Next step up from a .22LR

dakota.potts · January 20, 2014, 10:22 PM

My little brother was asking. He has a Ruger 10/22 that he's learning basic marksmanship with and has been talking about moving up to another.

We were in Gander the other day and he pulled out a .223 box and asked if that would be the next step.

What do you guys think? Something low recoil that will be more accurate at a longer range than the .22LR, but also cheaper than the .308 which we can't often afford to shoot.

Something like .17 HMR/WSM? .22 Magnum? Or is a centerfire round appropriate?

He's 12 now and doesn't have a whole lot of trouble with a .308 but we don't want something that's going to start a flinch. He also has a problem with itchy trigger finger, so a bolt action might be good

L_Killkenny · January 20, 2014, 10:31 PM

You don't state any purpose but in general the .223 is the next logical step from the .22lr. You are also correct that between those falls the rimfire magnums. Some might consider those the next logical step but I find both pretty much niche rounds. Great when you need but not that great if you can use something else.

Then there are the other small centerfire with the .22 Hornet leading that pack. Guns are limited and ammo will be less available. Not much if any reason to choose them over the .223.

But at 12 he's got lots of room to grow. Don't be in too much of a hurry to move up from the .22lr. It's a great round for inexperienced as well for experienced. Just some tend to forget that as they supposedly grow up.

chris in va · January 20, 2014, 10:51 PM

The 223 is a natural 'step up'. Low recoil, flat shooting and available anywhere. I have a CZ in 7.62x39 but wouldn't mind one in 223.

Don't discount the single shot rifles either. They're half the cost and have the advantage of switching barrels for even less $$.

big al hunter · January 20, 2014, 10:56 PM

I would say anything between 223 and 243 would be a good step up. Added noise but not so much recoil to cause flinching. If he is gearing up for hunting in the near future you should look at what he might hunt for. Base the choice on that, especially when $ is tight. Nothing burns more ammo money than a new rifle

DannyB1954 · January 20, 2014, 11:08 PM

22 mag and 17HMR are not exactly inexpensive ammo. Almost the cost of center fire. The performance over good lr ammo isn't that great. I would go 223. or 9mm carbine.

Snyper · January 21, 2014, 12:03 AM

If you want a rifle to hunt deer, I'd get at least a .243
If you just want something fun to shoot, get the .223

dakota.potts · January 21, 2014, 01:48 AM

No hunting in our familiar - although my dad and I talked about going out and getting a turkey for Thanksgiving this year like this dad used to do.

We're members of a private range that goes out to 200 yards and they're building a 300 yard bay. The long range ones are busy morning to close to we've never shot past 100. The .22 can do that for sure, but I think it's about learning to handle a little more power but also probably just about having a little fun. My .22 would have bored me when I was 12 -- it's almost boring now how accurate it is

He's already talked about wanting this AK and that handgun, so it's about fun but in a weapon that has the ability to teach more about marksmanship.

Againstthewind · January 21, 2014, 02:25 AM

I don't know if it helps, but I had a little bit of a flinch when I was twelve and shooting the 30-06. We all went from .22 to 30-06, not sure if its the best but its what he had. My dad put a penny on the end of the rifle and would either have me dry fire or live fire (but I wouldn't know which) trying to keep the penny on the barrel. It took my mind of the recoil and seemed to work for me. I need to try it with his .338 Mag that makes me flinchy now.

There are all kinds of things that you can do with a .22 to keep from being bored. We would draw pictures on the target, shoot candles out, split bullets with on a knife, etc. Hopefully there is some place to do that kindof thing safely, too. Range shooting could get boring without a competition or something.

bamaranger · January 21, 2014, 03:30 AM

That's what we did with bamaboy. In no time he was breaking clay targets on the berm at 100 yd plus.

My only reservation is that I would go with a bolt rifle of some kind rather than an AR or semi platform, his 10/22 duly noted.

MarkDozier · January 21, 2014, 04:06 AM

You need to get your brother into the junior small bore program somewhere. It will open a world of shooting to him and teach him priceless skills.

alex0535 · January 21, 2014, 08:27 AM

If I was a 12 year old that wanted to shoot a bunch with a caliber that had more umph than a .22, the CZ 527 in 7.62x39 would look really nice if one could be found. The ammunition is affordable, the rifle is small, light, and a quality firearm he will enjoy for many years.

