Barnes triple shock for deer??

skoal3 · July 13, 2013, 06:40 PM

I was thinking about using the Barnes triple shock in my 7mm08 for deer this coming season, they seem to be accurate enough and I've heard some good things. I decided to shoot the walking target I built, out of AR400, from about 100 yards to have a little fun and I was pretty surprised to see the bullet went right through it. It is only 1/4 inch but I guarantee its a lot tougher than the hide of a deer. I don't see how you would get any expansion on a deer if it were around 100 yards or less, I'm sure at a greater distance it would be fine. Just looking for some other folks experiences.

**Unclenick** · July 13, 2013, 07:51 PM

I don't think the steel tells you much about expansion behavior in game. The interaction may be such that it inhibits expansion. You may make the hole then funnel the bullet through it actually swaging it to retain its generally oblong shape. Try lining up some plain old water jugs and see how far it penetrates before the holes in the jugs get bigger.

allaroundhunter · July 13, 2013, 07:58 PM

The Barnes triple shock x bullet (TSX), is one of the best deer bullets available...

But testing on steel wouldn't tell you that.

skoal3 · July 13, 2013, 08:54 PM

Well that makes me feel a little better. It wasn't really a test I was just gonna shoot at it for fun until that happened and I was kind of surprised to see it. I guess I'll have to put it a little farther away.

allaroundhunter · July 13, 2013, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoal3

Well that makes me feel a little better. It wasn't really a test I was just gonna shoot at it for fun until that happened and I was kind of surprised to see it. I guess I'll have to put it a little farther away.

No, AR400 steel is not suited for rifle rounds. Even if the bullet doesn't penetrate the steel, it will dent it and then you are looking at ricochet problems. If you want a steel target then get an AR500 target. They really are not that expensive.

jonathon1289 · July 13, 2013, 09:24 PM

I am loading Barnes tipped triple shock in my 30-06, have been able to get 3/4 inch 4 shot groups at 100 yards. I have shot a couple of bottles and they absolutely explode. I haven't shot a deer yet, this is fist year loading these bullets, but so far I like them better than Nosler Ballistic Tips.

skoal3 · July 13, 2013, 09:32 PM

What makes 500 better? Is it just harder? We don't have any of that at work but a bunch of 400 laying around so that's what I usually use. I also don't usually shoot steel with a rifle, its more for the handguns so I can hear if I hit anything.

Brian Pfleuger · July 13, 2013, 10:00 PM

Shooting steel tells you less than nothing about shooting an animal.

Search for "Barnes TSX recovered" and look at the pictures.

The T/TSX line is a phenomenal deer bullet. My personal experience is limited to 4 animals with them, but there are thousands of examples all over the internet.

They expand almost instantly and penetrate like nothing else I've ever seen.

Last year, I saw one shatter the right, rear hip of a good sized whitetail buck and penetrate diagonally at least through the left side lung. Very nearly, if not over, 3 feet of penetration.

I've never seen one recovered that wasn't a near perfect mushroom.

Savage99 · July 13, 2013, 10:38 PM

The solid copper X type bullets have been reported to be the slowest killers of deer by a gun writer.

He shot many deer with the X bullets and they ran further than when hit with normal bullets.

The reason is that the solid bullet does not fragment and therefore makes a smaller wound.

Of course if used carefully taking into consideration their difference then?

Why?

allaroundhunter · July 14, 2013, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skoal3

What makes 500 better? Is it just harder? We don't have any of that at work but a bunch of 400 laying around so that's what I usually use. I also don't usually shoot steel with a rifle, its more for the handguns so I can hear if I hit anything.

Yes, it is harder and much better suited to all types of bullet impacts.

Marco Califo · July 14, 2013, 01:03 AM

Quote:

reported to be the slowest killers of deer by a gun writer.

Who? Where? Do you have a link to the article?

Quote:

The reason is that the solid bullet does not fragment and therefore makes a smaller wound.

I am not convinced. I would like to see the analysis, and proof.

