Hand Made Muzzle Loader

[Caboclo]

I got this gun as part of a collection, as did the previous owner. Neither of us knows anything about it. Looks rather crude; the name on the barrel was done with hammer and letter punches. There is a 7 digit serial number inscribed with an engraving tool underneath the ramrod. The barrel is rifled. Is it worth anything to anyone, or should I turn it in at the next gun buyback?

http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/rn...?sort=3&page=1

[James K]

My take is that it is a gussied up modern repro, probably Spanish. I may be wrong, and will be interested to see what others say.

I would first pull the barrel and check for proof marks.

Jim

[HiBC]

In answer to the question about origin...I don't know,either.
Quackenbush WAS a manufacturer of (as far as I know) lower grade .22 rifles ,the typical "boys rifle" of the time,approx turn of the century.

But I would not make the leap to say your rifle had anything to do with that company...unless a decendant of the Quackenbush family line crafted it.

As I look at it,it does not seem to show the patina of honest aging.

It does not look like its been around since 1850 or ?.

But there has long been a core of folks who enjoy burning black powder in muzzle loader rifles.

Some of them,like myself,decide to build their own rifle.

The movie "Jeremiah Johnson"ignited a surge in interest in muzzle loader rifles.

We had a great black powder rifle shop in town,"Cache la Poudre Rifleworks".
Unfortunately,the owner passed away...

He kept,among other things,stock blanks,custom barrels,locks and lock kits,and all the bits and pieces to build rifles.

There are also catalogues like "Track of the Wolf" which cater to muzzle loaders.

If I had to guess,and I COULD be wrong,I'd say a black powder enthusiast put some love into building his own personal custom rifle.

What happened next? Pure speculation,an estate sale.

Value? Subjective. Market would likely not be much,if my theory of origin is correct.
However,"gun buy back"means destruction.That rifle hardly represents any threat to anyone.I would never participate in such a program,even to game it.

Muzzle loaders are not typically heavily regulated.
I doubt it would be difficult to find some Father/Son or Daughter team that would greatly enjoy time together shooting that rifle.

I suggest,put a little effort into finding them.You might make a great Christmas for someone.

Which would make you feel better? Passing it to someone who will enjoy it,,or participating in an anti-gun political program?

The rifle LOOKS to me like it would be a good shooter,though it should be checked by a knowledgeable person or gunsmith.
I'd make someone happy.Just give it to them,before I would go "buy back"

[Hawg]

IMO somebody bought some period correct parts and made their own rifle but wasn't too hot at inletting or fitting and then skimped on the barrel. That cheek piece didn't come on a Spanish rifle or any of the so called Hawken repros and they didn't even try to smooth out the tool marks on the barrel which looks like it came from a Spanish kit gun.

[g.willikers]

Dennis Quakenbush has been a name long associated with air rifles, including large bore versions.
Different fellow, though.

[Pahoo]

The barrel is rifled. Is it worth anything to anyone, or should I turn it in at the next gun buyback?

I would never relegate this one to a buy-back program. Yes, regardless of what you are showing, there is value to this SideCocker. There could be a lot of speculation on it's origin but regardless, it is still in-the-spirit. I agree that it had it's beginnings during the M/l renaissance period of the late 70's or early 80's. ....

My swag on this is that it is a custom made but not a very good one. However, I have see a lot worse.
This one is so ugly, that it "Shines". .....

I wish you could have shown more of the muzzle and would ask you to check if there are any scribe marks on the muzzle face. Wondering what the bore looks like, as well ....

Save it and;
Be Safe !!!

[T. O'Heir]

Looks like a 'kit' gun. Too new looking to be anything else. Earl Quakenbush is likely just a previous owner's name.

[jaguarxk120]

It is a old CVA long rifle that someone made into a hawken. The nipple and drum give it away. The drum threads in the barrel across the breach plug locking the breach plug and barrel together. If you remove the barrel some where there will be a stamping "Jukker" noting the barrel manufacture in Spain.