A .223 bolt action would seem the next logical step up, ammunition prices are not the greatest on it, but a lot milder than the .308 and a little cheaper to feed.

bt380 · January 21, 2014, 10:01 AM

If your stepping up to a 17hmr, they struggle slight winds. If you et one, get the Savage 93R17 BTVS 17 HMR. It has a better barrel for target shooting than some of the other Savage 17's. The Marlin has great reviews and goes neck-neck with Savage. The Savage is about $400 unless you buy the F version for about $200. The magnum versions are a bit more spendy and ammo is harder to find. The 17 Hornet has faster ballistics but still can't get past the wind issue and cost more in general.
-
The 223 is a great option, especially if you get into reloading.

Brian Pfleuger · January 21, 2014, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyB1954

22 mag and 17HMR are not exactly inexpensive ammo. Almost the cost of center fire. The performance over good lr ammo isn't that great. I would go 223. or 9mm carbine.

17HMR and 22mag ammo isn't remotely close to center fire ammo price and they both at least double the energy and more like triple or quadruple the range of a 22lr.

In most cases, 223 ammo is at least close to double the cost of HMR ammo. $12-$14/50 versus minimum of roughly $20-22/50.

The "next step" above 22lr depends on how big of a step you want to take. The HMR quadruples the ranges, adds minimal noise and essentially no recoil. Stepping up to center fire of just about any variety gives you at least 10x or more the range and can add anywhere from very little to extreme recoil.

As much as I personally have zero interest in .223, it is incredibly popular, low recoil, available everywhere, low priced to premium ammo and almost endless firearms options from single shot break open to semi-auto (full auto if you've got $$$$ and time). If cost of shooting while maintaining options for real precision and long range is a priority, .223Rem is the answer, particularly when you're talking about a beginner.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · January 21, 2014, 11:13 AM

I would suggest a single shot rifle. H&R Handi-Rifle for instance. H&R is a reasonably inexpensive well built rifle. Although ammo for any center fire caliber these days isn't inexpensive._{keep that in mind when making your selection}_There's some Handi-Rifles available with or without barrel sights and its offered in Youth Models also. FWIW: Its a nice center fire rifle for a young man just starting to get involved in the Shooting Sports. (See the Link provided.)

http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/rifles/handirifle.asp

Bozz10mm · January 21, 2014, 11:27 AM

If you are not going to be doing competitive target shooting, I would suggest your next step up should be an AR such as the M&P 15 Sport, or DPMS Sportical.

The fun factor would be huge over a bolt action.

Jim243 · January 21, 2014, 11:51 AM

Quote:

In most cases, 223 ammo is at least close to double the cost of HMR ammo. $12-$14/50 versus minimum of roughly $20-22/50.

I think Brian has the right answer to your question. If it is a mater of just shooting targets then the cheaper the ammo the more your brother will be able to enjoy shooting. The 22 mag is good out to 200-250 yards without any problems.

If however hunting small game, is in the picture the 22 mag will do the job very well. However, you may want to consider getting him a shotgun in 410 gauge. Ammo is not that expensive for it, clay targets are cheap and it does wonders in taking small game like rabbits. The only down side is that the range is limited to 50 to 100 yards with one.

If there is a chance of him getting into longer range shooting like the 200 to 300 yards that you mentioned, then the 223 would be the choice to get and surplus ammo is still available and reasonably priced.

It is going to be a mater of where you want to go with his shooting, while I would still recommend the 22 mag the 223 will be a bit less boring because of the recoil.

Jim

The example I would use is that CARS are cheap, it is the gasoline to drive them that is expensive. The same thing is true of rifles, rifles are cheap it's all the bullets that you put through them that gets expensive.

DannyB1954 · January 21, 2014, 02:40 PM

Quote:

17HMR and 22mag ammo isn't remotely close to center fire ammo price and they both at least double the energy and more like triple or quadruple the range of a 22lr.

I don't have a 22WMR, so the price info I got was from a web search. Unless you are a reloader, steel case ammo works just fine. When you are comparing the power difference between 22lr and 22 wmr, then look at the 223. The power increase of the wmr is relatively low compared to the price increase.