Quote:

Of course if used carefully taking into consideration their difference then?
Why?

Unleaded is required in a large area of California. That is why. I drew an Elk tag (Tule Elk, not the larger Roosevelt Elk) outside of the unleaded zone, but I may still use 168 gr Barnes tipped copper bullets.
I have not read any negative reviews of animals shot with Barnes copper bullets.

allaroundhunter · July 14, 2013, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savage99

The solid copper X type bullets have been reported to be the slowest killers of deer by a gun writer.

He shot many deer with the X bullets and they ran further than when hit with normal bullets.

The reason is that the solid bullet does not fragment and therefore makes a smaller wound.

Of course if used carefully taking into consideration their difference then?

Why?

And I have heard the exact opposite from anyone who has used a Barnes T/TSX... And my experiences also say the opposite.

Brian Pfleuger · July 14, 2013, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allaroundhunter

And I have heard the exact opposite from anyone who has used a Barnes T/TSX... And my experiences also say the opposite.

As have I, as does mine. It's funny, the Holy Grail of big game bullets is supposed to be one that expands reliably and doesn't fragment. Now they exist and they supposedly don't work well because they don't fragment?

**Unclenick** · July 14, 2013, 09:19 AM

Savage99,

The premise you've heard is confused. Fragmentation is not normally considered a positive for stopping speed and is the specific reason Sierra recommends against using their MatchKing bullets for hunting—they fragment.

When fragments come off a bullet, they leave it lighter (less retained weight) and therefore less able to penetrate well. The fragments themselves are generally light and sub-caliber, so they don't penetrate far or leave large wound channels behind them. This is why the hunting bullet industry has gone to a lot of trouble to avoid fragmentation by making hunting bullet jackets thicker than match bullet jackets, and it's also the reason for bonded cores and isolated core sections (Nosler Partitions), and making controlled expansion designs that don't open fully until after the bullet has slowed enough that fluid resistance doesn't tear the expanded petals off, etc.

I can believe the earliest X designs did not work as well as the current crop, and do seem to recall some failure to expand complaints. But Barnes has kept improving their product line, widening their useful impact velocity ranges, and I've not heard any complaints about the Triple Shock X line other than the usual accuracy gripes from the owners of rifles with inadequate twist rates to properly stabilize the solids, which have greater length per grain of weight. Bullet length is more important to rifling twist choice than bullet weight is.

hooligan1 · July 14, 2013, 09:48 AM

Jonathan what in the wild world of sports, is a Modeler Ballistic Tip?
I use the 130 grain TTSX's in my .270 winchester, it along with the 130 grain Accubond and Ballistic Tip from Nosler,,, Same poi at one hundred, and from what I've learned here on The Firing Line, is that the Barnes TTSX's perform dynamically on thin skinned game such as deer, antelope, elk, and such...I will be using it opener morning for sure...

allaroundhunter · July 14, 2013, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

As have I, as does mine. It's funny, the Holy Grail of big game bullets is supposed to be one that expands reliably and doesn't fragment. Now they exist and they supposedly don't work well because they don't fragment?

It certainly is funny. I was almost hoping that the post was a joke...

jonathon1289 · July 14, 2013, 05:03 PM

@Hooligan, meant Nosler... Auto correct on my phone, didn't catch it when hit submit.

flyguy958 · July 14, 2013, 09:31 PM

Barns TXS have preformed flawlessly in both my deer rifles, 30/06 and .243. Penetration is excellent and the wound channel is exceptional. I have not recovered any of the rounds to see expansion or weight retention. I have though recovered all the game within a short distance of the spot hit. I am sold on these bullets, and coming from a penny pincher that is saying something.