The fore end is of lead of tin alloy just as the originals. As said, the name on the barrel is the guy that made the rifle.

You did not caliber say what the caliber is, generally the long rifles were 45
caliber, would be fun to shoot with about 40 grains FFFg and a patched round ball.

[Caboclo]

Thanks for all the replies. I uploaded a pic of the muzzle. The gun definitely is not very old. I agree with the kit theory; that's exactly what I was thinking.

Jaguar, what is a "CVA" gun?

Sounds like the Quakenbush tribe has been in the biz for quite a while.

So, who wants it? You pay the shipping, you can have it. It looks to be in pretty good shape; like so many guns on the market, it's probably only been to the range a couple times.

[James K]

The best known person of that name was inventor Henry Marcus Quackenbush (note spelling) (1847-1933), who made inexpensive single shot "boys" rifles in the early 20th century. One of his non-gun inventions was the nutcracker, and those made by his company bear the letters HMQ. As far as I know, the company is no longer in business (or at least does not make nutcrackers), but there are millions of HMQ nutcrackers still in use world wide and they are of mild interest to antique collectors.

Jim

[dahermit]

Dixie Gun Works has sold individual parts to make muzzle loaders for many years. This could be a "first attempt" at someone making/assembling their own muzzle loading rifle. But, that is just a guess based on the seemingly strange assortment of parts and the adornments.

[Hawg]

It is a old CVA long rifle that someone made into a hawken. The nipple and drum give it away.

No it doesn't. The drum breech has been around since the beginning of the percussion era and many suppliers of replica parts and historically accurate kits still sell them. CVA imported guns from Spain with a drum breech and Traditions still imports the same guns. I will agree with you that it is a Spanish barrel from the tool marks but to say it was a CVA because of the drum breech is ....well lets just say it's wrong.

[jaguarxk120]

The drum has machined flats for a wrench and the clean-out screw is modern machine screw type.

At the tang there is a joint indicating a patent breach, when the barrel is taken off the breach plug has a hook fitting into the tang socket.

As I've said the drum MUST be removed before the breach plug is unscrewed.

The markings at the muzzle are the "X" from a set of metal stamps.

CVA = Connecticut Valley Arms

The owner won't know anything more about the gun till the barrel is removed.

[Pahoo]

I uploaded a pic of the muzzle.

Well. I somewhat expected to see tool marks on the muzzle but not quite like these. Thanks for sharing. .....

Be Safe !!!

[Jim Watson]

If the bore is good, it would be a good hunting and plinking rifle.
Interesting that the bear inlay on the butt is pretty well done and the lock is not bad, but the off-side plate is just dreadful. Looks like it once had coins or medallions inlaid into the stock but somebody dug them out an filled the hole with apple crate wood.

I guess if you crossed your eyes and squinted, the grind marks on the barrel might look like Damascus. I bet a lot of the old boys didn't drawfile out the grind lines, either.

[HiBC]

I'd have to agree,it does seem to have a CVA "look" to it.But,I never owned a CVA.
During the post-Jeremiah Johnson days,T/C and CVA kits were on the shelves of a lot of retailers.
A lot of folks said "What the heck!!" and bought one,or received one as a Christmas gift,etc.
Most of these folks had no gunsmithing experience.Many had no sense of firearms aesthetics....And many were looking at personalizing their project in some way.
Kind of like after the movie "Easy Rider" and Harleys.

I confess some of my early inletting looks like I was assisted by a beaver.

If the hardware is sound,its really not a big deal to make a new stock.

There is an old Foxfire bookwhere Herschel House makes a rifle,step by step.

