454 Casull and 44 magnum comparison

[Model12Win]

The .454 is a better stopsman's caliber, but the .44 has less kick and comes in a lighter gun.

[jackmoser65]

If the OP is intending to load any .454 at all, he will have SRPs. Since primer cost is the same regardless of size, why would this have any effect on choice, especially when the OP is comparing .454 to .44? One should ask, does he have any .45 colt cases on hand? If he has to buy .45 colt cases just for reduced loads, again, why bother?

As I said, if you already have 45 components around but no 454 and no small rifle primers, then it might make sense to shoot it with 45 loads. There are certainly no drawbacks to doing so. Speaking from experience, I have lots of large rifle, large pistol and small pistol primers but ZERO small rifle. It would just be one more thing to have to stock up on and for what reason? I also have a bunch of 45's and piles of brass. Cases for the 454 would be one more thing I'd have to stock up on and for what reason? To repeat myself yet again, there are plenty of reasons to want to shoot only 45's in a 454 and no good reasons not to.

Wonder why Bob Baker advises against it then? Myself, I tend to listen more closely to experts on the subject than random internet posters. You most certainly are free to do differently.

Interesting choice of words. Bob Baker is a good guy but the warning is more for liability's sake than anything, to save those with no common sense from themselves. Like I said before, it only becomes an issue when you shoot enough 45 Colt to produce a carbon ring and then load it up with 65,000psi 454 loads. In which case, the cartridges will have to be forced into the chamber.

If one actually reloads for the big boomers like .454 and .460, they quickly find out that cases don't last forever when used at the upper end. I restrict my .460 cases to 5 loads at legitimate .460 pressures and then delegate them to the "reduced load" can.

If you were paying attention, the OP asked us about loading the 454 well under its maximum with a 300gr at 1100-1200fps given as an example. Your condescending comments about case life are irrelevant.

While I too can use .45 colt in my firearm, I have more than enough of these cases to load with reduced loads, that I don't need to have extra .45 colt brass on hand. I agre tho, that the .45 colt is an effective caliber. This is why I advise folks looking to buy a .454 or .460 and use it pretty much exclusively to shoot .45 colt, to just get a .45 colt.

You're talking about a Smith and Wesson 460 and the OP is talking about a Freedom Arms 454. The latter actually makes a great 45 Colt but the former, not so much. In this case, "just get a 45 colt" is a much more costly route to take and completely unnecessary. The OP can accomplish exactly what he wants with the gun in question, without undue expenditures such as extra cylinders or taking the time to find a less common 45 Colt version.


The fine folks here at TFL can take whatever advice they find the most credible, even if it is from a "random internet poster". Some of us "random internet posters" might actually know what we're talking about. How many FA 454's have you had? Those that don't know any better and can't think for themselves, should stick to what buck460 considers a proper "expert".

[RIDE-RED 350r]

An awful lot of what "works for you" and what "you want to do" and "what you may or may not wan to have on hand for reloading" in the above post...

Newsflash: What works for YOU and makes YOU happy might not accomplish the same for the next guy. Some people don't fret about needing another type of primer on hand at 4 bucks per 100....

Buck referenced the 460 because it and the 454 run almost the same pressure... His comments have merit whether you like it or not Jack.

You yourself preached in a past thread about how you can't count the ability of a 460 to shoot 45 Colt and 454 Casull as a plus for versatility due to the longer chambers not being very accurate with the shorter 45 Colt cartridges. And while I haven't even tried it with mine, I suspect you are probably right about that... But somehow 454 chambered pieces don't suffer this issue???? Which is it going to be Jack?

And now you can see into the mind of Bob Baker and inform us all of his true intent behind his recommendation against using 45 Colt in his 454 chambered revolvers??? Do what you want with your FA 454, but in my opinion it's bad form for anyone to advise another person to do the exact opposite of what the maker of the firearm recommends.

You seem like a pretty smart and knowledgable guy Jack, and you can frame an argument well. But your involvement in this thread is just more of the same trolling nonsense I have locked horns with you in the past about. You like 45 Colt and what a hot 45 Colt can do from a piece that can handle the "Ruger spec" loads?? Great! I do to! (Matter of fact, I anxiously await my year end bonus as I am buying a Winchester 94 Trapper in 45 Colt that belonged to my now deceased uncle and I can't wait to cook up some loads for it.) You don't like 454 and 460??? Fine, no problem here, don't buy one. Just quit talking down to people who do, especially when you admitted in the past to having very limited experience with the 460 you claim to know so much about. And yes you do, don't even try to say you don't.