From Gunbot.net
0 round box - 17 HMR Hornady 17 grain V-max ammo 83170 4 hours ago $0.26/rd [$12.95] in stock Hunting [SGAmmo]
500 round brick - 17 HMR Hornady 17 grain V-max ammo 83170 *SOLD OUT* 4 hours ago $0.26/rd [$129.50] out of stock Hunting [SGAmmo]
Remington Premier .17 HMR Magnum Rimfire Ammo 28464/PR17HM1 5 hours ago $0.40/rd [$19.99] in stock [Bass Pro]
CCI .17 HMR 17 Gr. Speer TNT Jacketed Hollow Point- Box of 50 9 hours ago $0.25/rd [$12.50] in stock Hunting [Selway Armory]
.17 HMR Remington Premier Gold Box 17 Grain 2550 fps 50 Round Box *SOLD OUT* 12 hours ago $0.54/rd [$26.85] out of stock [CheaperThanDirt]
Winchester .17 HMR Ammunition SUP 17HMR 17GR V-MAX 18 hours ago $0.26/rd [$12.99] in stock Hunting [Cabelas]
Winchester .17 HMR Ammunition 17HMR 20GR GMPNT 18 hours ago $0.26/rd [$12.99] in stock [Cabelas]
Remington Premier 17 HMR V-MAX 17 grn 50 rnd/box $0.38/rd [$18.99] in stock Hunting [Ammo Supply Warehouse]
CCI .17 HMR 17gr TNT 50rds 0053 $0.26/rd [$12.99] in stock Hunting [PSA]
Hornady 17 HMR V-MAX 17 grn 50 rnd/box $0.26/rd [$12.99] in stock Hunting [Ammo Supply Warehouse]
Hornady 17 HMR V-MAX 17 grn 500 rnd/box $0.25/rd [$125.00] in stock Hunting [Ammo Supply Warehouse]
Hornady V-Max 17 HMR 17gr BT 50 Rnds $0.28/rd [$13.95] in stock Hunting [RareAmmo]
Remington Premier .17 HMR 17 Gr. Hornady V-Max- Box of 50 $0.33/rd [$16.25] in stock Hunting [Selway Armory]
CCI Varmint Ammunition .17 HMR 17 Gr. Poly-Tip V-Max $0.30/rd [$14.99] in stock Hunting [Gander Mountain]
CCI/Speer .22 Rimfire Ammunition .22 WMR MAXI-MAG 8 hours ago $0.26/rd [$12.99] in stock [Cabelas]
CCI Target And Plinking Ammunition .22 Win Mag 40 Maxi-Mag TMJ 50 *SOLD OUT* 15 hours ago $0.26/rd [$12.99] out of stock TMJ [Gander Mountain]
.22 Magnum Speer Gold Dot Personal Protection JHP 40 Grain 50 Round Box 1050 fps 954 *SOLD OUT* 15 hours ago [B]$0.35/rd[/B] [$17.40] out of stock SelfDefense [CheaperThanDirt]
Armscor Prec. 22 Magnum (WMR) 40 grn JHP 500 rd/brick $0.36/rd [$180.00] in stock SelfDefense [Ammo Supply Warehouse]
CCI(SHOTSHELL).22 WMR MAG (SHOT) 20cnt 20rds $1.15/rd [$22.95] in stock [Ammobank]

Tulammo TA223550 TULAMMO 223 Remington/5.56 Nato FMJ 55 GR 20Box/50Case *SOLD OUT* 22 hours ago $0.27/rd [$5.44] out of stock SteelCase [Firearms for Sale]
.223 Rem. TulFMJ 55 Grain 20 Round Box 3241 fps Steel Cased Polymer Coated 20 Round Box TA223550 $0.29/rd [$5.79] in stock SteelCase [CheaperThanDirt]
WPA (WOLF) .223 55grn FMJ 20rd Box *SOLD OUT* 23 hours ago $0.29/rd [$5.79] out of stock SteelCase [AimSurplus]
Wolf POLYFORMANCE .223 Rem FMJ 55 grn. FMJ 500 rd/case $0.30/rd [$150.99] in stock SteelCase [Ammo Supply Warehouse]
500 rds. Wolf .223 55 Grain FMJ Ammo $0.30/rd [$151.99] in stock SteelCase [Sportsman's Guide]
Wolf Polyformace .223REM 55GR FMJ, 20rd. Box $0.30/rd [$5.95] in stock SteelCase [AGS Armarment]
Colt .223 Rem 62gr FMJ 500 Rnds $0.30/rd [$149.95] in stock SteelCase [RareAmmo]
MFS .223 Rem 55gr FMJ 500 Rnds $0.30/rd [$149.95] in stock SteelCase [RareAmmo]
TULA AMMO 223REM FMJ TA223550 20 BOX $0.30/rd [$5.99] in stock SteelCase [Trop]
223 Remington (5.56x45mm) 55 gr FMJ Wolf WPA Polyformance Ammo Case (500 rds) $0.30/rd [$149.99] in stock SteelCase [TheArmory]
223 5.56x45 Ammo 55gr FMJ Wolf WPA Military Classic 20 Round Box 8 hours ago $0.30/rd [$5.99] in stock SteelCase [Ammunition Store]
223 5.56x45 Ammo 55gr FMJ Wolf WPA Military Classic 500 Round Case 8 hours ago $0.30/rd [$149.99] in stock SteelCase [Ammunition Store]
223 5.56x45 Ammo 55gr FMJ Wolf WPA Polyformance 20 Round Box 8 hours ago $0.30/rd [$5.99] in stock SteelCase [Ammunition Store]
223 5.56x45 Ammo 55gr FMJ Wolf WPA Polyformance 500 Round Case 8 hours ago $0.30/rd [$149.99] in stock SteelCase [Ammunition Store]