To quote PT Barnum,tastefully,"There is a hiney for every seat"
I found this on e-bay.I have no idea if it would fit.
It gives you something to look at.There is at least one more CVA "Hawken" stock there.(less $)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CVA-Hawken-M...4AAOSwo6lWM18a

[bedbugbilly]

I don't think this is a "kit gun" nor a "report" that's been re-worked. This rifle looks like it was customer built. You have to remember that folks have been building rifles all the way up through the years. Is it old? Who knows? I don't think it is an"original antique" but more likely a rifle made by the man who put his name on the top flat of the barrel. This could date anywhere from the early 1900s up to a few years ago. I wasn't able to bring up all of the photos but from what I saw, the builder did an excellent job pouring the nose cap, etc. The rifle may contain some original parts . This wasn't and isn't uncommon. I've built a number of rifles using original furniture, barrels, locks, etc. All one has to do is take a trip through the sheep sheds and the other trade tables at Friendship and you'll see "older rifles" that were made by folks who did it to enjoy the hobby.

Does it have value? Certainly it does. If the bore is halfway decent and it functions or is repairable . . . it would be worth good money to a person who wants to shoot a percussion cap rifle. The nice job on the nose cap and other features will make it worth more than just the run of the mill rifle. If you doubt that a well put together custom built rifle has value . . . just to to someplace like Track of the Wolf and see what the components will cost you to make a rifle today. It might not be a particular person's style of rifle . . . but somewhere out thee would be a person who would love it and pay the price for it.

[FrontierGander]

not a cva. The drum is incorrect for cva, lock is no where close to a cva, wood stock is not cva, if it were, it would be beechwood which has very obvious patterns I know very well as I am a big fan of the cva sidelocks. Secondly, if you check out that so called cva barrel, see how shallow the front sight dovetail is? Not cva!

Someone did a horrible job on the barrel, looks like they didnt even draw file it. Milling machine marks?

Its a neat rifle built from odds and ends. The ramrod thimbles look like theres epoxy holding them on from the shiny glare i see. Could just be oil, who knows.

[swathdiver]

Shoot it and enjoy it. Some fella made that and his ancestors had no appreciation for his talents and work and that's too bad.

I'm working to ensure that my goodies are passed down from generation to generation until the Lord returns.

[hartcreek]

I can pay for the shipping if you still have it.

[4V50 Gary]

I have a Markwell Arms "longrifle" that had a brass piece that simulated a patched stock. The real reason for the brass was to allow a shorter pieces of one to be used instead of a one piece stock. The brass was discarded and a rib soldered beneath the barrel. A pewter nose was poured.

The problem encountered was with the geometry of the stock. The ramrod hole is the stock was far below the rib, necessitating a spacer to be made so that the thimbles were aligned with the ramrod hole. This made the gun look rather hokey.

Anyway, either the rib is taller on that gun or the stock was made right to start with. I'm of the latter opinion. Conclusion? It's not a CVA that was customized but rather something built from scratch with some parts that may have come off a CVA rifle.

[Hawg]

Going back and looking at the pics again I'm of the opinion that two different people had a hand in building it. The stock work is excellent as is the poured nose cap. The lines of the cheek piece follow the wrist like it's supposed to not like on a modern rifle. So the stock is a custom build. It has a lot of historically accurate parts but maybe the bore in the original barrel was bad and the next owner put that thing on it and tried his hand at inletting. He was not very good.
The bear inlay was very well done. The side plate was not. The same person did not do both. The tang shows the same type of butchery and the breech faces don't match up well. I'd say originally it was a very nice rifle until somebody else got ahold of it.

[Caboclo]

Yeah, you're right, Hawg. One detail I forgot to show was the initials "CNM" inlaid on the bottom of the stock. Doesn't match up very well with Earl Quakenbush.

[Captchee]

Not a CVA , though there maybe some CVA parts like the RR pipes and trigger guard .
Nipple and drum say nothing . it’s a common drum with a nipple and flash cup screwed on .
Also not a CVA long rifle conversion as the stock has a cheek plate
The CVA MT rifle had a cheek plate .
I would also be to quick in proclaiming the barrel as Spanish made just by the tooling marks .
The only thing they tell us is that the barrel wasn’t draw filed
Lock is not a CVA possibly a Dixie gun works .
Frankly that’s what I think you have is a gun , built from parts , probably purchased through Dixie or built from parts from different rifles

[crankshaft]

Appears to be built by an amateur. The grain thru the wrist is all wrong.