Shooting antique firearms!?

banditt007 · February 3, 2007, 10:12 PM

So i'm interested in getting into black powder shooting. and wanted to start with a gun i've always lusted after...an 1800's black powder, percussion, SXS large bore shotgun.

With that being said, i've looked into both the reproductions and some originals. The reproductions are decent, but just dont fire me up like the originals do...i mean its over 100 years old!

So i read on one website where they said something like 'the gun is very nice, and we'd be tempted to shoot it, but being a demiscus(sp?) barrel, its a great wall hanger'

To be honest, i'm not one for WALL HANGERS! i want something to shoot. So with that said is it generally considered basically just off limits to fire these old shotguns? i mean really fire them, like go to the range..go hunting...figgure out various loads they like?

Assuming the gun is checked out and seems to be okay...is just old you know?

And is there any rule of thumb on what load is too much for them, like shot weight/powder charge ect?

I'm really going to be bummed out if all i'm stuck with in actual shooting these black powder shotguns are modern replicas

prob wouldnt even get into it then!

**4V50 Gary** · February 3, 2007, 10:38 PM

Magnaflux them first. If they pass muster, you might want to reproof them (see the Dixie Gun Catalog as it has an article on proofing) but be warned, you can destroy the gun if it doesn't withstand the charge. If it does survive, then you know what the maximum the gun can take.

Hafoc · February 3, 2007, 10:53 PM

The question is sort of like "How long is a piece of string?"

Damascus barrels are made up of strips of steel wrapped around a mandrel, heated to a glow, and hammered to weld them together. They're iffy at best.

Massad Ayoob, who Hath His Stuff Together on firearms subjects, wrote "There are still many antique shotguns out there with Damascus barrels, made of old fashioned twist steel. They cannot withstand the pressures of modern shotgun ammunition and can be expected to explode if fired with same. When I was young, the conventional wisdom was that Damascus shotguns could safely be fired with mild black powder handloads. Some experts today believe that the steel in these 19th and early 20th Century guns has deteriorated so severely that they are unsafe to fire with anything at all. This is the wisdom to go with. Consider a Damascus shotgun strictly a wall-hanger, not something to shoot." I wouldn't want to be the one to call this gentleman wrong. Still, it's your call; if you find an old Damascus-twist shotgun in great condition, and you want to have a gunsmith inspect it to see if it's safe, and then you want to risk firing it.. who knows?

Given the way the Damascus barrel was made, it has huge lengths of welding seams through it. If one of those welds isn't perfect, it would leave a way for air and moisture to get in and start rust in the interior of the barrel. It might still look good but be too weak even for black powder loads. Still, some people do shoot them.

If you give up on the Damascus shotguns, still, all is not lost. Some of the reproduction shotguns available today are very close replicas of Colt double-barrels. As replicas, they are visually the same as what Colt made back then.

There are also a lot of old shotguns that are NOT Damascus-barreled, especially from the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Human nature being what it was, people prized the Damascus barrels even when cast steel was coming in to use. Maybe they prized the Damascus barrel simply because it was more expensive-- not the first or last time people have been so foolish! This went to the point that some of the cast steel barrels made for shotguns were etched with a spiral pattern so that they would look like Damascus barrels.

And there are scads of old double barrels, with the style, features, and even the wear of an old shotgun, that are unabashedly made of solid steel. Due to the simplicity of the double barrel mechanism, it is not unusual for a true veteran to work properly, or be repaired to work properly.

I'd advise you to take a look at gun shows and see what you can find.

Of course any old gun you get, Damascus barreled or anything else, you should have inspected before you take it out and shoot it. Finding out your shotgun is just a wall hanger is bad-- but at least you'd still have eyes to see it and hands to handle it.

Hafoc · February 3, 2007, 10:54 PM

Magnaflux. Good idea, Gary.