By the by, if I intended to only use 45 Colt and wanted them loaded warm, I would just get a solid 45 Colt chambered piece and call it a day.


"And that's all I got to say about that" - Forrest Gump

[44 AMP]

A point about loading .45 Colt (ruger only, or standard) loads in .454 cases...

Yes, .454 cases will avoid the dreaded carbon ring. (and while I don't have a .454 I do have .44s and .357s and have never had an issue with that, personally)

And yes, I can see where case life at top end levels is shorter (as it is with EVERYTHING) so you should get longer case life in .454 brass loading .45 Colt equivalent.

However, even lighter loads DO use up case life. .454 brass is twice the cost of .45 Colt, (or more), do they last twice as long with .45 Colt loads? I don't know, but I doubt it. Longer, probably, but twice as long?

So, is using up the case life of the more expensive brass, when your loads can be done with the cheaper .45 Colt brass, in order to avoid the carbon ring issue, is it worth it to you??

Wouldn't be to me, but everyone has their own parameters. If I were to shoot only .45 colt loads, in a .454, I'd use .45Colt brass and save the expensive .454 for where its needed. Of course, since I already have half a dozen .45 Colt revolvers, I have .45 Colt brass on hand, so that would tend to color my thinking a bit, perhaps...

[jackmoser65]

The bottom line here is that the OP can do exactly what he proposed to do and he can do so with either 45 or 454 brass. He has all the facts necessary to make his decision.

An awful lot of what "works for you" and what "you want to do" and "what you may or may not wan to have on hand for reloading" in the above post...

Newsflash: What works for YOU and makes YOU happy might not accomplish the same for the next guy. Some people don't fret about needing another type of primer on hand at 4 bucks per 100....

First of all, there is no need for hostility or sarcasm. Secondly, I am trying to answer the OP's question with some degree of precision. I'm also throwing out options, not telling anyone what to do.

Buck referenced the 460 because it and the 454 run almost the same pressure... His comments have merit whether you like it or not Jack.

My point was that the comments are irrelevant because the OP expressed no desire to run 454 at 65kpsi.

You yourself preached in a past thread about how you can't count the ability of a 460 to shoot 45 Colt and 454 Casull as a plus for versatility due to the longer chambers not being very accurate with the shorter 45 Colt cartridges. And while I haven't even tried it with mine, I suspect you are probably right about that... But somehow 454 chambered pieces don't suffer this issue???? Which is it going to be Jack?

I'm glad you're paying attention, you might learn something. The main issue is the length of the jump. A 454 is only slightly longer than the 45. The bullet transitions from the cartridge case to the chamber mouth before the base clears the case. There is no freebore, the bullet is always supported. Plus, I know from personal experience that Freedom Arms 454's shoot extremely well with 45's. I also know from highly experienced friends that the 460 does not do so well with 45's. A 460 chamber is very long and a 45 bullet has enough room to clear the case and freebore before it gets to the chamber mouth. How many FA 83s have you owned?

The second part of that is that a Freedom Arms 454 is the same exact size as a 45 Colt, 44 Mag or 41 Mag. While an X frame is significantly larger and heavier than any 45.

And now you can see into the mind of Bob Baker and inform us all of his true intent behind his recommendation against using 45 Colt in his 454 chambered revolvers??? Do what you want with your FA 454, but in my opinion it's bad form for anyone to advise another person to do the exact opposite of what the maker of the firearm recommends.

I don't have to read his mind, his words works quite well. It is done for the reasons I outlined and most anyone who knows much about these guns understands this.

Newsflash: What works for YOU and makes YOU happy might not accomplish the same for the next guy. Some people don't fret about needing another type of primer on hand at 4 bucks per 100....

People who own and shoot FA's typically don't "fret" about the cost of primers. I don't know about you but I stock primers by the case and I shoot a lot. Maybe stocking another primer type means a couple of $4 packs but it's a different story for me. Like I said, it was a suggestion, a hypothetical, an available option. I see no reason to stock up on small rifle primers if only for one cartridge, for the reasons outlined, when I can just easily do exactly what I want to do with components already on hand. You guys are going to a lot of effort to comply with a liability warning that is a non issue. Most manufacturers also warn against handloads, are you going to so blindly heed that one?

