introduction of the Ruger M77/357 recently, it is now my preference over a lever.
If I had a fondness for semi-auto pistols over revolvers, my choice in carbines would be different. My favorite semi-auto is a S&W 5906 and I have been known to purchase one every time I see police trade-ins, but I don't shoot 9mm often so I don't load 9mm often so I don't shoot 9mm often......so I don't have much need for a 9mm carbine......but I would if I did. Makes sense ? My AR's are rifle calibers, as many of my T/C barrels are.
All that jibberish said, I don't know how a 9mm carbine would fare over a 9mm pistol. For me, the rounds would be loaded with different powders to coincide with the different barrel lengths. I don't know what you may gain using store ammo between the two. But in general, and to answer your initial question, I don't have a problem with a 9mm carbine for HD/SD. I just personally would go about it on a different path. It's the main reason I reload....period.....so I know what's inside, and I can control/alter it.

[Willie Lowman]

If you would keep a handgun for self defense, there is no reason not to put a stock on it.



Granted, my Uzi has a tax stamp to go with it so I can use the correct 10" barrel. That said, 32 rounds, almost no recoil, muzzle blast that is much more tolerable than a 5.56mm from even a 20" barrel. Rifle-like accuracy (yes if I am shooting past 50 yards i'd like my AR, please).

[Ibmikey]

An 1892 Winchester in 44-40 will put down the worst of them, and has since it's invention by John Browning. Just look at any cowboy movie from the 30's to the 60's and you will see just how effective it was with the stack of downed bad guys higher than the Washington monument. Seriously, a 44-40 carbine would be (and is) my choice over my AR's for in home intruders.

[P5 Guy]

Is my vote.
With the 16 inch barrel no I'd rather just use a shotgun either is just as unwieldy for overall length restriction according to the BATFE. (16 inch rifle or 18 inch shotgun barrel and 26 overall)
Now if no tax stamp/trust fund was required a 8 to 10 inch barrel and a folding stock on the line of the MP5 H&K even in semi-auto would work. Shoulder stock gives a more stable hold. About the only way I would go for a pistol caliber carbine.
Since the BATFE isn't going to relax the rules any time soon there isn't any of them in my future.
That UZI is another fine example.

[44 AMP]

The problem is that carbines chambered in 223 are better in every way.

Disagree.
.223 caliber carbines are better in a lot of ways, possibly better in all important ways, but cannot be better in every way, simply because 1) "every way" includes every thing about the gun and caliber, including your wants, needs, and desires. And 2)they are not "pistol caliber carbines", and really ought not to be included in the discussion.

For all those who point to the switch by the military and police from 9mm to 5.56mm for their carbine size weapons as "proof" of the better suitablity of the .223 carbine for personal defense, I think the reasoning is flawed.

Police and military use their weapons, not for defense, but for offense. And while individuals in those forces often do use their weapons for personal defense, those situations almost always occur during the course of offensive actions. Personal self defense for us ordinary private citizens is a different matter on many, many levels.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm NOT saying the .223 carbines aren't a good choice, just that choosing one for personal defense because its what the cops and soldiers use, for that reason alone, isn't proper reasoning.

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of .223 carbines vs pistol caliber carbines, go right ahead. It its own thread. Because it's not germane to the question being asked in this one.

I have 3 pistol caliber carbines in my current collection, a .357 Marlin lever gun, a semi auto Tommygun, and a Calico 9mm carbine. Each has advantages in certain situations, as do the other commonly available pistol caliber carbines of various designs and calibers.

The first advantage, shared by all the pistol caliber carbines is, that they are not pistols. They are legally rifles, and so all pistol laws and regulations do NOT apply. The main practical advantage of this is that in states and cities where it is difficult to legally possess a handgun, the carbine is often legally available without the same permit requirements. In some situations, this can be very significant.

The second advantage is that being carbines they are easier for most people to use (and get hits) at any range than a pistol. If you are looking at a home/camp defense gun, that anyone in the household might possibly need to use, the carbine is a better choice than any handgun.

Traditional lever actions have another advantage in today's climate, they do not easily fit the stereotype of the "assault weapon". This has no bearing on the practical use of the arm, but might have some influence on other's opinions about the use of said arm. Its tougher to paint a picture of the defender being...overzealous...(and therefore in the wrong about shooting) when the arm used isn't on the political witch hunt list.

Not something you can count on, nor take active advantage of, but a possible advantage, after the fact, in some situations. As recent events have shown, even things that appear to be clear cut and obvious (like defending yourself when someone is beating your head into the sidewalk), can be drawn out into years of litigation and problems, if someone else thinks they can make something out of it to advance their personal agenda.

Firepower is fun. Firepower can be useful. But remember, as a private citizen, we are both morally and financially responsible for EVERY round that we fire. There is no "line of duty" coverage against damages for us.

While my Calico holds 100rnds, and my Tommy gun holds 50 (drum), using hi mag capacity is rarely important in a civilian defense situation. (note that there is a Grand Canyon size gulf of difference between you or I deciding on what size mag capacity meets our personal needs and some political hack with govt paid protection deciding how many rounds our guns can legally hold)

There are many other things to consider as well. If you have a pistol caliber carbine, choosing it as your defense gun can be good sense. If you are going to buy a pistol caliber carbine, just for personal defense, there are other things you ought to consider, before making the final decision.