AllenJ · July 14, 2013, 10:32 PM

There seems to be two different schools of thought right now about hunting bullets. One says you need a bullet that expands, yet stays together for good penetration. The other says the bullet needs to fragment, dumping all its energy into the animal. Bullets that stay together include the Barnes Triple shock, a wonderful bullet in my opinion and a great killer of big game. In my guns they are very accurate and the elk I've killed with them all died just as quick or quicker than when I was using Nosler Partitions. The only draw back I've found with the Barnes bullets is that they have to scooting along at or above 1800 fps for reliable expansion. It has never been a problem for me but in your 7mm-08 you'll need to see at what distance that threshold is going to be for your gun.

Savage99 · July 14, 2013, 10:37 PM

A bullet that strikes an animals vitals and fragments will produce a larger wound and therefore the animal will die sooner.

However if one shoots an animal and expects considerable penetration to reach the vitals then that framenting bullet may fail.

This was proven by a noted gun writer and documented. It also follows my experience.

Here is a large buck that was shot at 280 yards with a 30-06 and the 155 gr Berger VLD bullet. The exit wound is big and the deer staggered a few feet and dropped dead.

The shot could not be taken until the deer turned broadside. A bullet with controlled expansion would have been better for that.

Marco Califo · July 14, 2013, 10:52 PM

Quote:

This was proven by a noted gun writer and documented.

Really? Where is it?
I am really unimpressed by this kind of unsupported statement you have made twice now in this thread. On the other hand, if you were adding some information that was both credible and new to me, then I would thank you.
Berger makes VLD for target shooting, and also for hunting. You do not say which you are referring to. Berger does not make copper bullets. So, I do not see the relevance of this to prove that Barnes TSX are not suitable for shooting large game. That deer does look dead to me.

Savage99 · July 14, 2013, 11:05 PM

I reported that the X bullets were the slowest killers of deer.

Not that they were unsuitable.

Of course if an X bullet hits an animal in the brain it might be a fast killer.

If a VLD bullet hits an animal going away it might be the slowest killer.

It's a beautiful day.

allaroundhunter · July 15, 2013, 12:58 AM

Quote:

I reported that the X bullets were the slowest killers of deer.

Unless you can back this up with evidence (and not, a guy told my aunt who told my cousin who told me) I am going to seriously doubt the validity of any future posts....

Qtiphky · July 16, 2013, 06:54 AM

I have used them in my 270 and have had wonderful results. Great accuracy and the animals shot have all been recovered right where they stood, if not within 20 yards. Never had a problem with them.

myfriendis410 · July 16, 2013, 09:46 AM

I've run into this before. On another forum someone posted a problem using a .300 Weatherby Magnum on hogs, using factory "X" bullets. During the course of the back and forth we found out he was talking about the old Barnes "X" and not the TSX. There's a big difference and the old "X" bullet certainly did have problems with barrel fouling and poor expansion in game. I would not be surprised that is what the unknown author was talking about. BTW: this same guy went to Africa and used TSX's to great effect in that same rifle and reported so later that year. He and his wife shot a bunch of stuff and most were DRT.

I've used the TSX and TTSX for years due to my locale. I now use 'em out of preference and when I hunt out of state that is my bullet of choice. I've recovered a couple but normally get complete pass-throughs, even with a .243 on big hogs. If your gun can shoot them (and some don't) it's a fantastic choice. My advice is to go light for caliber. Don't shoot a 160 in a 7 mm mag when you can shoot a 140, for example. I shoot the 140 TTSX in the 7 mm mag, the 168 TTSX in the .300 and the 150 TTSX in the .308.

July 13, 2013, 06:40 PM	#1
skoal3 Member Join Date: July 9, 2013 Posts: 27	Barnes triple shock for deer?? I was thinking about using the Barnes triple shock in my 7mm08 for deer this coming season, they seem to be accurate enough and I've heard some good things. I decided to shoot the walking target I built, out of AR400, from about 100 yards to have a little fun and I was pretty surprised to see the bullet went right through it. It is only 1/4 inch but I guarantee its a lot tougher than the hide of a deer. I don't see how you would get any expansion on a deer if it were around 100 yards or less, I'm sure at a greater distance it would be fine. Just looking for some other folks experiences.