You seem like a pretty smart and knowledgable guy Jack, and you can frame an argument well. But your involvement in this thread is just more of the same trolling nonsense I have locked horns with you in the past about.

Trolling? Have you actually read the thread? The OP asked a question about whether his plan would work. I answered with a resounding YES. Not from internet wisdom. Not from Google. From actual experience in doing exactly what he wants to do. Has nothing to do with you or anyone else and I don't know why you feel the need to have a problem with it.

Locked horns? Funny, I don't remember that.

You like 45 Colt and what a hot 45 Colt can do from a piece that can handle the "Ruger spec" loads??

I'm not a fanboy and you don't know what I like. I don't get bent out of shape or have emotional outbursts. I don't have pet guns or cartridges that I feel the need to vehemently defend. I judge based on merit and purpose.

You don't like 454 and 460??? Fine, no problem here, don't buy one. Just quit talking down to people who do, especially when you admitted in the past to having very limited experience with the 460 you claim to know so much about. And yes you do, don't even try to say you don't.

Everything has its purpose. The 454 is a fine cartridge and it has a purpose. Just so happens that its purpose does not fit my needs but make no mistake, I have been there and done precisely that. The 460 makes no sense from a practical standpoint but that's off topic for this discussion.

Just quit talking down to people who do...

What are you talking about? You seem to have taken a comment completely out of context and decided to get your panties in a wad over it. Relax, I didn't spit on your dog.

By the by, if I intended to only use 45 Colt and wanted them loaded warm, I would just get a solid 45 Colt chambered piece and call it a day.

In case you didn't notice, the OP is asking about a Freedom Arms 454. Which, as he said in the original post, is much more common than any other chambering.

[jackmoser65]

Yes, .454 cases will avoid the dreaded carbon ring. (and while I don't have a .454 I do have .44s and .357s and have never had an issue with that, personally)

Excellent post and I agree.

The issue with the FA's is that they have a very tight, minimum spec chamber. If you get a carbon ring from shooting 45's in a 454, it can actually affect chambering a 454 cartridge. What 'can' happen is that the case does not have enough room to expand the mouth when the bullet exits the case. This can cause a dangerously high pressure situation. When you're already running 65kpsi in a tight chamber, there is no wiggle room. This is not an issue in other guns for two reasons. A) they're not running 65kspi and B) they usually have more generous chamber dimensions.

With light to moderate loads, case life is exemplary with either case. The tight chambers of an FA prevent the cases from expanding too much and as expected, they tend to crack at the case mouth first. I just see no reason to fool with the 454 unless you're using its full potential. Using 45 brass also allows a little more overall cartridge length with heavyweight cast bullets. I load mine up to 50kpsi or custom five shot Ruger levels, depending on use but tend to stay much lower than that. Once you get a 360gr up to 1300fps, there's little need for much more.

PS, the above did not come from Google.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by jackmoser65:

First of all, there is no need for hostility or sarcasm.

I agree, but some folks need to practice what they preach.....

Originally posted by jackmoser65:

The fine folks here at TFL can take whatever advice they find the most credible, even if it is from a "random internet poster". Some of us "random internet posters" might actually know what we're talking about. How many FA 454's have you had? Those that don't know any better and can't think for themselves, should stick to what buck460 considers a proper "expert".

No hostility or sarcasm there, eh? As far as who is the expert on .454, you or Bob Baker. Bob Baker is the current owner of Freedom Arms. The Op is looking at a revolver from Freedom Arms. I 'm gonna guess the owner/CEO would know more about his products than any random internet poster, especially since he is a "hands on" CEO of a small semi-custom gun company. Dick Casull was an original partner in the company and the model 83 designed around his cartridge. Casull had been working on the caliber for 30 years before the Firearm was introduced in 1983(thus the model 83 designation). Previously he couldn't find a gun maker to build a revolver capable of being reliable with his creation. This would tell me that the Baker(and Freedom Arms) would be considered a much more proper expert than "random internet posters". You are correct Jack, folks should take whatever advice they find most credible.

Originally posted by jackmoser65:

Have you actually read the thread? The OP asked a question about whether his plan would work.

Actually the OP asked a coupla things...

With the load I proposed would the recoil be comparable in the 454 Casull versus the 44 magnum?