Old Dragoon · February 4, 2007, 01:53 PM

Some of the older Shotguns have a "Damascus" finish too and are not Damascus at all. I just cut down an old Remington 1889 model and found that is was a Damascus finish on the exposed portion of the bbls, but when I took the ribs off the short piece of bbls I found that the tubes were steel. Damascus bbls were not finished on the outside where the ribs covered the bbls, but this was as smooth as a new baby's backside, so I know it isn't Damascus. it is a Grade 2 with Damascus finish. No engraving on the locks, but very good checkering on the wood. It is my CAS shotgun and I do use light loads, soon to be using light BP loads in Brass shells.

sundance44s · February 4, 2007, 06:51 PM

Charlie if you get ya some brass shot shells you won`t regret it ..I bought 4 boxes of the magnatech brass 12 ga ones from Cabelas a few years ago ...supper easy to load and clean ..and last I really don`t know how long shooting B/P only in them ...no telling . we are a bunch of brass pinchers anyway /// why leave empty shells all over a crime scene ..lol

RwBeV · February 5, 2007, 11:06 AM

Over the years I have shot lots of twisted steel barrel guns ALL with black powder. At the present time I shoot a WW Greener 10 gauge, a Hemingsway 12 gauge, and a Bridge Gun 16 gauge all are cartridge guns I also shoot a Mortimer 10 gauge muzzel loader. All of these guns are twisted steel other than the 16 gauge it has and etched pattern on fluid steel barrels. If the guns are in good shape there is no reason not to shoot them with reasonable black poweder loads. Magna-flux may or may not give true reading on laminated steels a lot of the time it will give a sub-surface indication because of the lamination, this does not mean that there is a crack in the steel its just two different metals joined togeather. If you want to shoot a gun with laminated barrels find a gunsmith that knows what he is doing on this type of gun and have it checked out if its safe go out and have fun with it. I just finished the entire waterfowl season with black powder and these guns I listed and had a ball. I did just a well as the guys using modern guns and had a heck of a lot more fun.

February 3, 2007, 10:12 PM	#1
banditt007 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 694	Shooting antique firearms!? So i'm interested in getting into black powder shooting. and wanted to start with a gun i've always lusted after...an 1800's black powder, percussion, SXS large bore shotgun. With that being said, i've looked into both the reproductions and some originals. The reproductions are decent, but just dont fire me up like the originals do...i mean its over 100 years old! So i read on one website where they said something like 'the gun is very nice, and we'd be tempted to shoot it, but being a demiscus(sp?) barrel, its a great wall hanger' To be honest, i'm not one for WALL HANGERS! i want something to shoot. So with that said is it generally considered basically just off limits to fire these old shotguns? i mean really fire them, like go to the range..go hunting...figgure out various loads they like? Assuming the gun is checked out and seems to be okay...is just old you know? And is there any rule of thumb on what load is too much for them, like shot weight/powder charge ect? I'm really going to be bummed out if all i'm stuck with in actual shooting these black powder shotguns are modern replicas prob wouldnt even get into it then!

February 3, 2007, 10:38 PM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,833	Magnaflux them first. If they pass muster, you might want to reproof them (see the Dixie Gun Catalog as it has an article on proofing) but be warned, you can destroy the gun if it doesn't withstand the charge. If it does survive, then you know what the maximum the gun can take. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 4, 2007, 06:51 PM	#6
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	Brass Shot Shells Charlie if you get ya some brass shot shells you won`t regret it ..I bought 4 boxes of the magnatech brass 12 ga ones from Cabelas a few years ago ...supper easy to load and clean ..and last I really don`t know how long shooting B/P only in them ...no telling . we are a bunch of brass pinchers anyway /// why leave empty shells all over a crime scene ..lol