July 13, 2013, 07:51 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I don't think the steel tells you much about expansion behavior in game. The interaction may be such that it inhibits expansion. You may make the hole then funnel the bullet through it actually swaging it to retain its generally oblong shape. Try lining up some plain old water jugs and see how far it penetrates before the holes in the jugs get bigger. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 13, 2013, 07:58 PM	#3
allaroundhunter Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2012 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 1,670	Re: Barnes triple shock for deer?? The Barnes triple shock x bullet (TSX), is one of the best deer bullets available... But testing on steel wouldn't tell you that.

July 13, 2013, 09:24 PM	#6
jonathon1289 Member Join Date: April 24, 2013 Location: Mid TN Posts: 26	I am loading Barnes tipped triple shock in my 30-06, have been able to get 3/4 inch 4 shot groups at 100 yards. I have shot a couple of bottles and they absolutely explode. I haven't shot a deer yet, this is fist year loading these bullets, but so far I like them better than Nosler Ballistic Tips. Last edited by jonathon1289; July 14, 2013 at 05:01 PM.

July 13, 2013, 10:00 PM	#8
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Shooting steel tells you less than nothing about shooting an animal. Search for "Barnes TSX recovered" and look at the pictures. The T/TSX line is a phenomenal deer bullet. My personal experience is limited to 4 animals with them, but there are thousands of examples all over the internet. They expand almost instantly and penetrate like nothing else I've ever seen. Last year, I saw one shatter the right, rear hip of a good sized whitetail buck and penetrate diagonally at least through the left side lung. Very nearly, if not over, 3 feet of penetration. I've never seen one recovered that wasn't a near perfect mushroom. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 13, 2013, 08:54 PM	#4
skoal3 Member Join Date: July 9, 2013 Posts: 27	Well that makes me feel a little better. It wasn't really a test I was just gonna shoot at it for fun until that happened and I was kind of surprised to see it. I guess I'll have to put it a little farther away.

July 13, 2013, 09:32 PM	#7
skoal3 Member Join Date: July 9, 2013 Posts: 27	What makes 500 better? Is it just harder? We don't have any of that at work but a bunch of 400 laying around so that's what I usually use. I also don't usually shoot steel with a rifle, its more for the handguns so I can hear if I hit anything.

July 13, 2013, 10:38 PM	#9
Savage99 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 567	The solid copper X type bullets have been reported to be the slowest killers of deer by a gun writer. He shot many deer with the X bullets and they ran further than when hit with normal bullets. The reason is that the solid bullet does not fragment and therefore makes a smaller wound. Of course if used carefully taking into consideration their difference then? Why?

July 14, 2013, 09:19 AM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Savage99, The premise you've heard is confused. Fragmentation is not normally considered a positive for stopping speed and is the specific reason Sierra recommends against using their MatchKing bullets for hunting—they fragment. When fragments come off a bullet, they leave it lighter (less retained weight) and therefore less able to penetrate well. The fragments themselves are generally light and sub-caliber, so they don't penetrate far or leave large wound channels behind them. This is why the hunting bullet industry has gone to a lot of trouble to avoid fragmentation by making hunting bullet jackets thicker than match bullet jackets, and it's also the reason for bonded cores and isolated core sections (Nosler Partitions), and making controlled expansion designs that don't open fully until after the bullet has slowed enough that fluid resistance doesn't tear the expanded petals off, etc. I can believe the earliest X designs did not work as well as the current crop, and do seem to recall some failure to expand complaints. But Barnes has kept improving their product line, widening their useful impact velocity ranges, and I've not heard any complaints about the Triple Shock X line other than the usual accuracy gripes from the owners of rifles with inadequate twist rates to properly stabilize the solids, which have greater length per grain of weight. Bullet length is more important to rifling twist choice than bullet weight is. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; July 14, 2013 at 09:29 AM.