[Sarge]

I'd use one if that's all I had; but that applies to garden tools as well.

[Jim Downey]

Yeah, I'm with 44 AMP on this - there are a lot of very good reasons to consider a pistol caliber carbine as a very viable self-defense platform. Here's an article I wrote a couple years ago outlining my thoughts: To PC or Not To PC, that Is the Question: A Look at Pistol Caliber Carbines

And if you consider specific cartridges, the "power" differential with a true rifle cartridge (the .223/5.56) becomes even less of an issue - particularly when you're talking either .357 or .44 magnum long guns. Just browse the testing results on our site (which also graphs muzzle energy for each cartridge). One load I've been playing with recently generates 2,000+ ft/lbs out of my Winchester 94AE.

Bottom line for me - I really like the option to have a handgun and a long gun in the same cartridge. Yeah, there are trade-offs, but those can be intelligently managed.

Jim

[Strafer Gott]

I have and enjoy my Trappers in .357 and .44 magnum. It's the blowback nine mm carbines that leave me cold, I suppose familiarity breeds contempt for them. That said, my mindset about pistol carbines was about offensive combat power, not home or self defense, which is different. In my perfect world, threats are handled at the horizon. I see a pistol carbine as optimized for 50 yards. At 5 yards, HD/SD ranges, that advantage is out the window, and retention turns to disadvantage. Get one, experience it. Trappers, si.
Blowback, no!

[Fishbed77]

9x19mm has been the de-facto SMG cartridge of choice for years. So yeah - I assume it is pretty good at killing bad guys.

[SIGSHR]

Also remember, the goal is not to kill but to neutralize the threat. If you plug a BG breaking into your house, or are fighting off a screaming horde, there's no medic there to attend to him, drag him off, etc. Besides we civilians are not restricted to the use of FMJ ammunition.
IIRC there have been a few attempts at locked or delayed blowback actions with pistol calibers, but they are not worth the effort. The Thompson originally had the Bish lock, it was found unecessary as the weight of the breechblock kept the action locked until pressure had dropped to a safe level.
The PPSh M-1941 and PPS M-1943 used blowback action and the Soviets laoded their 7.62 pistol rounds pretty hot.
And I find the idea of a long arm and handgun in the same caliber-and using the same magazines-rational from a logistical viewpoint, and rather comforting.

[coldbeer]

IMHO Overpenetration is overrated, the CX4 storm is really nice they're just a little expensive.

[Coach Z]

I've got a KELTEC sub 2k in 9 to go along with my glocks.

Same ammo same mags. There is a great deal to be said for redundancy. I'm not saying that a pistol cal carbine is the end all be all best weapon ever but it's a flexible platform with shared ammo and magazines which is a very large bonus in my score sheet.

[IdahoG36]

I voted no. No reason to use a pistol caliber carbine for defense when you can build a short barreled rifle in calibers like 5.56mm, 7.62X39, 5.45X39, etc.
A short barreled rifle will be similar size or smaller in some cases, and fire a more substantial cartridge.
A submachine gun definitely has it's place for defense, but for a majority of us, is not an option. A semi auto pistol caliber carbine is pointless IMO.

[barnbwt]

B&T TP9
VZ61 Skorpion
Mini Uzi
P90
10" M4

Same size as an SB-AR? And M4's come with a select fire switch, too, so it's not like a semi-auto 223 SBR is "complete" either (for whatever that's worth). Interestingly enough, the TP9, PS90, and the AR cost about the same, and which do you think is easier to sell to John Q. Whatever for $1200?

Honestly, though, I'd not want any NFA weapon as my go-to. The last thing you want to be doing is trying to "emote" to the jury why you felt the need to run with a gun so dangerous and evil it is more closely regulated than narcotics, these days

TCB

(I'm pretty sure the Skorpion is an airsoft, but no one has a picture of a real one that isn't HUGE)

[Tejicano]

Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it... ($0.0)

I went through the decision process for a short, handy home defense "carbine" and came up with an AR handgun, 11.5 inch barrel, in 6.8X43mm.

I was thinking handgun calibers first - for me the calibers I was considering were either 10mm or 45ACP. Since recoil in a larger package would be negligible I didn't see a reason to limit myself to a smaller caliber. Of course these calibers would require a special ordered AR lower to accomodate wider magazines.

As I thought it through I just figured that for the same size package the rifle caliber just gives better performance overall. The 6.8 round was designed to perform well out of short barrels - I only loose about 15% energy over a 16 inch barrel - so I prefer that to a 5.56 which will loose a lot more potential energy. The buffer tube can be used for a proper cheek weld so it functions very similar to a carbine.

I do have a couple pistol caliber carbines. One is an Auto-Ordnance semi-auto Thompson which is longer and heavier than any of my FAL Para's - not a practical HD weapon. I also have a select fire, suppressed (two tax stamps) MAC-10 in 45ACP. The MAC-10 would be great in a SHTF scenario where a courtroom would not be part of the aftermath - but otherwise it stays in the safe.

[Sarge]

Just an observation... for dynamic building searches and/or entries, I'll still take a short 12 gauge over an MP5.