Can you distinguish serial #s for Non-S&W PPKs?

[Ignition Override]

They have been mfg. since 2002 only by S&W. If one happens to spot an older PPK at a gun show and you were resolved to consider only an Interarms or previous version, how would you identify the earlier non-S&W guns?
When they say "Under License..." doesn't this also include Interarms products?

I would even consider a PP, which was produced (after WW2) only in France: "Wikipedia".

Just received my first handgun, the WW2 Sauer 38H, and might enjoy a very similar German gun in .380, being smaller, for possible 'carry".
Handguns in the PP/PPK or Sig 232 styles have by far the most appeal, but I do Not enjoy shooting Polish P-64s belonging to three friends
(their "carry" guns), only with their original stiffer springs.

[PSP]

you were resolved to consider only an Interarms or previous version, how would you identify the earlier non-S&W guns?

It will be marked "Interarms" or "Made in Germany", (or both), or even "Made in France" if a Manurhin.

[carguychris]

^^^^ That's the most obvious way to tell, although to be completely accurate, most pistols from the Walther factory are marked "Made in W. Germany" or "Made in West Germany", because most production had moved to the USA by the time Germany unified.

FWIW every Interarms pistol I've examined was distinctively marked INTERARMS; likewise, the French Manurhin pistols display a distinctive Manurhin banner.

Prewar and wartime pistols don't generally carry "Made in..." markings because most weren't produced for the American commercial market. However, they will display "Zella-Mehlis (Thur)" in the slide legend rather than "Ulm/Do" ("Thur" refers to the German state of Thuringia, whereas "Do" refers to the Alb-Donau district of Baden-Württemberg.)

[Laz]

Also, the Smith-made guns are clearly marked "Smith & Wesson, Houlton, ME" and, in addition, have a distinctly longer and more pronounced grip tang, beavertail. The more recent Smith guns are also marked "PPK/S-1" to reflect some internal changes. I don't think the first Smith guns were "-1" but could be wrong about that.

[Ignition Override]

Thanks very much for the help.
When looking at a group of them (on GB), either most inscriptions are not legible or only the left side is shown.

With so many Many Mauser HScs having Interarms import markings, it was confusing deciding which PPKs were imported versus being mfg. here.

carguychris: In '77 I spent two months in Blaubeuren, which is about 30 km. west of Ulm. About twelve years ago might have been north of Suhl, during a trip to Meissen, just downstream from Dresden.

[Dfariswheel]

Also remember the American made PPK and PPK/s pistols made in the USA under license to Interarms.

These will have "Made in the USA Under License" and will NOT have either Interarms or S&W stamps.
Any Walther made by S&W will be stamped S&W.

[PSP]

These will have "Made in the USA Under License" and will NOT have either Interarms or S&W stamps.

That is not correct. Interarms guns made in the USA are also marked with Interarms on the right side of the slide. Interarms both imported and had guns manufactured.

...it was confusing deciding which PPKs were imported versus being mfg. here.

In general, blued Interarms guns were imported and stainless were made in the U.S.

[Ignition Override]

Wikipedia states that the Interarms PPK and PPKS was manufactured by Ranger, in Gadsden AL. Maybe this is too much detail.
It appears that the S series was built by "Interarms" and continued by S&W (?).

If I decide to buy a PPK as a first very-concealable carry gun next year, it might be better than the classic PP (ammo debates aside...): is shorter and has a lower height. Any S&W types will be excluded from consideration.

PSP: I'm trying to determine whether such a gun (maybe seen in our next show..) was only Imported by Interarms, versus being mfg. by them.
Any PPK slide marked "under license" etc on the left side must mean manufactured outside of Germany (?).

But if Only Imported by Interarms, nothing on the left says "under...", and is only inscribed on the slide's right side?

[PSP]

My PPK/s, 22lr, blued, on the left is stamped "Made in W Germany". On the right is stamped "Interarms".

My stainless PPK/s on the left is stamped "under license..." and "made in USA". On the right is stamped "Interarms"

Interarms both imported and had made, "under license" the PPK and PPK/s.

I also have a PP, shown here with the Interarms stainless PPK/s. You can see the different markings on the left side of each.

[jsbethel]

You may also find some Ranger pistols made just after the demise of Interarms to be marked "Walther LLC" on the right side of the slide.

You may want to check out the Walther Forum for more info - http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/pp-tp-series/

[Laz]

Any S&W types will be excluded from consideration.

There are a good number of folks who feel that way. Still, to ignore S&W pistols made in the last couple of years might be cutting yourself short. I remember. hearing many bad things about the Interarms versions for years. Now people look upon the Interarms era as Camelot. Just sayin'.

[carguychris]

Wikipedia states that the Interarms PPK and PPKS was manufactured by Ranger, in Gadsden AL... It appears that the S series was built by "Interarms" and continued by S&W (?).

Interarms was the importer and sales agent for almost all Walther PP-series pistols sold in the USA from 1956 until 2001, with the notable exception of those sold by Manurhin- more on this in a bit.

Postwar PP series production was restarted using parts manufactured by Manurhin in France, then sent to Walther for final finishing and assembly. IIRC this arrangement was initially made in the 1940's to compensate for Walther's lack of production capacity on the correct side of the Iron Curtain, but was continued for several decades because it conveniently freed up German plant capacity for military contract P1 pistols, and it was profitable for both companies.

The PPK/S was introduced after PPK importation was cut off by the 1968 GCA. The PPK/S mates the PPK slide and barrel to the longer PP grip frame, giving the gun enough ATF import points for legal importation. These guns continued to be made in West Germany, with blued or nickel finish.

In the late 70's (1978?) Interarms elected to introduce a stainless PPK/S. Since Interarms was an importer and not a manufacturer, it contracted with Mid-South Industries, an appliance and auto parts manufacturing conglomerate, to produce the SS pistols in Gadsden, AL, under a subsidiary called Ranger Manufacturing. IIRC the subsidiary's name was later changed to Black Creek Manufacturing, but AFAIK this amounted to corporate paper shuffling; they were still making the same pistols, in the same building, with the same corporate overseers.

IOW at this point, the pistols were being made in two places: the stainless PPK/S came from AL, and the blued or nickel PPK/S and PP came from West Germany- BOTH marked Interarms.

In the early 1980's, Walther attempted to terminate its production arrangement with Manurhin. Rather than concede, Manurhin started making entire PP's and PPK/S's themselves in 1984 and exporting them to the USA without involving Interarms, which understandably infuriated both Walther and Interarms. Lawsuits flew on both sides of the Atlantic, and in 1986, the courts wound up granting Interarms an exclusive license to produce AND sell the PP-series in the USA.

Interarms dropped the PP from production, since it wasn't selling well at that point, and finally introduced a US-made PPK. I understand that a blued US-made PPK was offered by Interarms, but not many were sold; most Interarms production was stainless.

S&W wound up with the PP-series license after Interarms declared bankruptcy in 1999 and was liquidated in 2001.

[RX-79G]

I was always under the impression that the Interarms US products were not reliable (SS versions).

I would buy a Manuhurin or Walther gun in a heartbeat.

[Ignition Override]

carguychris: I commend you on your knowledge of the PP/PPK.

If there is a temptation to buy a used PPK at a show, it is much less tempting now, even though the Sig 232 is a bit more difficult to conceal.