zukiphile · January 22, 2014, 11:49 AM

Quote:

I don't have a 22WMR,...

I did, but sold it because I wasn't going to pay the same for that as I would for .223, nine cents a round back then.

However, I liked my rifle and the round. If you shoot outside at distances beyond 150m, you can hit reliably and effectively and not have to wear ears, much as you might with a 22lr.

I wouldn't do that with a .223.

g.willikers · January 22, 2014, 12:11 PM

How about a pistol caliber lever action rifle?
Lots more power, not too much recoil, and what kid doesn't like a cowboy gun.
The suggestions to have him get involved in a .22 training or competition event is probably more important and entertaining than just getting another plinking gun.

L_Killkenny · January 22, 2014, 08:11 PM

Sorry Brian, I don't know where you got your numbers at but they aren't even remotely accurate. By your numbers the HMR would have chip shot range of 300-400 yards and the .22M would be a certified deer gun. In reality the HMR is more like double the range (200 yards) on small critters and paper. The .22M has about a 50 yard trajectory and power advantage.

Sure you can stretch their ranges, heck I'll stretch a .22LR out to 200 yards, but in no way do the rimfire magnums come anywhere close to the advantages you give them.

January 20, 2014, 10:22 PM	#1
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	Next step up from a .22LR My little brother was asking. He has a Ruger 10/22 that he's learning basic marksmanship with and has been talking about moving up to another. We were in Gander the other day and he pulled out a .223 box and asked if that would be the next step. What do you guys think? Something low recoil that will be more accurate at a longer range than the .22LR, but also cheaper than the .308 which we can't often afford to shoot. Something like .17 HMR/WSM? .22 Magnum? Or is a centerfire round appropriate? He's 12 now and doesn't have a whole lot of trouble with a .308 but we don't want something that's going to start a flinch. He also has a problem with itchy trigger finger, so a bolt action might be good __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

January 20, 2014, 10:31 PM	#2
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	You don't state any purpose but in general the .223 is the next logical step from the .22lr. You are also correct that between those falls the rimfire magnums. Some might consider those the next logical step but I find both pretty much niche rounds. Great when you need but not that great if you can use something else. Then there are the other small centerfire with the .22 Hornet leading that pack. Guns are limited and ammo will be less available. Not much if any reason to choose them over the .223. But at 12 he's got lots of room to grow. Don't be in too much of a hurry to move up from the .22lr. It's a great round for inexperienced as well for experienced. Just some tend to forget that as they supposedly grow up. Last edited by L_Killkenny; January 20, 2014 at 10:37 PM.

January 20, 2014, 10:56 PM	#4
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	I would say anything between 223 and 243 would be a good step up. Added noise but not so much recoil to cause flinching. If he is gearing up for hunting in the near future you should look at what he might hunt for. Base the choice on that, especially when $ is tight. Nothing burns more ammo money than a new rifle __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

January 21, 2014, 12:03 AM	#6
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	If you want a rifle to hunt deer, I'd get at least a .243 If you just want something fun to shoot, get the .223 __________________ One shot, one kill

January 21, 2014, 01:48 AM	#7
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	No hunting in our familiar - although my dad and I talked about going out and getting a turkey for Thanksgiving this year like this dad used to do. We're members of a private range that goes out to 200 yards and they're building a 300 yard bay. The long range ones are busy morning to close to we've never shot past 100. The .22 can do that for sure, but I think it's about learning to handle a little more power but also probably just about having a little fun. My .22 would have bored me when I was 12 -- it's almost boring now how accurate it is He's already talked about wanting this AK and that handgun, so it's about fun but in a weapon that has the ability to teach more about marksmanship. __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

January 20, 2014, 10:51 PM	#3
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	The 223 is a natural 'step up'. Low recoil, flat shooting and available anywhere. I have a CZ in 7.62x39 but wouldn't mind one in 223. Don't discount the single shot rifles either. They're half the cost and have the advantage of switching barrels for even less $$.