...to which I replied,

"I believe a 310 gr bullet moving @ 1200 fps outta a .454 will have more felt recoil than a standard 240 gr load outta a .44 mag if shooting a firearm of the same approximate weight."

He then asks,

Is that a big difference? What is significantly more expensive in reloading the 454 Casull over the 44 magnum, the brass, bullets, primers, or all of it?

My response again was in reply to his question, cost difference between .454 and .44 mag. No where has he ever asked about .45 Colt. While anyone knows.45 Colt can be shot outta most .454s, it is still s different caliber and thus a different cost factor. As has been noted, whether or not it save monies and makes sense to load .45 Colt solely for a .454 firearm is subjective. As are many of the other responses many have made.

Regardless of how little you respect my opinion Jack and how much you think yours is worth, they are still just that...opinions. My effort was to help the OP and answer his questions about .44 and .454. You seem to want to make this another pissing match about, who knows what.

Subjective as they are, I still stand by my previous statements that the OP would probably be better served with a .44 mag, even if the model he is looking at is harder to find and costs a tad more on the used market. Same goes for the statement about buying a .454 Firearm to shoot only .45 Colt loads from, even Ruger Only loads. Gonna shoot .45s, get a .45. Again anyone that thinks they are going to alternate .45 Colt and legitimate .454 loads in the same firearm and have them shoot to the same POA need to rethink.

As for how irrelevant talking loading .460 is to .454, it is no more irrelevant than the .454/.45 Colt discussion. Much larger difference between .454 and .45 Colt than there is between .454 and .460, As far as I'm concerned, between .454 and .460, there is little or no appreciable difference between the cartridges and their performance, the major difference is the platform they are chambered in and how those platforms shoot. Again, I chose the .460 over .454 because of the difference in the platforms. I agree with the OP in his assertion that the platform(heavy recoil) is why one finds so many .454s on the used market. Add to this the high cost of factory ammo.

You have much to contribute here Jack, it certainly would be more readily accepted by most if it was done in a more positive manor. This goes for all of us.

[jackmoser65]

No hostility or sarcasm there, eh?

You started us down this road with your condescending "random internet poster" comment. Which seems to be your modus operandi. It was uncalled for and this kind of crap is why I participate on forums like this very infrequently.

Thanks for the history lesson. You misunderstand. I'm not claiming to know more than Baker. I'm just claiming to actually have more experience than you two "random internet posters". I've been shooting FA's for about 30 years and am well acquainted with their history and have been in the presence of Dick Casull, who actually designed the model 83 and Bob Baker many times. Of course, neither is going to openly recommend shooting 45's in one of their 454's for all the reasons I've now mentioned two or three times but if you guys, who have never owned one, want to stick to what is in the manual with zero understanding of the reasons behind it, that is your prerogative. In reality and speaking from 30yrs experience, FA 454's make fine 45's and all one has to do is clean the chambers when going from the short case to the long case. All fact, not conjecture from a "random internet poster".

Subjective as they are, I still stand by my previous statements that the OP would probably be better served with a .44 mag, even if the model he is looking at is harder to find and costs a tad more on the used market.

He may be but I'll let him make that decision. That said the 454 will offer a much broader range of capability than any 44 mag, should he decide to do so in the future. There are no affordable used FA 44's because they make very few of them. A 454, which he apparently already has a line on, is a much more affordable option. There are no downsides to this whatsoever so I really don't understand the argument at all.

Again anyone that thinks they are going to alternate .45 Colt and legitimate .454 loads in the same firearm and have them shoot to the same POA need to rethink.

Who said anything about doing that?

You seem to want to make this another pissing match about, who knows what.

I didn't want that at all. You're the one who seems to want to police all the responses.

As for how irrelevant talking loading .460 is to .454, it is no more irrelevant than the .454/.45 Colt discussion.

You completely missed the point and decided to get testy because you thought I insulted your pet cartridge. That was a response to your condescending comments about case life for those who "actually reloads for the big boomers like .454 and .460".

You have much to contribute here Jack, it certainly would be more readily accepted by most if it was done in a more positive manor. This goes for all of us.

Then maybe you should hold back the condescending crap. If you disagree with something, debate the statement with facts and informed opinion. Rather than making it personal by dismissing it as nonsense from a "random internet poster". In the end, that's what we all are, here anyway.

[44 AMP]

well, regardless of who knows what better and what kind of match nobody wants, this thread has gone there, and so, closed.

Thanks, so much...gentlemen....