February 3, 2007, 10:53 PM	#3
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	The question is sort of like "How long is a piece of string?" Damascus barrels are made up of strips of steel wrapped around a mandrel, heated to a glow, and hammered to weld them together. They're iffy at best. Massad Ayoob, who Hath His Stuff Together on firearms subjects, wrote "There are still many antique shotguns out there with Damascus barrels, made of old fashioned twist steel. They cannot withstand the pressures of modern shotgun ammunition and can be expected to explode if fired with same. When I was young, the conventional wisdom was that Damascus shotguns could safely be fired with mild black powder handloads. Some experts today believe that the steel in these 19th and early 20th Century guns has deteriorated so severely that they are unsafe to fire with anything at all. This is the wisdom to go with. Consider a Damascus shotgun strictly a wall-hanger, not something to shoot." I wouldn't want to be the one to call this gentleman wrong. Still, it's your call; if you find an old Damascus-twist shotgun in great condition, and you want to have a gunsmith inspect it to see if it's safe, and then you want to risk firing it.. who knows? Given the way the Damascus barrel was made, it has huge lengths of welding seams through it. If one of those welds isn't perfect, it would leave a way for air and moisture to get in and start rust in the interior of the barrel. It might still look good but be too weak even for black powder loads. Still, some people do shoot them. If you give up on the Damascus shotguns, still, all is not lost. Some of the reproduction shotguns available today are very close replicas of Colt double-barrels. As replicas, they are visually the same as what Colt made back then. There are also a lot of old shotguns that are NOT Damascus-barreled, especially from the late 1800s and early 1900s. Human nature being what it was, people prized the Damascus barrels even when cast steel was coming in to use. Maybe they prized the Damascus barrel simply because it was more expensive-- not the first or last time people have been so foolish! This went to the point that some of the cast steel barrels made for shotguns were etched with a spiral pattern so that they would look like Damascus barrels. And there are scads of old double barrels, with the style, features, and even the wear of an old shotgun, that are unabashedly made of solid steel. Due to the simplicity of the double barrel mechanism, it is not unusual for a true veteran to work properly, or be repaired to work properly. I'd advise you to take a look at gun shows and see what you can find. Of course any old gun you get, Damascus barreled or anything else, you should have inspected before you take it out and shoot it. Finding out your shotgun is just a wall hanger is bad-- but at least you'd still have eyes to see it and hands to handle it.

February 3, 2007, 10:54 PM	#4
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	Magnaflux. Good idea, Gary.

February 4, 2007, 01:53 PM	#5
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Some of the older Shotguns have a "Damascus" finish too and are not Damascus at all. I just cut down an old Remington 1889 model and found that is was a Damascus finish on the exposed portion of the bbls, but when I took the ribs off the short piece of bbls I found that the tubes were steel. Damascus bbls were not finished on the outside where the ribs covered the bbls, but this was as smooth as a new baby's backside, so I know it isn't Damascus. it is a Grade 2 with Damascus finish. No engraving on the locks, but very good checkering on the wood. It is my CAS shotgun and I do use light loads, soon to be using light BP loads in Brass shells.

February 5, 2007, 11:06 AM	#7
RwBeV Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 112	Over the years I have shot lots of twisted steel barrel guns ALL with black powder. At the present time I shoot a WW Greener 10 gauge, a Hemingsway 12 gauge, and a Bridge Gun 16 gauge all are cartridge guns I also shoot a Mortimer 10 gauge muzzel loader. All of these guns are twisted steel other than the 16 gauge it has and etched pattern on fluid steel barrels. If the guns are in good shape there is no reason not to shoot them with reasonable black poweder loads. Magna-flux may or may not give true reading on laminated steels a lot of the time it will give a sub-surface indication because of the lamination, this does not mean that there is a crack in the steel its just two different metals joined togeather. If you want to shoot a gun with laminated barrels find a gunsmith that knows what he is doing on this type of gun and have it checked out if its safe go out and have fun with it. I just finished the entire waterfowl season with black powder and these guns I listed and had a ball. I did just a well as the guys using modern guns and had a heck of a lot more fun.