January 20, 2014, 11:08 PM	#5
DannyB1954 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2013 Location: Pahrump Nv USA Posts: 480	22 mag and 17HMR are not exactly inexpensive ammo. Almost the cost of center fire. The performance over good lr ammo isn't that great. I would go 223. or 9mm carbine.

January 21, 2014, 02:25 AM	#8
Againstthewind Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Posts: 60	Flinch I don't know if it helps, but I had a little bit of a flinch when I was twelve and shooting the 30-06. We all went from .22 to 30-06, not sure if its the best but its what he had. My dad put a penny on the end of the rifle and would either have me dry fire or live fire (but I wouldn't know which) trying to keep the penny on the barrel. It took my mind of the recoil and seemed to work for me. I need to try it with his .338 Mag that makes me flinchy now. There are all kinds of things that you can do with a .22 to keep from being bored. We would draw pictures on the target, shoot candles out, split bullets with on a knife, etc. Hopefully there is some place to do that kindof thing safely, too. Range shooting could get boring without a competition or something.

January 21, 2014, 03:30 AM	#9
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	what we did That's what we did with bamaboy. In no time he was breaking clay targets on the berm at 100 yd plus. My only reservation is that I would go with a bolt rifle of some kind rather than an AR or semi platform, his 10/22 duly noted.

January 21, 2014, 04:06 AM	#10
MarkDozier Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2010 Posts: 363	You need to get your brother into the junior small bore program somewhere. It will open a world of shooting to him and teach him priceless skills.

January 21, 2014, 08:27 AM	#11
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 908	If I was a 12 year old that wanted to shoot a bunch with a caliber that had more umph than a .22, the CZ 527 in 7.62x39 would look really nice if one could be found. The ammunition is affordable, the rifle is small, light, and a quality firearm he will enjoy for many years. A .223 bolt action would seem the next logical step up, ammunition prices are not the greatest on it, but a lot milder than the .308 and a little cheaper to feed.

January 21, 2014, 10:01 AM	#12
bt380 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Posts: 331	If your stepping up to a 17hmr, they struggle slight winds. If you et one, get the Savage 93R17 BTVS 17 HMR. It has a better barrel for target shooting than some of the other Savage 17's. The Marlin has great reviews and goes neck-neck with Savage. The Savage is about $400 unless you buy the F version for about $200. The magnum versions are a bit more spendy and ammo is harder to find. The 17 Hornet has faster ballistics but still can't get past the wind issue and cost more in general. - The 223 is a great option, especially if you get into reloading.

January 21, 2014, 11:13 AM	#14
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	I would suggest a single shot rifle. H&R Handi-Rifle for instance. H&R is a reasonably inexpensive well built rifle. Although ammo for any center fire caliber these days isn't inexpensive._{keep that in mind when making your selection}_There's some Handi-Rifles available with or without barrel sights and its offered in Youth Models also. FWIW: Its a nice center fire rifle for a young man just starting to get involved in the Shooting Sports. (See the Link provided.) http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/rifles/handirifle.asp

January 21, 2014, 11:27 AM	#15
Bozz10mm Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2013 Location: Central Texas Posts: 287	If you are not going to be doing competitive target shooting, I would suggest your next step up should be an AR such as the M&P 15 Sport, or DPMS Sportical. The fun factor would be huge over a bolt action.

January 22, 2014, 12:11 PM	#19
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	How about a pistol caliber lever action rifle? Lots more power, not too much recoil, and what kid doesn't like a cowboy gun. The suggestions to have him get involved in a .22 training or competition event is probably more important and entertaining than just getting another plinking gun. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

January 22, 2014, 08:11 PM	#20
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	Sorry Brian, I don't know where you got your numbers at but they aren't even remotely accurate. By your numbers the HMR would have chip shot range of 300-400 yards and the .22M would be a certified deer gun. In reality the HMR is more like double the range (200 yards) on small critters and paper. The .22M has about a 50 yard trajectory and power advantage. Sure you can stretch their ranges, heck I'll stretch a .22LR out to 200 yards, but in no way do the rimfire magnums come anywhere close to the advantages you give them.