July 14, 2013, 09:48 AM	#15
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Jonathan what in the wild world of sports, is a Modeler Ballistic Tip? I use the 130 grain TTSX's in my .270 winchester, it along with the 130 grain Accubond and Ballistic Tip from Nosler,,, Same poi at one hundred, and from what I've learned here on The Firing Line, is that the Barnes TTSX's perform dynamically on thin skinned game such as deer, antelope, elk, and such...I will be using it opener morning for sure... __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

July 14, 2013, 05:03 PM	#17
jonathon1289 Member Join Date: April 24, 2013 Location: Mid TN Posts: 26	@Hooligan, meant Nosler... Auto correct on my phone, didn't catch it when hit submit.

July 14, 2013, 09:31 PM	#18
flyguy958 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2009 Location: SC Posts: 200	Barns TXS have preformed flawlessly in both my deer rifles, 30/06 and .243. Penetration is excellent and the wound channel is exceptional. I have not recovered any of the rounds to see expansion or weight retention. I have though recovered all the game within a short distance of the spot hit. I am sold on these bullets, and coming from a penny pincher that is saying something. __________________ You can have your own opinion but you can't make up your own facts !

July 14, 2013, 10:32 PM	#19
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	There seems to be two different schools of thought right now about hunting bullets. One says you need a bullet that expands, yet stays together for good penetration. The other says the bullet needs to fragment, dumping all its energy into the animal. Bullets that stay together include the Barnes Triple shock, a wonderful bullet in my opinion and a great killer of big game. In my guns they are very accurate and the elk I've killed with them all died just as quick or quicker than when I was using Nosler Partitions. The only draw back I've found with the Barnes bullets is that they have to scooting along at or above 1800 fps for reliable expansion. It has never been a problem for me but in your 7mm-08 you'll need to see at what distance that threshold is going to be for your gun.

July 14, 2013, 10:37 PM	#20
Savage99 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 567	A bullet that strikes an animals vitals and fragments will produce a larger wound and therefore the animal will die sooner. However if one shoots an animal and expects considerable penetration to reach the vitals then that framenting bullet may fail. This was proven by a noted gun writer and documented. It also follows my experience. Here is a large buck that was shot at 280 yards with a 30-06 and the 155 gr Berger VLD bullet. The exit wound is big and the deer staggered a few feet and dropped dead. The shot could not be taken until the deer turned broadside. A bullet with controlled expansion would have been better for that.

July 14, 2013, 11:05 PM	#22
Savage99 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 567	I reported that the X bullets were the slowest killers of deer. Not that they were unsuitable. Of course if an X bullet hits an animal in the brain it might be a fast killer. If a VLD bullet hits an animal going away it might be the slowest killer. It's a beautiful day.

July 16, 2013, 06:54 AM	#24
Qtiphky Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge Posts: 568	I have used them in my 270 and have had wonderful results. Great accuracy and the animals shot have all been recovered right where they stood, if not within 20 yards. Never had a problem with them.

July 16, 2013, 09:46 AM	#25
myfriendis410 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Location: Lompoc California Posts: 274	I've run into this before. On another forum someone posted a problem using a .300 Weatherby Magnum on hogs, using factory "X" bullets. During the course of the back and forth we found out he was talking about the old Barnes "X" and not the TSX. There's a big difference and the old "X" bullet certainly did have problems with barrel fouling and poor expansion in game. I would not be surprised that is what the unknown author was talking about. BTW: this same guy went to Africa and used TSX's to great effect in that same rifle and reported so later that year. He and his wife shot a bunch of stuff and most were DRT. I've used the TSX and TTSX for years due to my locale. I now use 'em out of preference and when I hunt out of state that is my bullet of choice. I've recovered a couple but normally get complete pass-throughs, even with a .243 on big hogs. If your gun can shoot them (and some don't) it's a fantastic choice. My advice is to go light for caliber. Don't shoot a 160 in a 7 mm mag when you can shoot a 140, for example. I shoot the 140 TTSX in the 7 mm mag, the 168 TTSX in the .300 and the 150 TTSX in the .308.